tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder) (12/14/85)
I made two separate posting due to the vast difference in subject matter. Lord willing, I will be spending a month in Europe doing some consulting work in January. I will be located in Vienna, Austria for a month or two or three. If I receive enough feedback from this posting I am willing to take time to inquire of the major European Companys as to what their hiring practice is. I am also open to suggestions as to which companys I should contact. I would also like some feedback as to what information, people on the net are looking for. I am schedule to leave for Vienna on the 6th of January 1986, therefore please respond as soon as possible. If you send a reply after the 4th of January 1986, send it to seismo!mcvax!iiasavax!tlr. Some food for thought follows: You should be aware of the following items when considering an overseas position. 1. If you are married and have children, where will the children attend school. If you are working for a European company, the cost of sending the children to an international school would be borne by you. If you are working for a U.S. Government Contractor, the children would attend a Department of Defense Dependants School. The cost of placing a child in an international school varies greatly, so I will not attempt to quote figures. 2. The housing in Europe in general is not like what we Americans are use to. The houses are smaller, you probably not find a house to rent at a price you can afford. Therefore, you will have to adapt to apartment life. 3. Apartments and houses are smaller than here in America, the main reason is the cost of land. Europe has less land than the USA and therefore it is higher in cost. 4. Salaries are lower in Europe than in the USA. 5. Kitchens are different. Again due to the fact that apartments tend to be smaller the refrigerator probably will not have a freezing compartment. Therefore, you will be doing food shopping alot more often than in the USA. 6. Most apartments in Europe do not have built in closets. The people use wardrobes. If you find an apartment where closets have been built in, you will have to 'buy' them from at previous tenant. If you do not the tenant or the landlord will tear them out. 7. Bedrooms are smaller, king and queen size beds will not fit in them. (A friend took his king size bed to Germany and the only place it would fit was the attic. Guess where he slept. That is correct, in the attic.) 8. Gasoline is roughly twice the price it is here. 9. You will not find unleaded gas in Europe, therefore you cannot take an American car that reguires unleaded gas into Europe. 10. Drunk Driving in Germany is a felony. (prison sentence) 11. Spouses have the hardest time adjusting to Europe. The spouse will need a work permit. If they do not know the native language, they most likely will not receive one. 12. Television tranmission is different, the set here will not work there. You would have to modify the television set. It still may not work due to the difference in line voltage and frequency. 13. Most stores in Germany and Austria are only open til noon on Saturday and closed on Sunday. During the week most stores close at 6:00PM. 14. What currency will the salary be paid in? Most companys will pay in the currency of the country they are in. Therefore, depending how strong the dollar is and what the exchange rate is, your salary will fluctuate in terms of worth in US Dollars. This can be a help or can be a hardship. 15. Personal computer equipment may not work or be allowed in the country. 16. Modems are different. Also, telephone service in metered in Europe therefore it is not the distance that you talk but for how long you talk. The same holds for computers. What is a local call now in the USA may cost a good deal more in Europe. 17. In some European countrys it is illegal to criticize the Government. 18. Will in a European country you are subject to their laws, and you may not have a freedom of speech. I have one final story. In 1983 my family and I spent some time in Japan. The shock of my one daughter's life came when she went to use the restroom at Narita Airport. She came running back out yelling at the top of her lungs. "Daddy, it is nothing but a hole in the floor." After, some anxious minutes we located a 'western' restroom. Believe me an instruction book with pictures would have been useful to figure out how to use a japanese restroom. I hope that this information is of use to some people on the net. Remember, changing jobs is an important decision. When a job change involves a move the decision is even more stressful and painful for family members. When you now throw in a move to a foreign culture and enviroment, you really will be tested. Consider your family's needs not just career goals. If you have children talk with them and explain to them about having to move. Get your spouse's input. Remember, that you are married to your spouse and have a God given duty to your children, you are not married to your career or the career goals that you have set for yourself. You can divorce your employer anytime by saying 'I quit'. You cannot do that with your family. Signed Terry L. Ridder Family (Terry, Deborah, Sarah, Jenny, and Pieter Nicolaas) -- Terry L. Ridder 401 Cherry Lane E301 Laurel, Maryland 20707 UUCP: seismo!mimsy.umd.edu!tlr OR seismo!neurad!terry UUCP: seismo!(mimsy.umd.edu|neurad)!bilbo!(root|tlr) ARPA: tlr@maryland PHONE: 301-490-2248 (home)
ray@othervax.UUCP (Raymond D. Dunn) (12/16/85)
In article <2561@umcp-cs.UUCP> tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder)
writes a long sermon on the dangers of the big bad world to the naive
American traveller, and how we should treat our wives and families.
