djw@lanl-a.UUCP (10/25/84)
================================================================
I'm going to try again since I got no comment on this before, I'll
cancel and repost... I've moved the "quotes" to the end of this
note so you can "n" them and still have read what I want to say.
Assuming that 70% of you found eating the dead cat to be reprehensible
how do you feel about the punishment? If it had been my posting that
"Chuq" or R*** or D***** found reprehensible and they had complained
to my managment I could have been put on notice. Is that true of
yourselves also?
What happens to your life if someone from "somewhere else" calls your
boss and complains that the things you've been saying on Arpanet/
Telnet/Bitnet/Usenet are obscene?
SIR... I was raised in a different world than you were, I have four
kids ( twin 17 year old sons included ) and I'll bet that Your
VERSION of OBSCENE is not mine!!!!
I didn't find the dead cat nearly as obscene as the discussion of
whether we "should" have dropped the bomb on Nagasaki. I haven't
even heard any discussion of the puted use of "tactical Nuclear
Weapons" in Campucia. I'd find such a discussion very repulsive,
but I wouldn't call someone's boss and complain.
I find the lyrics to some of the songs my kids listen to very
disturbing, but I still let them listen to them...
Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen
"I put my gun against his head, pulled the trigger, now he's dead...
Momma, didn't mean to make you cry, sometimes wish I'd never been
born at all."
I don't feel that it's safe to post to your little bulletinboard
kids, you play dirty... If you don't like what's said you retaliate
too harshly. Perhaps Mod.* is the way to go with lots of "cute"
articles (kinda like what you get when you type 'fortune' without
the -o option)... If things don't go right, you can invent some
proper articles with just the right amount of controversy in them.
Note that the person who felt that he had to complain to someone
else's boss about the obscene postings is now the "moderator"
of one of the most volatile and previously interesting newsgroups.
If I send him an article that he doesn't like, will he retaliate?
=============================================================
That's my opinion, this is sarcasm.
And Gene don't you really think that people would object to your
cute little jokes, has anyone called your boss yet? I'll bet
his phone number is in one of the site reports in net.news somewhere.
Lets start a round robin and see how many people we can get fired.
BUT lets start with those who are offensive and obscene first, then
when we get down to them we'll do the others, ( I'm probably pretty
safe, I'm Manx ).
Just think where we'd be if we could get rid of reactionarys like
Gene.
End of Sarcasm
================================================================
Please don't call my boss if you have problems with me, call me...
David Wade
(505)667-5745 @ work
(505)662-9011 @ home
That's what I had to say, the text following is the articles that
I'm referring to...
================================================================
>From: spaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford)
>Newsgroups: net.singles
>Subject: Re: friends and intimacy
>Date: Mon, 15-Oct-84 16:08:16 MDT
>Organization: The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech
>
>> At best, it ain't easy. At worst, it's downright hard.....
>>
>> chuq
>
>Actually, it's often the best when it's hard.
>(sorry, I couldn't resist.)
>--
>Off the Wall of Gene Spafford
>==============================================================
>From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui)
>Newsgroups: net.singles,net.flame
>Subject: Re: Not Way-Out But Lovable Babbling Meaningless Drivel
>
>Organization: The Warlocks Cave, Castrovalva
>
>> This is really getting absurd. Meaningless Drivel is right! I am
>> >> {not john williams}
>
>I brought John Williams to the attention of the powers that be at Dec, and
>they have assured me that he will act in a gentlemanly and proper manner or
>they will shove his bicycle pump down his throat (or something to that
>affect). They were not aware of his postings and did not appreciate the
>negative implications he was giving their fine and upstanding company.
>
>chuq
> Chuq Von Rospach
>
>=============================================================
>From: rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn)
>Newsgroups: net.singles,net.flame
>Subject: Re: Not Way-Out But Lovable Babbling Meaningless Drivel
>
>Wait! What's going on here? I can buy the idea of bringing this guy's
>actions to the attention of someone who has a brain and cares...BUT I draw
>the line at implying that people posting to the net reflect, to any
>significant extent, on their respective organizations.
>
>It's FINE to bring peer pressure to bear on someone who's posting trash--
>and John Williams' article certainly was that. Moreover, the site admin
>at the site of a problem poster is an excellent person to bring some
>meaningful pressure. But the basis for the pressure should be in terms of
>the social structure and the operation of the net. The minute we start
>saying and/or believing that people speak for their respective
>organizations, everybody's gonna have to have one of those idiot
>disclaimers at the bottom of the article. We'll be inviting company
>bureaucracy (in the "proper" companies) to scrutinize everything that gets
>posted--and if that happens, it won't take too long to shut down the "non-
>technical" groups, among which net.singles would surely be one of the
>first. I don't want any of that, nor do I want a bunch of folks thinking
>that when I say "(sex, drugs, rock&roll:-)" in a posting that I'm saying
>ANYthing about NBI policy or attitudes!
