medin@NSIPO.NASA.GOV ("Milo S. Medin", NASA ARC NSI Project Office) (06/07/90)
Folks, it appears that the ARPANET has quietly passed away into the annals of network history. June 1 was the official cut off date I believe, and I did some traceroute's to a net 10 host and not even the DDN Core knew about a route to net 10! Not even the Mailbridge at BBN in Cambridge. Script started on Thu Jun 7 01:11:44 1990 cincsac [37]: traceroute -g moffett-fld-mb.ddn.mil 10.0.0.51 traceroute to 10.0.0.51 (10.0.0.51), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets 1 arc-nas-gw (128.102.16.5) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 2 arc-psn-gw (192.52.195.6) 20 ms 0 ms 20 ms 3 MOFFETT-FLD-MB.DDN.MIL (26.20.0.16) 60 ms 80 ms 60 ms 4 MOFFETT-FLD-MB.DDN.MIL (26.20.0.16) 60 ms !N 40 ms !N 60 ms !N cincsac [38]: traceroute -g cambridge-mb.ddn.mil 10.0.0.51 traceroute to 10.0.0.51 (10.0.0.51), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets 1 arc-nas-gw (128.102.16.5) 20 ms 20 ms 0 ms 2 arc-psn-gw (192.52.195.6) 0 ms 20 ms 0 ms 3 CAMBRIDGE-MB.DDN.MIL (26.1.0.49) 560 ms 500 ms 640 ms 4 CAMBRIDGE-MB.DDN.MIL (26.1.0.49) 580 ms !N 480 ms !N 480 ms !N cincsac [39]: exit exit script done on Thu Jun 7 01:12:36 1990 Perhaps a moment of silence is in order... Thanks, Milo PS For those of you not familiar with traceroute, the first shows BMILAMES sending back a network unreachable message for net 10, and the latter is a net unreachable from a gateway at BBN. The -g option specifies a source route through the MILNET gateway. NSFNET doesn't know about it either...
louie@SAYSHELL.UMD.EDU (Louis A. Mamakos) (06/09/90)
Milo, If I'm not mistaken, the last production PSN on the ARPANET is/was PSN #17 at the University of Maryland. It was but a shell of a network before its time had come.. the only connection being an IST to the Princeton PSN, with no host ports still in use. A network with no user ports. I had the honor/pleasure of turning off the power switch myself just a few days ago.. louie >Folks, it appears that the ARPANET has quietly passed away into the annals >of network history. June 1 was the official cut off date I believe, and I >did some traceroute's to a net 10 host and not even the DDN Core knew >about a route to net 10! Not even the Mailbridge at BBN in Cambridge.
hwb@MERIT.EDU (Hans-Werner Braun) (06/09/90)
Milo: There is no need to be mourning. (D)ARPA did a great service to the networking community over the last many years in developing and providing a research facility that emerged into operational infrastructure. Many spinoffs were created, both in the government (including your NASA Science Network) as well as other places, including internationally. As we all know, DARPA is still continuing to do network research, that should yield further results and benefits to the networking community. There have never been more users and equipment using technology developed for the ARPANET than there are today. The ideas, the spirit and the technological thrust of the ARPANET is surviving in its children. At DARPA and elsewhere. -- Hans-Werner
brian@ucsd.Edu (Brian Kantor) (06/09/90)
A few of us are sorta planning to hold a wake for the Arpanet at Usenix next week. We just haven't found the proper bar yet. - Brian
swb@DAINICHI.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Scott Brim) (06/10/90)
So are we going to follow through with the idea of running Net 10 in the Boston Computer Museum (hooked up to the Internet) or not??
