car@trux.UUCP (Chris Rende) (10/10/89)
Here is the summary of Email received from my two posting about "Unix PC networking" and "Call for information on PC-NFS". car. Here is my original posting: > We will be implementing a fairly large, multi-server/multi-site network. > > Systems to be networked include PC's (>100) and several unix systems (~6). > The PC's need access to file servers, 3270 gateways, and direct access > to other unix systems on the network. > > We want a unix-based network OS and are currently looking at Banyan Vines > to run on a 386 box or a Banyan server. >From edsews!uunet!hpcndr.cnd.hp.com!jason Wed Oct 4 08:37:11 1989 remote from rphroy Are you really stuck on using a network OS, or are you willing to look at something like LAN Manager on Unix (LM/X)? LM/X, available from several companies (like HP), lets your file and print servers live directly on your UNIX hosts. LM/X client software should include Telnet capability as well, giving you connectivity to the UNIX systems directly. Also, several UNIX vendors (HP included) provide 3270 gateway software on their UNIX systems; you may need to use some fancy termulation software on the PC, but it should work. You might contact your local HP sales critter to see what he or she can put together for you. You might be surprised as to what the connectivity picture can look like... Good luck; please send me your summary of results if you decide not to post it. -- This is not an official statement of Hewlett-Packard Corp., and does not necessarily reflect the views of HP. It is provided completely without warranty of any kind. Lawyers take 3d10 damage and roll a saving throw vs. ego attack. Jason Zions Hewlett-Packard Corp. Colorado Networks Division 3404 E. Harmony Road Mail Stop 102 Ft. Collins, CO 80525-9599 {known_world}!hplabs!hpcndm!jason or jason%hpcndm@hplabs.HP.COM >From cfctech!mailrus!wuarchive!texbell!cs.utexas.edu!uunet.UU.NET!ldc-net!rod Wed Oct 4 08:37:12 1989 remote from rphroy I'd take a look at Sun's or FTP Software's PC/NFS packages. You get the same DOS file server capability, plus access to all of Unix ( the Banyan hides anything useful). You can also use any Unix box which runs NFS as a server. I've been using Banyan since 4/89, after using PC/NFS for about a year, and have nothing good to say about it. rod -------------------------------------------------------------------- Rod Merry Email: uunet!ldc-net!rod Lee Data Phone: 612-828-0323 >From edsews!uunet!mimsy!oddjob.uchicago.edu!nucsrl!chinet.uucp!les Wed Oct 4 08:37:14 1989 remote from rphroy I'm working with a system of about the same size (10 unix machines - 90 PC's) running AT&T Starlan and it provides all of the functions you mention. We use a PC with a CXI (now owned by Novell) board as a 3270 gateway using netbios to talk to the other PC's directly, but you could use a board in a unix machine instead. There are 1M and 10M versions of Starlan - ours is the 1M and it struggles with the load during busy parts of the day. The 10M version should handle it nicely, and there are bridges availble to connect 10 <-> 1 and routers for X.25 or fiber links if you exceed the physical size limits of the twisted-pair or coax connections. >Any input regarding Token Ring vs. Ethernet would also be appreciated. The 10M Starlan is basically Ethernet over twisted pair wiring (coax will work too), but it uses the OSI protocols. You can get it for AT&T 3B2's & 386 unix as the transport for RFS, uucp and terminal session links as well as the DOS Server (a seperate piece of unix software). The PC client and server software should run on anything that is reasonably IBM compatible. There is also a nice mail interface for the PC's called PMX-Starmail that uses unix mail as the transport. Les Mikesell les@chinet.chi.il.us >From edsews!uunet!dsinc.dsi.com!wells!mdi386!bruce Wed Oct 4 08:37:18 1989 remote from rphroy Please make sure and repost your responses.. I am trying to implement something somewhat smaller, and would like to see what you are doing.. I am setting up as follows: 1 Arix 875 1 NCR 32/600 2 IBM RT (115 and 135) 12 various PC systems This is being set