Frankly I dont want to spend my time or yours going through this
point by point, but I would like to say:
1) The technical info he gave re phones, cars etc, is in general,
reasonably accurate, except that the metering of phones is distance
dependant just as in North America, but including "local" calls.
2) The "info" he gave re housing & kitchens & fridges & king-size
beds & closets & etc, only reflects *his* experience, is not even a
generalisation, and can all be contradicted by counter examples: the
largest apartment I have ever lived in was in the UK, the smallest
(as a guest), in the US. It is not practically possible to "modify"
a TV set to receive any of the several transmission standards used in
Europe. In general, these are technically superior to those used in
North America.
3) Whether or not the cost of your children's schooling must be borne
by you, depends on private arrangements made between you and your
prospective employer. The more mature family immerses itself into
the local culture and sends their children to a local language
school, a huge educational opportunity for yourselves and your
children. I now have two bilingual achieving children.
4) Although I can think of no Western European country where it is
currently illegal to criticize the Government, it is neither polite
nor wise to criticize ones host when a guest in any environment.
5) Nothing need be a "shock" to either you or your family if you
*learn* about the culture you are visiting, plan accordingly, and
dont expect that culture to either be like, or *want* to be like,
your own.
Followups to net.followup
Ray Dunn. ..philabs!micomvax!othervax!raymat@amdahl.UUCP (Mike Taylor) (12/19/85)
Just a few commments on European assignments: > Some food for thought follows: > You should be aware of the following items when considering an overseas > position. > 1. If you are married and have children, where will the children attend > school. If you are working for a European company, the cost of sending > the children to an international school would be borne by you. If you > are working for a U.S. Government Contractor, the children would attend > a Department of Defense Dependants School. The cost of placing a child > in an international school varies greatly, so I will not attempt to quote > figures. On the other hand, depending on the country and the age of the children, you might simply send them to a local school. Many Europeans move and many school systems are prepared to stretch several points to cope with language and culture issues. (Presuming you are in an urban area). > 2. The housing in Europe in general is not like what we Americans are > use to. The houses are smaller, you probably not find a house to rent > at a price you can afford. Therefore, you will have to adapt to apartment > life. If you are only there for a short while, this is true. However, many countries have subsidy programs that help the housing problem if you are going to be there long enough to consider buying a house. > 9. You will not find unleaded gas in Europe, therefore you cannot take > an American car that reguires unleaded gas into Europe. Since Germany is leading a move to catalytic converters, this is no longer as true as a couple of years ago. However, I can't imagine why you would want to take an American car to Europe, when desirable European cars are half the price they are in the U.S. Buy one there and bring it back - but make sure you get a model that can later be imported into the U.S. I know that many will sell you a car that runs on leaded gas and then add the converter prior to U.S. shipment. > 10. Drunk Driving in Germany is a felony. (prison sentence) As it should be. There are many creative penalties in Europe for drunk driving, universally humiliating and painful. > 11. Spouses have the hardest time adjusting to Europe. The spouse will > need a work permit. If they do not know the native language, they most > likely will not receive one. Probably the worst problem is finding friends, especially if spouse doesn't work. > 12. Television tranmission is different, the set here will not work > there. You would have to modify the television set. It still may not > work due to the difference in line voltage and frequency. You are better off to rent or buy a local set, it is unreasonable to modify a U.S. set - it means so many changes that the result would be a new set, practically. On the other hand, the