jrr@scamp.concert.net (Joe Ragland) (06/10/90)
In article <9006101018.AA04161@chumley.TN.Cornell.EDU> swb@DAINICHI.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Scott Brim) writes: >So are we going to follow through with the idea of running Net 10 in the >Boston Computer Museum (hooked up to the Internet) or not?? Gee Scott, that's sorta close to the water's edge. A few ICMP redirects and ole net 10 might just slide into Boston Harbor (that's "haba" to the natives). Actually, sounds like a great idea to me. --joe
jbvb@VAX.FTP.COM (James B. Van Bokkelen) (06/11/90)
From: Scott Brim <swb@dainichi.tn.cornell.edu> So are we going to follow through with the idea of running Net 10 in the Boston Computer Museum (hooked up to the Internet) or not?? I don't know how receptive they'd be, or what their criteria for noteworthy hardware is - when MIT shut down the last of the ITS 10s (actually 2020s) last month, I was listening to someone there talk about trying to give MC (KL10) to the museum, and being told "we wouldn't mind having the front panel". MC went to Sweden (a student computer club in ?Malmo?), where I believe it is running again. If they are interested, MIT is presently looking for a home for 10.2.0.6, among others (10.0.0.44 is gone), but if they aren't, maybe we should try to get ARPA to give two or three IMPs to the Swedish hackers... James B. VanBokkelen FTP Software Inc. jbvb@ftp.com 617-246-0900
kwe@bu-it.bu.edu (Kent England) (06/12/90)
In article <9006101018.AA04161@chumley.TN.Cornell.EDU>, swb@DAINICHI.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Scott Brim) writes: > So are we going to follow through with the idea of running Net 10 in the > Boston Computer Museum (hooked up to the Internet) or not?? I think it is a great idea. If you know a contact there, I would talk to them. But if that doesn't pan out, it shouldn't be too hard to create a net 10 routing loop inside BBN somewhere. I think an occasional ping packet would feel right at home wandering around inside 10 Moulton Street somewhere. :-) Does that seem appropriately respectful? (Certainly no disrespect intended to BBN.) --Kent England, Boston University
mcc@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Merton Campbell Crockett) (06/12/90)
Maybe we could get three systems and have one set-up as "cambridge-mb", one as "reston-mb", and one as "moffett-mb". We could then have a perpetual trace- route running with constant redirects between Cambridge and Reston with Moffett as the, occassional, side-line judge. Those on the ARPA side may not appreciate the humour of the last days of this net as seen from the MILNET side--unfortunately one has attendency to remember the wierd or worst events. Merton
CSYSMAS@OAC.UCLA.EDU (Michael Stein) (06/12/90)
Net 10 is a class A network number. As we run out of network numbers someone is going to need it, don't stick it in some museum. I'm sure that if anyone asked there would be lots of volunteers who could turn in several class B network numbers...
don@USNA.NAVY.MIL ("Don Garner ", CADIG STAFF) (06/13/90)
Are there no comments on what it means to lose ARPANET?
haverty@BBN.COM (Jack Haverty) (06/13/90)
Perhaps instead of retiring #10 to a museum, we could have a ceremony at Interop where the number is officially "retired", and a banner hoisted to the ceiling - anybody volunteer to make a banner out of fishnet? Then net 10 could be assigned to be used to create a bunch of class B numbers for aspiring neonetworks who want to follow in the Arpanet's footsteps (yes I know that's technically difficult). Jack Dan Lynch - are you listening....
wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu (Bill Wisner) (06/14/90)
CSYSMAS@OAC.UCLA.EDU (Michael Stein) writes: >Net 10 is a class A network number. As we run out of network >numbers someone is going to need it, don't stick it in some >museum. Oh, come now. Nobody's big enough to need a class A network. Entities that have class A networks now didn't get them because they've got big networks; they got them for political reasons. MIT and Stanford were big with DARPA. MERIT runs NSFNET. It'll be a long, long time before anyone with a class A net manages to accumulate sixteen million hosts. Bill Wisner <wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu> Gryphon Gang Fairbanks AK 99775 Any member introducing a dog into the Society's premises shall be liable to a fine of one pound. Any animal leading a blind person shall be deemed to be a cat. -- Rule 46, Oxford Union Society, London
kasten@europa.interlan.COM (Frank Kastenholz) (06/14/90)
> From tcp-ip-RELAY@NIC.DDN.MIL Thu Jun 14 08:37:24 1990 > From: Jack Haverty <haverty@BBN.Com> > Subject: Re: Mourning of the passing of the ARPANET > To: CSYSMAS@oac.ucla.edu > Cc: haverty@BBN.Com, tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil > Mail-System-Version: <MacEMail_1.2.2@BBN.COM> > > Perhaps instead of retiring #10 to a museum, we could have a ceremony > at Interop where the number is officially "retired", and a banner hoisted > to the ceiling - anybody volunteer to make a banner out of fishnet? > Then net 10 could be assigned to be used to create a bunch of class B > numbers for aspiring neonetworks who want to follow in the Arpanet's > footsteps (yes I know that's technically difficult). > > Jack > > Dan Lynch - are you listening.... > How about officially assigning NET 10 to Interop - then it could be brought out of retirement each year for all of the newcomers to look at - sort of like the IMP last year. Maybe during the "off season" Interop could keep 2 PC's running in a backroom on some Ethernet, pinging each other - on NET 10. Frank Kastenholz Racal Interlan
hwb@MERIT.EDU (Hans-Werner Braun) (06/14/90)
>Oh, come now. Nobody's big enough to need a class A network. Entities >that have class A networks now didn't get them because they've got big >networks; they got them for political reasons. MIT and Stanford were >big with DARPA. MERIT runs NSFNET. It'll be a long, long time before >anyone with a class A net manages to accumulate sixteen million hosts. Your comment is misleading. Merit had a class A network number long before we had to do with NSFNET. The NSFNET backbone itself uses a Class B network number. The reason why Merit has a network number was exclusively on grounds of mapping addresses to the probably 200 or so packet switching nodes that Merit had in that state of Michigan at that time (now much more than 200). Potentially all those nodes map to what Merit calls "hosts" and those (several different) hosts can map to many "ports." Took Jon Postel and me quite a while to "fight" this out at that time. It was not possible to fit this into a Class B space. -- Hans-Werner
steve@cise.nsf.gov (Stephen Wolff) (06/15/90)
> Oh, come now. Nobody's big enough to need a class A network. Entities > that have class A networks now didn't get them because they've got big > networks; they got them for political reasons. MIT and Stanford were > big with DARPA. MERIT runs NSFNET. Merit had net 35 a long time before there was an NSFNET. Don't forget that the Merit Computer Network grew up contemporaneously with the ARPANET - and seems likely to outlast it by some time. -s
kmeyer@wrl.dec.com (Kraig Meyer) (06/15/90)
In article <1990Jun14.082236.16832@hayes.fai.alaska.edu> wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu (Bill Wisner) writes: ||Oh, come now. Nobody's big enough to need a class A network. Entities ||that have class A networks now didn't get them because they've got big ||networks; they got them for political reasons. MIT and Stanford were ||big with DARPA. MERIT runs NSFNET. For the record, Merit had its class A net number long before it had even considered running NSFnet. The network number Merit got for NSFnet was a class B net number. ***************************************************************************** Kraig Meyer kmeyer@wrl.dec.com On parole from the University of Southern California. All views expressed are my own and may or may not be the same as those of Digital Equipment Corp.
emv@math.lsa.umich.edu (Edward Vielmetti) (06/15/90)
In article <1990Jun14.212630.26295@wrl.dec.com> kmeyer@wrl.dec.com (Kraig Meyer) writes:
For the record, Merit had its class A net number long before it had
even considered running NSFnet. The network number Merit got for NSFnet
was a class B net number.
it's also a bit ironic that Merit schools are going to get off of the
class A net number and onto their own class B net(s), at least for
the parts of Merit which will no longer be behind the PDP-11 based
backbone structure (the design which required the class A net in
the first place). such a shame, I just printed up my Network 35
ID card....
