[rec.autos] Radar Detectors

lenny@icus.islp.ny.us (Lenny Tropiano) (02/14/89)

I recently purchased a new auto, and I wanted to get a new radar detector.
I had a original Fuzzbuster for quite some time.  It did well with X-band
but I don't know how it managed with the K-band radar.  It also wasn't
the best in sensitivity, had no city/hwy button, and tended to give warnings
that weren't good enough for proper speed adjustment (yes, I do have a
heavy foot) :-(  

Well .. I've been checking around for a radar detector, and one saleswoman
mentioned to me something they are supposibly testing in NY State and Texas.
It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
license plate.  There is no need to pull you over, they just send you a 
picture and ticket in the mail.  Is this just another marketing ploy? Or is
it a reality?   I've been reading about the Laser stuff, and also heard
a while ago about those robot-units.  What gives?

What do people suggest as far as a good, sensitive, not too many false
alarms, ability to distinguish "pulse-type" radar, X, K, Ka-bands, reasonably
priced ($125-$200) ... etc..   Thanks in advance.

-Lenny
-- 
Lenny Tropiano             ICUS Software Systems         [w] +1 (516) 582-5525
lenny@icus.islp.ny.us      Telex; 154232428 ICUS         [h] +1 (516) 968-8576
{talcott,decuac,boulder,hombre,pacbell,sbcs}!icus!lenny  attmail!icus!lenny
        ICUS Software Systems -- PO Box 1; Islip Terrace, NY  11752

depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jeff DePolo) (02/14/89)

In article <603@icus.islp.ny.us> lenny@icus.UUCP writes:
>Well .. I've been checking around for a radar detector, and one saleswoman
>mentioned to me something they are supposibly testing in NY State and Texas.
>It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
>license plate.  There is no need to pull you over, they just send you a 
>picture and ticket in the mail.  Is this just another marketing ploy? Or is
>it a reality?   I've been reading about the Laser stuff, and also heard
>a while ago about those robot-units.  What gives?

>-- 
>Lenny Tropiano             ICUS Software Systems         [w] +1 (516) 582-5525
>lenny@icus.islp.ny.us      Telex; 154232428 ICUS         [h] +1 (516) 968-8576
>{talcott,decuac,boulder,hombre,pacbell,sbcs}!icus!lenny  attmail!icus!lenny
>        ICUS Software Systems -- PO Box 1; Islip Terrace, NY  11752

Ka band has been authorized by the FCC for speed measurement use.  However,
the photo radar units that you are talking about haven't actually been
imployed anywhere in the US yet.  They are being tested in two states
(California, and I believe New Mexico), but they aren't been used in
actual speed traps.  The Ka detectors (currently only made by Bel) are
somewhat worthless for a number of reasons.  First of all, the design
of the photo radar unit makes it very difficult to detect.  The beam
that the radar uses is very narrow, and is angled in such a way that it
does not transmit down a lane of traffic, rather, at an angle across it.
Second of all, the FCC also approved a second photo radar band that has
yet to be exploited, so a few months from now, another photo radar unit
may use this band, making the Ka detectors obsolete.  By the way, the
photo radar units are made by a Swiss?? company called something like
Multinova.  The units themselves are VERY expensive.  The company not only
sells the units outright, but they have a system where they will lease
the unit to a department and receive a "royalty" on the revenue that the
units earn the department.  Kinda sleezy in my opinion.

If I were you, I'd forget about Ka band.  If it ever does becomes
widely used in the US, you can upgrade then, but it probably won't
be for a year or two, if it ever does happen.  Instead, I'd buy either
an Escort or a Passport.  I've owned (in order) a Whistler Spectrum,
a Bel Express-LR (844S), and now use an Escort and the Escort is far
and away the best of the three.

One last note - the problem with the Ka units is once the public figures out
where it is located on the highway, it isn't going to take long for somebody
to come back and seek revenge on the incriminating unit with a baseball
bat or a sledgehammer  :-).  No department wants to spend the money for
such a unit if it is going to be destroyed soon after it is installed.

Replies to the address in the signature, please!