up on Ethernet, with PC-NFS and TCP/IP. I would like to have used the DOS SERVICES on the IBM, but maybe later. The users on the PC's do not generally run applications that share data, so for that they will log onto one of the various UNIX machines. However, they will use Wordprocessing, Spreadsheets, etc. on the PC's. bruce --- ========================================================================= Bruce A. McIntyre, McIntyre Designs, Inc. VOICE(215)322-1895 143 Bridgetown Pike, Langhorne, Pa. 19047 DATA (215)357-2915 {wells|lgnp1}!mdi386!bruce bruce@mdi386 tbit+ >From cfctech!hacgate.scg.hac.com!hacgate.scg.hac.com:ashtate!unisol!haral!elroy! Thu Oct 5 08:48:22 1989 remote from rphroy In article <271@trux.UUCP> you write: >Does anyone have any experience to share regarding Vines or similar products? I am not using Vines, but I interface with a PC running Vines and all I can say is, am I glad that I am not running Vines! Vines does not seem to talk straight TCP/IP among other Vines machines, and, the machine that actually has a TCP/IP service loaded on, seems to be loosing the service fairly frequently, requiring reboots or restarts of the software. -- --Haral Tsitsivas UniSolutions Associates (213) 542-0068 ...!uunet!ashtate!unisol!haral --- --Haral Tsitsivas UniSolutions Associates (213) 542-0068 ...!uunet!ashtate!unisol!haral >From cfctech!mailrus!wuarchive!texbell!cs.utexas.edu!uunet.UU.NET!cucstud!tfd!tons61!harrys Thu Oct 5 08:48:25 1989 remote from rphroy Your best bet is to find a *nix system that allows or supports NFS. If you wish to network the PC's into it. Some other TCP/IP products can do this but I have PC-NFS and NFS from my vendor on my UNIX machine. It works great! For the cost, however, you may want to check the public source archive for the public domain version of TCP/IP and load that on the PC's and save the cost of purchasing software (you still need the controler cards). Lator gator. -- Harry Skelton - Senior Systems Administrator - U.S. Dept. of Transportation ..!attctc!tons61!harrys ..!obdient!tons61!harrys ..!tfd!tons61!harrys [ Views expressed by Harry Skelton are not those of the US Gov. or CBSI ] >From edsews!uunet!ukc!vision.uucp!davel Thu Oct 5 08:48:33 1989 remote from rphroy This company has commercial product "PC-Connect" and others which integrate Dos and Unix systems over networks. I can send details if you wish. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * I I Dave Lockwood These opinions are shareware. * II Technical Consultant If you like them, send $10... * I * * * ** * davel@vision.UUCP VisionWare Ltd, * * * * ...!uunet!mcvax!ukc!vision!davel Leeds Business Park, ** ** +44-532-529292 X2439 Leeds, LS27 0JG, * * United Kingdom VISIONWARE DOS/UNIX Integration -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From edsews!uunet!fciva!dag Thu Oct 5 08:48:39 1989 remote from rphroy We are running a smaller version of something similar here. We have 3 unix machines (Prime EXLs, 386 MultiBusII boxes. These could easily be replaced with a perhaps twice that number of fast 386 AT machines). The EXLs are running AT&T System V.3.1, TCP/IP over ethernet, and Locus Computing's Merge 386 DOS under unix product. Each EXL has an average of 16 Wyse 60s which are used in native mode primarily for DB access, but also can be used for light DOS word processing and spreadsheet work in PC Scancode mode. We have the PC-Enhanced keyboards, so the terminals behave exactly like small PCs. This allowed us to keep a lid on the number of PCs sitting idle on desks. We are also running Locus Computing's PC-Interface product on about 20 286 AT class machines. This provides multiple host file service, printer service, remote execution, and terminal emulation on the PCs. The terminal emulation is inflexable, but that was easily fixed with SuperKey macros. The file, printer, and remote execution services are very well implemented from the PC user's point of view. I would have liked some better diagnotics in the host software on the unix machines. The services use udp/ip over the same thin ethernet. One of the EXLs, with associated terminals and PCs is in California (we are located in Virginia). Currently we are using uucp over Telebit Trailblazer+s to move data between sites. In particular, I wrote an lp interface script that does: cat $file | uux -n - "$machine!lp -s -o$option -t$usetitle -n$copies" so that printers at remote sites are transparently accessable. I have a similar interface script on the two EXLs here that uses rcp and remsh to accomplish the same thing over ethernet. Eventually, I suspect we will set up a SLIP connection over either T2500s or a leased line for the California site. This would allow PCs at one site to log in a disk drive at the remote site. It would be slow, but it would work. All this software, and the hardware except for the PCs and terminals, was purchased as a package from Prime, but is available separately elsewhere. The first generation was buggy, but the current software releases are quite good, and single sourcing has support advantages. I've been quite pleased with what we've accomplished, my management is mostly pleased, and a colleage who is an ex IBM-mainframer is amazed at the cost/performance ratio we've achieved, even with paying double high prices to Prime for the hardware. This is probably more information than you expected. Let me know if you have any questions. Dan --- Daniel A. Graifer Franklin Capital Investments uunet!fciva!dag 7900 Westpark Drive, Suite A130 (703)821-3244 McLean, VA 22102 >From edsews!sun!sunburn.West.Sun.COM!mcdphx!zztop!xroads!ronnie Fri Oct 6 08:54:05 1989 remote from rphroy I am sysadmin at IDEA Courier in Tempe, Arizona and we currently have 120 pc's (of varying types) with Sun's pcnfs and using Sun 3/260's and Sun 3/280's as servers. We also hook the pc's up via coax to a patch panel with direct access to our 3270 mainframe. The pc's have a 3270 emulator and users can switch between using pc-dos, telnet, 3270 and ftp/nfs. If you need more detail on our current set-up, just let me know, but the Sun's used as servers seem to provide out needs adequately and without much problem. (the biggest problem is notifying the pc's when the Sun is going down for maintenance or sending mail to user's on the pc's and having them KNOW they have mail. We have Lifeline mail but it doesn't tell the pc user when he has mail if he is doing another application. I guess the biggest problem is that the pc's are not multitasking..... Ronnie --- \ / C r o s s r o a d s C o m m u n i c a t i o n s /\ (602) 941-2005 300|1200 Baud 24 hrs/day / \ hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!xroads!ronnie >From edsews!mailrus!uflorida!novavax!branch!branch.FIDONET.ORG!wcr Fri Oct 6 16:46:33 1989 remote from rphroy I work for Winn Dixie Stores in Florida. We are using an NCR Tower 650 running Unix System 5 with our PC on a Token Ring netowrk. We also have a 3174 controller (local) on the ring for use with the emulator. For the most part, everything runs fine on the netowrk, the tower is a file/print server. And the pc's, mostly PS2/ mod 25's are work stations. We even have a cron backup the user files at 2 a.m. IBM's 3270 emulator is designed to work on a token ring, and a station is needed for Gateway functions. The Tower runs TFS Consumer (I beleive..) and the PC's are running PCLAN. Unfortunately, I don't have any expirence with Vines or eithernet. Sorry I couldn't have been more help. Bill --------------------------------------------------------------------+ "Out on a Limb in The Branch Office...." ] ] Fidonet : 1:369/11 The Branch Office. (branch.FIDONET.ORG) ] 1:369/0 Treasure Coast Net. ] UUCP : {sun!hoptoad, attctc, <internet>!mthvax}!ankh, ] gatech!uflorida!novavax!branch!wcr ] ] INTERNET: wcr@branch.FIDONET.ORG -or- wcr@f11.n369.z1.FIDONET.ORG ] BBS : +1 305 979-2073 ] 'I was asking for it.....' ] --------------------------------------------------------------------+ >From edsews!mailrus!gatech!harvard!spdcc!esegue!johnl Sat Oct 7 10:43:55 1989 remote from rphroy Remote files, rlogin, rsh, rcp, printing, telnet, ftp. Backup and email available at extra cost. You want gateways, telnet or rlogin to some other machine. It understands ARP and packet forwarding so you are a real