--Ed
Edward Vielmetti, U of Michigan math dept <emv@math.lsa.umich.edu>
"i hear pdp-11's make good flowerpots"lefty@OBELIX.TWG.COM (06/15/90)
In <90Jun13.100238edt.190@staff.ecs.usna.navy.mil>, "Don Garner (CADIG STAFF) " <don@usna.navy.mil> writes: > Are there no comments on what it means to lose ARPANET? "Live in the future; it starting now." |<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>| | David N. Schlesinger || "When I have nothing to say, | | The Wollongong Group || my lips are sealed; | | Internet: Lefty@twg.com || say something once, | | POTS: 415/962-7219 || why say it again?" -- David Byrne | |<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>|
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) (06/15/90)
Just for interest sake... would someone on the Internet like to post a list of the other class A networks. Before any more of them disappear. I realise it's not likely to be useful to us folks in our little TCP-IP islands, but what the hell... -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' +1 713 274 5180. <peter@ficc.ferranti.com>
smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin) (06/15/90)
In article <9006141247.AA10456@europa.Com>, kasten@europa.interlan.COM (Frank Kastenholz) writes: > How about officially assigning NET 10 to Interop - then it could be brought out > of retirement each year for all of the newcomers to look at - sort of like > the IMP last year. Great idea, but make it operational. After all, the conference net needs a number; call it net 10, and all the private nets can be subnets of it. --Steve Bellovin
jrr@scamp.concert.net (Joe Ragland) (06/15/90)
In article <9006141247.AA10456@europa.Com>, kasten@europa.interlan.COM (Frank Kastenholz) writes: |> How about officially assigning NET 10 to Interop - then it could be brought out |> of retirement each year for all of the newcomers to look at - sort of like |> the IMP last year. Yea, maybe in good ham radio DXpedition style, Dan Lynch could issue a certificate for exchanging mail with a net 10 host at Interop?
jbvb@VAX.FTP.COM (James B. Van Bokkelen) (06/15/90)
How about officially assigning NET 10 to Interop - then it could be brought out of retirement each year for all of the newcomers to look at - sort of like the IMP last year..... Frank Kastenholz This is an excellent hack! I'll second it... jbvb
merlyn@iwarp.intel.com (Randal Schwartz) (06/16/90)
In article <43957@ism780c.isc.com>, johnan@mchale (John Antypas) writes: | A nice idea, but with all of the talk about address spacing becoming | hard to find, the idea of re-using 10 as a Class A, or splitting it into | 256 class B's needs to be considered. That's a lot of new customers | for Internet. Consider that net is over 65535 class C spaces! Do we | want to give Interop 16x10^6 addresses! Finding 65535 class C-type customers that all wanted to have their nets adjacent and one naming authority is a bit much. There isn't any way in the current software (pardon my ignorance if there is) to have non-adjacent subnets. You can only have "route to net 10" not "route to 10.11.23", unless you happen to have interfaces that are current net 10 subnets. Just to throw my vote in the ring, I don't know who Interop is, but if they had something to do with the early net, let'em have the number. By the time we need the 126'th class A address, we'll be hurting in other ways. :-) Just another net hacker, -- /=Randal L. Schwartz, Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 ==========\ | on contract to Intel's iWarp project, Beaverton, Oregon, USA, Sol III | | merlyn@iwarp.intel.com ...!any-MX-mailer-like-uunet!iwarp.intel.com!merlyn | \=Cute Quote: "Welcome to Portland, Oregon, home of the California Raisins!"=/
johnan@mchale.UUCP (06/16/90)
In article <9006141247.AA10456@europa.Com> kasten@europa.interlan.COM (Frank Kastenholz) writes: > >How about officially assigning NET 10 to Interop - then it could be brought out >of retirement each year for all of the newcomers to look at - sort of like >the IMP last year. Maybe during the "off season" Interop could keep 2 PC's >running in a backroom on some Ethernet, pinging each other - on NET 10. > A nice idea, but with all of the talk about address spacing becoming hard to find, the idea of re-using 10 as a Class A, or splitting it into 256 class B's needs to be considered. That's a lot of new customers for Internet. Consider that net is over 65535 class C spaces! Do we want to give Interop 16x10^6 addresses! John Antypas / Interactive Systems Corp. uucp: ...!uunet!ism.isc.com!johnan Internet: johnan@ism.isc.com All statements above responsability of the author.