							--- Jeff


+----------------------------------------------+------------------------------+
|  Jeff DePolo  [depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu]  | o  The best things in life   |
|   =>  The University of Pennsylvania  <=     |    come in six-packs.        |
| Class of 1991 - Computer Science Engineering | o  Life begins at 85 MPH.    |
+----------------------------------------------+ o  It's not illegal if they  |
| DISCLAIMER:  Someone else used my account.   |    don't catch you.          |
+----------------------------------------------+------------------------------+

john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) (02/14/89)

In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu> depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Jeff DePolo) writes:
]In article <603@icus.islp.ny.us> lenny@icus.UUCP writes:
]>Well .. I've been checking around for a radar detector, and one saleswoman
]>mentioned to me something they are supposibly testing in NY State and Texas.
]>It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
]>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
]>license plate.  There is no need to pull you over, they just send you a 
]>picture and ticket in the mail.  Is this just another marketing ploy? Or is
]>it a reality?   I've been reading about the Laser stuff, and also heard
]>a while ago about those robot-units.  What gives?
]
]>-- 
]>Lenny Tropiano             ICUS Software Systems         [w] +1 (516) 582-5525
]>lenny@icus.islp.ny.us      Telex; 154232428 ICUS         [h] +1 (516) 968-8576
]>{talcott,decuac,boulder,hombre,pacbell,sbcs}!icus!lenny  attmail!icus!lenny
]>        ICUS Software Systems -- PO Box 1; Islip Terrace, NY  11752
]
]Ka band has been authorized by the FCC for speed measurement use.  However,
]the photo radar units that you are talking about haven't actually been
]imployed anywhere in the US yet.  They are being tested in two states

WRONG! Paradise Valley, AZ (where I live) has used one for over a year
and have issued thousands of tickets. They plan to increase the usage
now that it has been successful. PS - the accident rate in PV has
dropped sharply, as have the average speeds. Unfortunately, PV
has speed limits lower than surrounding communities (Phoenix, Scottsdale)
on the same roads.

](California, and I believe New Mexico), but they aren't been used in
]actual speed traps.  The Ka detectors (currently only made by Bel) are
]somewhat worthless for a number of reasons.  First of all, the design
]of the photo radar unit makes it very difficult to detect.  The beam
]that the radar uses is very narrow, and is angled in such a way that it
]does not transmit down a lane of traffic, rather, at an angle across it.

True. Also it transmits very low power (.5 milliwatts)

]Multinova.  The units themselves are VERY expensive.  The company not only
]sells the units outright, but they have a system where they will lease
]the unit to a department and receive a "royalty" on the revenue that the
]units earn the department.  Kinda sleezy in my opinion.
This how PV does it - the company gets $20.00 for each fine paid.
]
]One last note - the problem with the Ka units is once the public figures out
]where it is located on the highway, it isn't going to take long for somebody
]to come back and seek revenge on the incriminating unit with a baseball
]bat or a sledgehammer  :-).  No department wants to spend the money for
]such a unit if it is going to be destroyed soon after it is installed.

Wrong again! In paradise valley, the unit is installed in a chevy
S-10 blazer which is manned (to prevent revenge) by a police officer
and is moved around every few hours. The officer is still much more
cost effective than just doing traffic duty with traditional techniques -
it averages 50 tickets PER HOUR! By the way, the best defense in daytime
is to keep your eyes open - you can see the unit before you cross the
beam. However, they now use infrared film and run at night. I know of
no defense other than sticking to the speed limit.

This subject has been discussed extensively in rec.autos.
-- 
John Moore (NJ7E)           mcdphx!anasaz!john asuvax!anasaz!john
(602) 861-7607 (day or eve) 
The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be
someone else's. :-)

palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) (02/15/89)

In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu> depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Jeff DePolo) writes:
>Ka band has been authorized by the FCC for speed measurement use.  However,
>the photo radar units that you are talking about haven't actually been
>imployed anywhere in the US yet.  They are being tested in two states
>(California, and I believe New Mexico), but they aren't been used in
>actual speed traps.

I don't know whether they are Ka band, but here in Pasadena Ca. photo
radar is used to apprehend and punish that lawless breed of sociopath
who seeks to destroy this great nation by willfully and with malice
driving 35 in a 30 zone.

Someone I know was caught twice on successive days by one of these.