European systems have much better pictures (resolution, color). > 15. Personal computer equipment may not work or be allowed in the > country. Power supply differences exist. I don't know who in West won't allow PCs. > 16. Modems are different. Also, telephone service in metered in Europe > therefore it is not the distance that you talk but for how long you > talk. The same holds for computers. What is a local call now in the USA > may cost a good deal more in Europe. In some countries (Germany, for example) the PTT has a monopoly on modems and only rents them at very high prices. This makes telecomputing very expensive when high phone costs are also factored in. > 17. In some European countrys it is illegal to criticize the Government. Only in the Eastern Bloc countries. > 18. Will in a European country you are subject to their laws, and you > may not have a freedom of speech. Only in the Eastern Bloc countries. It all depends on what you expect to get out of it. -- Mike Taylor ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,sun}!amdahl!mat [ This may not reflect my opinion, let alone anyone else's. ]
dave@ecrcvax.UUCP (David Morton) (12/22/85)
Summary: Expires: References: <umcp-cs.2561> Sender: Reply-To: dave@ecrcvax.UUCP (David Morton) Followup-To: Distribution: net Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munchen, W. Germany Keywords: In article <umcp-cs.2561> tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder) writes: > >Lord willing, I will be spending a month in Europe doing some consulting >work in January. Good for you - give me a call and we can clear up some of the untruths below. >2. The housing in Europe in general is not like what we Americans are >use to. The houses are smaller, you probably not find a house to rent >at a price you can afford. Therefore, you will have to adapt to apartment >life. This is a very general statement. Prices and size vary according to location. >5. Kitchens are different. Again due to the fact that apartments tend to be >smaller the refrigerator probably will not have a freezing compartment. >Therefore, you will be doing food shopping alot more often than in the USA. But most houses in Germany/Austria have a large cellar and the the freezer is usually placed there. >6. Most apartments in Europe do not have built in closets. The people use >wardrobes. If you find an apartment where closets have been built in, you >will have to 'buy' them from at previous tenant. If you do not the tenant >or the landlord will tear them out. If they are built-in then they were probably built-in by the landlord and constitute a part of the flat. >7. Bedrooms are smaller, king and queen size beds will not fit in them. >(A friend took his king size bed to Germany and the only place it would >fit was the attic. Guess where he slept. That is correct, in the attic.) How big is a king size bed ? Either it was larger than 220*220cm or your friend rented a very small flat. >9. You will not find unleaded gas in Europe, therefore you cannot take >an American car that reguires unleaded gas into Europe. Not true. All stations on all German Autobahnen supply lead free petrol. There are lead-free stations in all German cities. In Austria the situation is even better due to a recent change in the law. >10. Drunk Driving in Germany is a felony. (prison sentence) Wrong again, unless you kill someone. You stand a good chance of loosing your licence and paying an enormous fine (quite rightly so) >11. Spouses have the hardest time adjusting to Europe. The spouse will >need a work permit. If they do not know the native language, they most >likely will not receive one. Wrong yet again (Say why do want to come to Europe at all ?) At the last count we have about 25 non-German nationals working here. Of those about 3 can speak German. The other 22 got a work permit by just filling out the appropriate form. >17. In some European countrys it is illegal to criticize the Government. Name one such country in Western Europe. >18. Will in a European country you are subject to their laws, and you >may not have a freedom of speech. I believe this is also true of foreigners visiting the US. >I hope that this information is of use to some people on the net. Most of this information is useless and created a very false picture of Western Europe. -- Dave Morton Tel. + (49) 89 - 92699 - 139 CSNET: dave%ecrcvax.uucp@germany.csnet UUCP: seismo!mcvax!unido!ecrcvax!dave