brian@cup.portal.COM (06/16/90)
We held the wake for net 10 at the Usenix conference, and toasted it well. We got well toasted ourselves. A good time was had by all reminiscing about all the old good times, fun, and hacks that were inspired by the grandaddy network of them all. Bye-bye Arpanet - it was swell! - Brian
mei_ssner@paperboy.UUCP (06/16/90)
In article <43957@ism780c.isc.com> johnan@mchale.ism.isc.com (John Antypas) writes: | In article <9006141247.AA10456@europa.Com> kasten@europa.interlan.COM (Frank Kastenholz) writes: | > | >How about officially assigning NET 10 to Interop - then it could be brought out | >of retirement each year for all of the newcomers to look at - sort of like | >the IMP last year. Maybe during the "off season" Interop could keep 2 PC's | >running in a backroom on some Ethernet, pinging each other - on NET 10. | > | A nice idea, but with all of the talk about address spacing becoming | hard to find, the idea of re-using 10 as a Class A, or splitting it into | 256 class B's needs to be considered. That's a lot of new customers | for Internet. Consider that net is over 65535 class C spaces! Do we | want to give Interop 16x10^6 addresses! I suspect you will either have a massive flag day or lots of systems that will refuse to talk to the proposed carved up addresses. I thought there were only ~30-40 class A networks, out of ~126 possible class A network numbers. I also seem to remember dimly that class E network numbers which are not used, were mentioned as means of adding massive new network numbers. -- Michael Meissner email: meissner@osf.org phone: 617-621-8861 Open Software Foundation, 11 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, MA Catproof is an oxymoron, Childproof is nearly so
news@intercon.UUCP (06/17/90)
In article <2339@speedy.mcnc.org>, jrr@scamp.concert.net (Joe Ragland) writes: > Yea, maybe in good ham radio DXpedition style, Dan Lynch could issue a > certificate for exchanging mail with a net 10 host at Interop? I'm beginning to like this idea more and more... It could also be fun to give the show backbone routers "historically significant" IMP names, so that you could do traceroutes and so on... -- Amanda Walker, InterCon Systems Corporation -- "Y'know, you can't have, like, a light, without a dark to stick it in... You know what I'm sayin'?" --Arlo Guthrie
mcc@cup.portal.c.om (06/17/90)
With all of the ill-maintained systems in this world, would you want a net 10 number for your system? Let it rest in peace until all other Class A numbers have been assigned. As for carving the net 10 address space into additional Class B and Class C networks, what are the values of the high-order bits of net 10? As an exer- cise, explain how you would accomplish this task. Give examples, if neces- sary, of what changes you would propose. If there are any cost impacts, please identify those costs and provide a plan for recovery of those costs. You have 2 hours to complete this examination. Good luck! Merton
J.Crowcroft@CS.UCL.AC.UK (06/27/90)
>>>How about officially assigning NET 10 to Interop - then it could be brought out >the idea was to allow others to use it also. sort of a transiently connected >network. i am sure dan will correct me if i am incorrect. >possibly we should use net 89 instead of net 10 though . . . . . . > what about recycling net 4 (SATNET) since the bird no longer flies.. maybe RIPE could consider using it for europe...since most net 4 sites were there... jon
barns@GATEWAY.MITRE.ORG (06/27/90)