		David Palmer
		palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
		...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer
	"I was sad that I had no shirt, until I met a man with no torso"

aejc@occrsh.ATT.COM (Anthony_Campbell) (02/15/89)

>>It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
>>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
>>license plate.  There is no need to pull you over, they just send you a 
>>picture and ticket in the mail. 
>>-- 
>>Lenny Tropiano 
>
>Ka band has been authorized by the FCC for speed measurement use.  However,
>the photo radar units that you are talking about haven't actually been
>employed anywhere in the US yet.
>							-- Jeff DePolo, UPenn

An camera type radar system is in use in parts of Europe, and has been used
in Houston.  Last summer, the system was placed in an "abandoned" Chevy 
Blazer on I-45 to spy on Galveston-bound traffic, and a similar system using
a '72 Cadillac was placed along US 290 in NW Houston.
The news was disheartening for Houstonians like myself and A. J. Foyt :-)
The Texas fallout has forced Houston to attempt to enforce a speed limit
on the freeways.
Tickets were only mailed when the car and driver could be positively   
identified in the photograph.  I am now prone to lane changes when passing
an abandoned vehicle.
							- AEJCampbell
							...att!occrsh!aejc

leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) (02/15/89)

In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu> depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Jeff DePolo) writes:
:In article <603@icus.islp.ny.us> lenny@icus.UUCP writes:
:>Well .. I've been checking around for a radar detector, and one saleswoman
:>mentioned to me something they are supposibly testing in NY State and Texas.
:>It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
:>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
:>lenny@icus.islp.ny.us      Telex; 154232428 ICUS         [h] +1 (516) 968-8576
:
:Ka band has been authorized by the FCC for speed measurement use.  However,
:the photo radar units that you are talking about haven't actually been
:imployed anywhere in the US yet.  They are being tested in two states
:(California, and I believe New Mexico), but they aren't been used in
:actual speed traps.  The Ka detectors (currently only made by Bel) are
:							--- Jeff
They have been in use in Pasadena for more than 6 months, and aside
from some procedural problems which got most of the very first tickets
thrown out, the courts have accepted them.  Pasadena has just
installed photo units at an interesction that monitors red light
runners and of course takes their picture.

Lee

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA|
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/393-0516  FTS 977-0516      |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|UUCP: {ames!cit-vax,psivax}!elroy!jpl-devvax!leem                        |
|ARPA: jpl-devvax!leem!@cit-vax.ARPA -or- leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV    |
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

fransvo@htsa.uucp (Frans van Otten) (02/15/89)

In article <603@icus.islp.ny.us> lenny@icus.UUCP writes:
>
>I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
>license plate.  There is no need to pull you over, they just send you a 
>picture and ticket in the mail.  Is this just another marketing ploy? Or is
>it a reality?   I've been reading about the Laser stuff, and also heard
>a while ago about those robot-units.  What gives?

I don't know about the usa, but down here in The Netherlands the police
do use that kind of 'robot-units'.  They work very well (far too well).
It's also almost useless to buy a radar detector here, because the ray
is too small to be detected early.  When your detector starts blipping
you're already photographed.

-- 
	Frans van Otten
	Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam
	Technische en Maritieme Faculteit
	fransvo@htsa.uucp

sampson@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Steve Sampson) (02/15/89)

The best defense for Ka band photo radars is to simply ignore the summons.
They send you a picture in the mail with a request that you appear and pay
a fine.  Since there is some legal problems in that, they don't go after the
people who ignore the summons.

bb@mtuxo.att.com (52332-B.BARMAK) (02/15/89)

In article <7169@killer.DALLAS.TX.US>, sampson@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Steve Sampson) writes:
> 
> The best defense for Ka band photo radars is to simply ignore the summons.
> They send you a picture in the mail with a request that you appear and pay
> a fine.  Since there is some legal problems in that, they don't go after the
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> people who ignore the summons.

Please explain what these legal problems are. I am interested to 
find out. Anyone else who knows some facts please post or e-mail
to mtuxo!bb. Thanks.
						512BB
		

jlh@loral.UUCP (Physically Phffft) (02/16/89)

In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu> depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Jeff DePolo) writes:
>Ka band has been authorized by the FCC for speed measurement use.  However,
>the photo radar units that you are talking about haven't actually been
>imployed anywhere in the US yet.  They are being tested in two states
>(California, and I believe New Mexico), but they aren't been used in
>actual speed traps.

I'm sure the residents of Pheonix would beg to differ.  Last year there
was a big article in one of the local papers about this wunnerful, nifty
neat technological gadget that was a radar connected to a camera.  Local
politicians were raving about how it would greatly increase city revenues
without any corresponding need to buy more cops.  (I should probably rephrase
that...).  Oh yeah, it would also make the streets safer.
Even better, it was mounted in, I believe, a station wagon so
it could be moved around at will.