member of your TCP network, even if it is as large as the Internet. There is a developer's kit available at extra cost that lets you implement network applications of your own. >Can the PC component of PC-NFS run on XT's? Yes. >How much memory does the PC component of PC-NFS use? Too much, nearly 100K, but I don't think you'll find anything else as functional that takes much less. >How does the performance of PC-NFS compare with other PC servers? It feels pretty respectable. I haven't benchmarked it, though others certainly have. >How does PC-NFS interact with the host Unix machine? It looks just like any other NFS client. At a place where I consult, we have a network of about 25 Suns and 386/ix machines running NFS, and several PCs that mount filesystems from any and all of the other hosts. There is a special daemon for PC-NFS that provides login validation and printer service. But you only need to run one copy per ether, not a copy per machine. PC NFS is also supposed to work via SLIP over serial links, but I've never tried it. I suspect that zmodem would be a lot faster. FTP Software in Wakefield MA also has a PC version of NFS which supports a wider variety of PC hardware. Since FTP's primary line of business is TCP/IP for PCs, while PC NFS is definitely a sideline for Sun, I'd strongly consider FTP. >From edsews!uunet!ukc!ibmpcug.co.uk!dwight Sat Oct 7 10:43:58 1989 remote from rphroy At The Independent (a daily national newspaper in the UK), we are using Sun's PC-NFS to link about 100 PCs with nine Sun servers running SunOS (Unix). We love it, although there are some problems. I can't think of anything better for this particular kind of need. I am writing a paper on the subject for the Sun UK Unix Users Group. If you're interested in getting the paper, or in more information, let me know. Questions like yours about the differences between Ethernet and Token Ring are best answered elsewhere, like in the various trade journals. We run Ethernet. It's fine. --Dwight Ernest (Best to reply to dwight%independent.uucp@ukc.ac.uk) >From edsews!ames!pacbell!dumbcat!marc Mon Oct 9 09:27:12 1989 remote from rphroy In article <274@trux.UUCP> you write: In general, what services does PC-NFS provide for the PC user? (I.e., file sharing, printer services, EMail, modems, rlogin, gateways,...) PC-NFS allows you to define virtual disk drives with the actual disk drive existion upon the NFS server. The package also comes with FTP, Telnet (with a brain damaged VT100 implementation), rcp, and some other unix like utilities tailored toward dos. Printers on the server can also be used, however several NFS versions were buggy in that you could only spool to a printer using the ``net print'' command -- you could not have a program talk to the printer directly. Can the PC component of PC-NFS run on XT's? Yes. How much memory does the PC component of PC-NFS use? With PC-NFS drivers loaded it takes up aout 80K. That jumps to over 100 (I for get ho buch over a hundred) when the print spooler is enabled. How does the performance of PC-NFS compare with other PC servers? PC-NFS is client only. The assumption is that you have a Server box somewhere on your network. With a Vax 780 running VMS and Wollengongs NFS implementation the disk access is about the same as a slow floppie. Using a Sun-3/280 as the server makes disk access a little bit slower than the local hard disk. It's fast enough to use when you must have shared files. How does PC-NFS interact with the host Unix machine? It's just another NFS client. It can access any exported filesystem from any NFS server. It can use Yellow pages. There is an authentication daemon that comes with PC-NFS (in source form) that you must put on one of your hosts. Putting the daemon on the YP master seems to be the best way. Hope this helps. --marc // Marco S. Hyman {ames,pyramid,sun}!pacbell!dumbcat!marc -- Christopher A. Rende Central Cartage (Nixdorf/Pyramid/SysV/BSD4.3) uunet!edsews!rphroy!trux!car Multics,DTSS,Unix,Shortwave,Scanners,StarTrek trux!car@uunet.uu.net Minix,PC/XT,Mac+,TRS-80 Model I: Buy Sell Trade "I don't ever remember forgetting anything." - Chris Rende