[comp.protocols.tcp-ip] Wollongong TCP/IP ping question, VMS

lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Lumsdon) (07/10/90)

Under VMS (version 5.2), what privileges does PING require?
Tech Support at Wollongong told me it was cmkrnl, but, when ping image
is installed with that privilege, this message appears when trying to
use ping (from regular user account; works fine from system account):
  $ ping _node_
  ping: socket: Permission denied

I've played with it, and, will ping work when installed with only the
sysprv privilege?

Thanks for any help.
--------------------------  Esther Lumsdon  --------------------------------
lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil  lumsdon@dtrc.dt.navy.mil
lumsdon%dtrc.navy.mil@uunet.uu.net
"Wherever you go, there you are" -Buckaroo Bonzai

adelman@TGV.COM (Kenneth Adelman) (07/10/90)

> Under VMS (version 5.2), what privileges does PING require?
> Tech Support at Wollongong told me it was cmkrnl, but, when ping image
> is installed with that privilege, this message appears when trying to
> use ping (from regular user account; works fine from system account):
>   $ ping _node_
>   ping: socket: Permission denied
>
> I've played with it, and, will ping work when installed with only the
> sysprv privilege?

    Both WINS/TCP and MultiNet use 'SYSPRV' as the equivalent of the
UNIX 'root' user, so SYSPRV is required to create the raw socket
required by PING.  I'd be careful about installing arbitrary programs
with SYSPRV, as you may breach system-security by allowing someone to
use that program to overwrite system files.

    MultiNet's PING is installed with SYSPRV by default, and in order
not to cause a security breach, PING disables it on startup and
enables it only to create the socket.

						    Kenneth Adelman
						    TGV, Inc.

imp@dancer.Solbourne.COM (Warner Losh) (07/10/90)

In article <2509@nems.dt.navy.mil> lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Esther
Lumsdon) writes: 
>Under VMS (version 5.2), what privileges does PING require?

It requires CMKRNL and SYSPRV on all version of VMS and all version of
WIN/TCP for VMS through at least 5.1.

>Tech Support at Wollongong told me it was cmkrnl, but, when ping image
>is installed with that privilege, this message appears when trying to
>use ping (from regular user account; works fine from system account):
>  $ ping _node_
>  ping: socket: Permission denied
>
>I've played with it, and, will ping work when installed with only the
>sysprv privilege?

The problem is that Technical support gave you incomplete information.
WIN/TCP PING requires that you have both CMKRNL and SYSPRV in order
for certain calls that it makes to succeed.  If you don't have both of
these privs enabled, then you will get the error message that you see
above.

The good news is that as of release 5.1 you are supposed to be able to
install ping with privs.  Everything should work OK if you install the
ping image with CMKRNL and SYSPRV.
--
Warner Losh		imp@Solbourne.COM
Boycott Lotus.		#include <std/disclaimer>

lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Lumsdon) (07/10/90)

In article <1990Jul9.210637.4761@Solbourne.COM> imp@dancer.Solbourne.COM (Warner Losh) writes:
>In article <2509@nems.dt.navy.mil> lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Esther
>Lumsdon) writes:
>>Under VMS (version 5.2), what privileges does PING require?
>
>It requires CMKRNL and SYSPRV on all version of VMS and all version of
>WIN/TCP for VMS through at least 5.1.
>
>The problem is that Technical support gave you incomplete information.
>WIN/TCP PING requires that you have both CMKRNL and SYSPRV in order
>for certain calls that it makes to succeed.  If you don't have both of

Actually, in playing with it before I posted, it worked from my account
(not the system account) when I didn't install it, and gave myself only
the SYSPRV privilege above normal privs (tmpmbx, etc.). The problem
is that Wollongong Tech Support gave me just plain incorrect information.

Is it safe to install PING with SYSPRV privilege? Will it compromise
my system security? Does Wollongong's PING do anything other than sending
ping at target? Is Wollongong's PING code written such that it uses
SYSPRV carefully? I'll call Wollongong and ask these questions, and
post answers to the net in a week or so.

--------------------------  Esther Lumsdon  --------------------------------
lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil  lumsdon@dtrc.dt.navy.mil
lumsdon%dtrc.navy.mil@uunet.uu.net
"Wherever you go, there you are" -Buckaroo Bonzai

lars@spectrum.CMC.COM (Lars Poulsen) (07/11/90)

In article <2521@nems.dt.navy.mil> lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil
   (Esther Lumsdon) writes:
> [PING requires SYSPRV]
>Is it safe to install PING with SYSPRV privilege?
>Will it compromise my system security?
A matter of definition :-) :-) If you install PING with privilege,
anybody can use PING. This is useful, but do you want them to ?
(I.e. you may not want to pay for that essentially useless traffic).
(But pings from OTHER sites are probably more disruptive than outgoing
pings).

>Does Wollongong's PING do anything other than sending ping at target?
You mean, are there trojan horses in commercial code ? Of course you
should be suspicious of anything for which you don't receive source
code. If you are REALLY worried, you could write your own PING instead
of using TWG's.

>Is Wollongong's PING code written such that it uses SYSPRV carefully?
Why would you be more suspicious of PING than of say the FTP daemon ?

The reason PING requires privilege, is that it connects to a "raw"
socket; i.e. it interfaces at a level of the network package where you
can send *anything you like*. To prevent user programs from forging
authentic looking datagrams that pretend to be from somewhere else, the
network kernel has been made to insist that only privileged programs do
these things.

>I'll call Wollongong and ask these questions, and
>post answers to the net in a week or so.
>
>--------------------------  Esther Lumsdon  --------------------------------
>lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil  lumsdon@dtrc.dt.navy.mil
>lumsdon%dtrc.navy.mil@uunet.uu.net
>"Wherever you go, there you are" -Buckaroo Bonzai


-- 
/ Lars Poulsen, SMTS Software Engineer
  CMC Rockwell  lars@CMC.COM

lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Lumsdon) (07/17/90)

In article <1990Jul10.172440.15458@spectrum.CMC.COM> lars@spectrum.CMC.COM (Lars Poulsen) writes:
>In article <2521@nems.dt.navy.mil> lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil
>   (Esther Lumsdon) writes:
>> [PING requires SYSPRV]
>>Is it safe to install PING with SYSPRV privilege?

[....]

>The reason PING requires privilege, is that it connects to a "raw"
>socket; i.e. it interfaces at a level of the network package where you
>can send *anything you like*. To prevent user programs from forging
>authentic looking datagrams that pretend to be from somewhere else, the
>network kernel has been made to insist that only privileged programs do
>these things.

Thank you for pointing this out.

Thanks for all responses. It has become a moot point. NCSA's tcp/ip
for MS-DOS requires (inexplicably) that the VAX PING the PC in order
to get communications to work after both machines have rebooted. We
are now using FTP Software's tcp/ip for MS-DOS, which has not exhibited
this strange behavior.

--------------------------  Esther Lumsdon  --------------------------------
lumsdon@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil  lumsdon@dtrc.dt.navy.mil
lumsdon%dtrc.navy.mil@uunet.uu.net
"Wherever you go, there you are" -Buckaroo Bonzai