Note this wasn't the city of Pheonix, rather a suburb.  I think it was
Paradise Valley but I'm not sure.  Here in Californicate the city of
Pasadena is rumored to be testing them.  I think the whole issue is now
tied up in the courts, I hope to hell the things are declared
unconstitutional, being a rocket pilot myself.


							Jim
				"I used to be a stud, now I'm a spud"

-- 
Jim Harkins		jlh@loral.cts.com
Loral Instrumentation, San Diego

gws@cbnews.ATT.COM (Gary W. Sanders) (02/16/89)

In article <4160@mtuxo.att.com> bb@mtuxo.att.com (52332-B.BARMAK) writes:


With the new KA band  photo radars, you apparently need a good
photo of the car and/or driver to make any kind of charges stick.

It seems to me that some polarized license plate covers or somthing that 
forced the "viewer" to be directly in front(or rear) to see the tag
number might work. most states have laws that force you to have your 
tags in view, but is any kind of viewing angle include? Looks like a
neat test case is in order. And what about the driver. I light tint
on the upper part of a windshield might sove this problem. Also
what about states that have no front tags, only rear, how do you get a
good picture of the driver and rear tag at the same time?


-- 
Gary Sanders (N8EMR) gws@cbnews (w) gws@n8emr (h)
614-860-5965 (353-5965 cornet)

sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (02/16/89)

In article <4427@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>, leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) writes:
> In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu> depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Jeff DePolo) writes:
> :In article <603@icus.islp.ny.us> lenny@icus.UUCP writes:
> :>It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
> :>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the

> They have been in use in Pasadena for more than 6 months, and aside
> from some procedural problems which got most of the very first tickets
> thrown out, the courts have accepted them.  Pasadena has just
> installed photo units at an interesction that monitors red light
> runners and of course takes their picture.

seems like it would be easy to avoid paying a remote ticket such as this.
the driver is responsable for the speeding violation, not the owner of the
car, right?

how can they prove it was you who was driving? innocent unless PROVEN guilty.
I assume they just photograph the back of the car, just to get the license,
then mail the owner of the car the speeding ticket. Also, doesn't the 
officer who gave you the ticket, have to apear in court to validate the 
'crime'? since there was no officer.....

also I was under the impression that you had to sign the ticket when the 
cop pulled you over? 

I am sure a good lawyer could think of a dozen ways to get the case thrown
out.

I just think that getting an automated radar machine to give out tickets is
wrong. Although driving is a privelage, not a right, aren't we still allowed
our rights as a citizen? next thing you know they will have the cars themselves
record how fast they are going and either:

a> limit the speed to the current speed limits (thru bar codes on the road to
read in the speed limit, I saw this on tv. they have it in Australia as an
experiment)

b> the car will call the cops and turn you in. then you will get a ticket
in the mail.
 

-- 
John Sparks      // Amiga  |  {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks 
               \X/  UUCP   |  >> call D.I.S.K. @ 502/968-5401 thru 5406 << 
 
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) (02/16/89)

In article <4160@mtuxo.att.com> bb@mtuxo.att.com (52332-B.BARMAK) writes:
>In article <7169@killer.DALLAS.TX.US>, sampson@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Steve Sampson) writes:
>> 
>> The best defense for Ka band photo radars is to simply ignore the summons.
>> They send you a picture in the mail with a request that you appear and pay
>> a fine.  Since there is some legal problems in that, they don't go after the
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> people who ignore the summons.
>
>Please explain what these legal problems are. I am interested to 
>find out. Anyone else who knows some facts please post or e-mail
>to mtuxo!bb. Thanks.

Well a few come to mind after approx 500 miliseconds of though...

The presumption of inocence (Damn that constitution, get's 'em every time)
The right to confront your accusors.
The requirement that they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the
radar and camera are in sync.
Prove that the film was not altered.

Perhaps between this and the laser radar, we'll be motivated to do what 
we should have done 15 years ago - revolt and overthrow the damn stupid
speed limit laws.  (actually, a grenade in the bed of the truck would
solve the photo-radar problem :-)

John
.

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC                     | Manual? ... What manual ?!? 
Sales Technologies, Inc.    Atlanta, GA    | This is Unix, My son, You 
...!gatech!stiatl!john                     | just GOTTA Know!!! 

wiz@xroads.UUCP (Mike Carter) (02/16/89)

 
Photo Radar ** NOT ** being used ????
 