I'll let someone else talk about net 89. However, here is some history on network numbers. When IP was first conjured up, there was not a notion of class A/B/C addresses. At that time it was not generally thought that there would be a huge number of networks, but rather a smaller number of possibly large networks. The 32 bit IP address was 8 bits Network, 24 bits Host. "They" thought it would be a good idea to preallocate the network numbers to all the significant networks (those that some Internet participant might presumably join). I seem to remember that there were on the order of 20-30 networks identified and preassigned. These included TELENET, TYMNET, DATAPAC, etc. There was a list and it can probably be found in some ancient RFC. A little while later "they" decided that preallocation was not such a good idea and instead they would give out network numbers only to networks that had EGP routing glue to The Internet. Some of the already assigned network numbers were deassigned because there was no connectivity and no specific plan to achieve it. It was also around this time that the threat (or promise, depending on your point of view) of campus nets, building nets, and random Ethernets became clearer, so classes A, B, and C were invented, and the high order bit coding trick was used to provide compatibility with the previously assigned network numbers that were actually in use. So there were a lot of holes in class A and most of the new demand was in class C, for the random Ethernets. Obviously the people who already had working networks didn't want to change their addresses. This is the main reason why some nets that don't seem to be big enough to warrant class A addresses have them anyway. Less obvious but also an issue - some sites had gateways that could not conveniently be gotten to cope with the revised addressing plan. I think that Stanford was one such, but I don't remember the exact problem. Bear in mind that gateways weren't off-the-shelf in those days. (Neither were hosts, sometimes. Especially the networking interface hardware and software.) Subnets are more recent than all of these things, and multicast (class D) addresses are yet more recent. Class B became popular with the advent of subnetting. We probably don't have much call for class A network numbers nowadays, but I can think of at least one possible source of demand. When a logical network uses end-to-end encryption devices, there are some extra demands on the address space, such as wanting to be able to address some sub-processors in the encryption box, and wanting to carry the encryption domain identification in a subfield of the address. To put all of this (plus the host id) into 16 bits with fixed size subfields would cramp the fields more than is nice. Even 24 bits isn't vast, but it's better. DOD has net 21 for this purpose already; I don't know whether others are or will be needed, but it's conceivable that they might. Bill Barns / MITRE-Washington / barns@gateway.mitre.org
jbvb@VAX.FTP.COM (James B. Van Bokkelen) (06/28/90)
If we could hope to expunge all the Class A nets, we might be able to redefine 127 class A nets as 32,000 new Class B nets in a future HRRFC. Given that we've actually used 2,500 out of the 16,000 possible, this might be worth adding to the enormous thrashing among developers as the millenium approaches. It would also legislate away "net 89", and "127.0.0.1". Presumably plenty of the 2 million possible class C nets remain to be allocated... James B. VanBokkelen 26 Princess St., Wakefield, MA 01880 FTP Software Inc. voice: (617) 246-0900 fax: (617) 246-0901
kwe@bu-it.bu.edu (Kent England) (06/28/90)
In article <9006271746.AA07726@vax.ftp.com>, jbvb@VAX.FTP.COM (James B. Van Bokkelen) writes: > If we could hope to expunge all the Class A nets, we might be able to > redefine 127 class A nets as 32,000 new Class B nets in a future > HRRFC. 32,000+ networks is a lot for a poor national backbone router to keep track of. I suggest that that issue be addressed at the same time as you redefine all those Class As. --Kent
karn@envy.bellcore.com (Phil R. Karn) (06/29/90)
In article <9006271746.AA07726@vax.ftp.com>, jbvb@VAX.FTP.COM (James B. Van Bokkelen) writes: |> If we could hope to expunge all the Class A nets [...] Actually, I'd prefer to do away with the artificial Class A/B/C distinction altogether. Per-entry subnet masks in routing protocols like OSPF may well make this practical. I've been using a similar scheme in amateur packet radio TCP/IP for years and it has worked very well in keeping routing tables small without requiring flag day conversions when topologies change. Phil