>--
>Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086
> ...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.spaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford) (10/29/84)
> Assuming that 70% of you found eating the dead cat to be reprehensible > how do you feel about the punishment? If it had been my posting that > "Chuq" or R*** or D***** found reprehensible and they had complained > to my management I could have been put on notice. Is that true of > yourselves also? Nope, we can eat dead cats if we wish. I happen to think that doing so would be its own punishment. > What happens to your life if someone from "somewhere else" calls your > boss and complains that the things you've been saying on Arpanet/ > Telnet/Bitnet/Usenet are obscene? Well, I would hope that any intelligent, effective manager would try to get copies of the postings involved and then make his/her own judgement about the matter. It shouldn't be any different from someone coming in to the manager's office and complaining about the employee putting some kind of disgusting posters up in the halls -- the manager should investigate the charges, first. If there were substance to the accusations, I would expect corrective action to be taken. If it were all rumor and hearsay, I would hope that my boss would dismiss such charges. > SIR... I was raised in a different world than you were, I have four > kids ( twin 17 year old sons included ) and I'll bet that Your > VERSION of OBSCENE is not mine!!!! A different world? I claim Vega -- what's yours? I'm sure my obscene is different from yours -- and probably would be even if I had four kids. > I didn't find the dead cat nearly as obscene as the discussion of > whether we "should" have dropped the bomb on Nagasaki. I haven't > even heard any discussion of the puted use of "tactical Nuclear > Weapons" in Campucia. I'd find such a discussion very repulsive, > but I wouldn't call someone's boss and complain. I also don't consider "repulsive" synonymous with "obscene." There is a difference. There is also a difference between discussion and just making noise to disturb others. I would be rather upset if you had started talking about nuclear arms in net.singles, unless it was related to how hard it might be to get a date if one was radioactive. (Hmmm, she gives me that certain glow....) If you had started such postings, I would have sent you mail, I'm sure. Postings about dead cats don't belong in net.singles, unless: a) you are a cat yourself, or b) you find yourself attracted to demised felines. > I find the lyrics to some of the songs my kids listen to very > disturbing, but I still let them listen to them... How enlightened of you.... > Note that the person who felt that he had to complain to someone > else's boss about the obscene postings is now the "moderator" > of one of the most volatile and previously interesting newsgroups. > If I send him an article that he doesn't like, will he retaliate? I doubt that Chuq would "retaliate." He might send you an article in return.... And "previously interesting"? I think you're missing some of the point, and a great deal of the story. The original postings by John Williams were not disturbing because of the language, per se, but because he was purposely trying to offend the readers of the group. If the newsgroup had been net.flame (or net.pets, perhaps), it might have been appropriate. As it was, the postings were inappropriate and rude. It is disturbing to see trash thrown into a "volatile and interesting newsgroup." Chuq (and others) sent mail to Mr Williams, requesting either an explanation or a change. I've seen copies of the notes that a few people sent. They were not unusual or particularly hostile. I've also seen Mr. Williams' responses. Those were quite vile. Perhaps Chuq should have waited a while before talking to some people at DEC about Mr. Williams. As it was, he contacted some friends who were NOT Mr. Williams' superiors, but who are long-time net administrators and users. They took the actions which followed (whatever they may be). Based on the letters I've seen, I don't think it was a case of over-reacting. Williams had his chance to at least respond politely to the letters. Knowing something of the people involved, I'm sure they didn't just take Chuq at his word (although there is no reason why they shouldn't -- Chuq appears pretty honest {I even entrusted him with my MOTAS one evening}), but I bet they sought out the indicated postings and made their own decisions. > That's my opinion, this is sarcasm. > > And Gene don't you really think that people would object to your > cute little jokes, has anyone called your boss yet? I'll bet > his phone number is in one of the site reports in net.news somewhere. > Lets start a round robin and see how many people we can get fired. No one has registered a complaint about any of my jokes. Yet. I'm a PhD student here at Tech, and I don't have a boss, as such. If you look in the site listings, you'll find that I am the news administrator for all of the Tech machines. I also help out with some of the other administration chores here. They trust my judgement around here, and I doubt you could convince them of much. But, if you want to complain about something I've posted, let me save you some trouble: The system administrator for Gatech is Mark Johnson (gatech!mark) and his phone number is (404) 894-2746. The lab operations manager is Ed Coleman (gatech!ed) and his phone number is (404) 894-4465. If you really want to make a big deal of things, you can always call Lindsay Cleveland (akgua!glc) at (404) 447-3909. He's the administrator of our newsfeed -- akgua. Maybe you can convince him to filter out everything I post. > Just think where we'd be if we could get rid of reactionarys like > Gene. I've been called a lot of things, but reactionary is a new one on me. Is it because you expected me to react to your posting? Or am I just another "flaming pig-dog reactionary imperialist Usenetter"? Or is it because I know how to spell "reactionaries"? > Please don't call my boss if you have problems with me, call me... Collect? Call you ... "irresponsible"? "Fred"? But seriously folk, the net is something to which anyone can post. It's not a right, its a privilege granted by whomever maintains your machine. If you want to be a jerk, fine. If you want to be a sage, even better. But no matter what you are, you need to take responsibility for your postings. Just as you can post anything you want, anyone else on the net can mail to you or your boss. I can even use the real mail, if I wish. That isn't being oppressive, that's just exercising my right to free speech. If you post a fresh version of vmunix to net.singles, you better believe I'm going to complain. Loudly. Possibly by phone. If you drop your trash (dead cats included) into any group to which it is not appropriate, I will complain. First to you, and then to your boss if I feel you're purposely trying to be a nuisance. As a last resort, I'll start complaining to the site administrators of your neighboring machines. If I'm a crank, I'll be ignored. If I've got a valid point, something will change. That's what has helped to keep the net working up to now. We have a community and a community-defined set of standards. Sociologists call them "mores," and they're what define appropriate and inappropriate, obscene and proper. Maybe I'm a reactionary because I believe in the weight of public opinion and the collective ability to decide the content of our net? If so, I'll continue to be one. -- Off the Wall of Gene Spafford The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui) (10/30/84)
In article <10574@gatech.UUCP> spaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford) writes: >> SIR... I was raised in a different world than you were, I have four >> kids ( twin 17 year old sons included ) and I'll bet that Your >> VERSION of OBSCENE is not mine!!!! > >A different world? I claim Vega -- what's yours? I'm sure my obscene >is different from yours -- and probably would be even if I had four >kids. Hmm... I claim Ursa Major. We ursine extraterresterials wouldn't be caught DEAD on vega.... Earth is bad enough sometimes.... >> If I send him an article that he doesn't like, will he retaliate? > >I doubt that Chuq would "retaliate." He might send you an article >in return.... And "previously interesting"? > How can I retaliate? Interesting concept.... Have to look at that one-- Death rays? Clouds of plaid smoke attacking you on the highway? Hordes of deadly plaid dragons drinking from your birdbath? Perhaps a pipe bomb uuencoded to look like a normal unix file.... >Perhaps Chuq should have waited a while before talking to some people Perhaps, but it was obvious to me that the behavior was not going to change, and I felt that the in some ways the negative feedback Williams was getting was what he wanted. My main concern was to get it stopped before net.singles got ripped apart by it. On a purely selfish level, it would have been to my distinct advantage to have him continue on indefinitely because he was a GREAT advertisement for mod.singles. >{I even entrusted >him with my MOTAS one evening} If I hadn't already worked something like a 12 hour day, he might have wished differently... *grin* >> And Gene don't you really think that people would object to your >> cute little jokes, has anyone called your boss yet? I'll bet >> his phone number is in one of the site reports in net.news somewhere. >> Lets start a round robin and see how many people we can get fired. In case anyone wants to complain about me, the contact is: Chuq Von Rospach, National Semiconductor (408) 733-2600, X242 or X272. he will be more than happy to hear any complaints and will investigate them. If there is any problem found, he will see that corrective action is taken and, if neccessary, report the matter to his boss. -- From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA I'd know those eyes from a million years away....
moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) (10/31/84)
>In case anyone wants to complain about me, the contact is: > > Chuq Von Rospach, National Semiconductor > (408) 733-2600, X242 or X272. > > he will be more than happy to hear any complaints and will > investigate them. Sounds fair. Now, if anyone has complaints about me, they can write a note to me, here. I promise that I will investigate myself thoroughly. No stone will be left unturned, no disgusting or replulsive deed will be left veiled. I'll turn myself upside-down if I have to! "OK, Meyer, we know we're in there. Come out with our hands up!" "I'll never get me, screw. BANG BANG BANG..." Oh-oh, turgid melodrama alert... PS. Just for those of you who take everything seriously (even in THIS newsgroup), this letter is NOT being satiric. It is just being silly (so what else is new?). If you actually do have complaints about me, I suggest you write my mother. She is pretty reasonable, and I owe her money. "Are they being mistreated?" "Only by a few fanatics. Mostly local anchormen." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
inc@fluke.UUCP (Gary Benson) (10/31/84)
BRAVO, SPAFF!
This whole discussion has become just inane. Please sign me up for a
dues-paying, card-carrying member of Net.Reactionaries. I have passed the
test: I spelled it correctly. What's more, I fully support the proposition
that I have an inalienable right to complain about garbage postings to the
pepetrator's boss or system administrator, or major professor, or whatever.
I have, and I do!
--
Gary Benson ms232e -*- John Fluke Mfg Co -*- Box C9090 -*- Everett WA 98206 USA
{microsoft,allegra,ssc-vax,sun,sb1}{decvax,ihnp4,tektronix!uw-beaver}!fluke!inc
+- Paid for by the Tirebiter for Political Solutions Committee, Sector R -+scw@cepu.UUCP (10/31/84)
Right on Gene! Put it to 'em!!!!
--
Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology)
uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcrdcf}!cepu!scw
ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-cs location: N 34 3' 9.1" W 118 27' 4.3"