Ahem, err, excuse me, try taking a wild ride through Paradise Valley here
in Arizona some time. Especially along Tatum Blvd. There's this neet
Jimmy Blazer that pops flashes at motorists. They've had this gem
in operation for over a year now.
 
		-Just adding my pre-tax 2 cents worth.
 
-- 
=============================================================================
= Mike Carter  N7GYX, Phoenix AZ| Q: Why did the Chicken cross the road  ?  =
= hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!xroads!wiz| A: To ESCape the Main Menu .              =
=============================================================================

bnick@aucis.UUCP (Bill Nickless) (02/16/89)

In article <4042@cbnews.ATT.COM>, gws@cbnews.ATT.COM (Gary W. Sanders) writes:
> 
> With the new KA band  photo radars, you apparently need a good
> photo of the car and/or driver to make any kind of charges stick.
> 

[ saving bandwith ]

> neat test case is in order. And what about the driver. I light tint
> on the upper part of a windshield might sove this problem. 
> 

My two brothers are twins.  They jointly own a 1979 Honda accord hatchback.
Most people can't tell them apart easily--much less with a blurred photo.  Now,
let's say John was driving and got his picture taken.  1.  Who gets the ticket
and points on the license--Jim or John?  2.  Where is the burden of proof of 
identity; on the Plaintiff (State Police) or Defendant (John [or Jim?])?  They
both have valid drivers' licenses and they are both named on the car title.

Any ideas, net.lawyers?

-- 
Bill Nickless                    Andrews University Computer Science Department
...!sharkey!aucis!bnick or bnick@aucis.UUCP                  Unix Support Group

              "Help!  I'm locked up in this .signature factory!"

kenneth@turbo.RAY.COM (Kenny Crudup, still in Mass....) (02/16/89)

(Hello again everbody!)

In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu>, depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jeff DePolo) writes:
> The Ka detectors (currently only made by Bel) are
> somewhat worthless for a number of reasons.  First of all, the design
> of the photo radar unit makes it very difficult to detect.  The beam
> that the radar uses is very narrow, and is angled in such a way that it
> does not transmit down a lane of traffic, rather, at an angle across it.

At an angle? What about cosine error? (Or do I have the angle backwards?)

Also, the local "Evening Magazine-type Show" here in Boston had an article
about the new radar, and even tested a detector (Bel?). They seemed to get
enough warning to at least slow down......one of the few good things about
this state (MA) is that most cars don't have front plates, and even if they
did, the RMV won't tell the other state who you are anyway. (Not part of
the DLC).

BTW, Jeff seems to hit all the points that make this country great!

>  o  The best things in life   |
>     come in six-packs.        |
>  o  Life begins at 85 MPH.    |
>  o  It's not illegal if they  |
>     don't catch you.          |

-- 
Kenneth R. Crudup, Contractor, Raytheon CWS Development Group
1001 Boston Post Road, Marlboro, MA 01752
+1 508 490 2015		kenneth@pebbles.ray.com, ...!rayssd!pebbles!kenneth
	Ya know, this place ain't so bad after all......

hgp@lzaz.ATT.COM (H.PAGE) (02/16/89)

In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu>, depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jeff DePolo) writes:
	.
	.
> photo radar units are made by a Swiss?? company called something like
> Multinova.  The units themselves are VERY expensive.

Apparently, the Multinova units have been in use in Switzerland since 
the Seventies.  I have in front of me a copy of a paper from the 
``First International Electronic Crime Countermeasures Conference'' in 
Edinburgh, Scotland, July 18-20, 1973, entitled, ``Safer Roads By 
Optimizing Speed Limits and Controls'' about the (an earlier version?) 
Multinova unit.  

I'll send a copy to anyone who sends me an 8.5 x 11 self addressed,
stamped envelope (big enough for 25 pages) to:

	Howard G. Page
	AT&T Bell Labs, Room 1B-115K
	307 Middletown-Lincroft Rd.
	Lincroft, NJ 07738


-- 

Howard G. Page   AT&T  LZ 1B-115K (201)576-2731 ..!ihnp4!lzaz!hgp

lloyd@axecore.UUCP (Lloyd Buchanan) (02/17/89)

In article <7169@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> sampson@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Steve Sampson) writes:
>
>The best defense for Ka band photo radars is to simply ignore the summons.
>They send you a picture in the mail with a request that you appear and pay
>a fine.  Since there is some legal problems in that, they don't go after the
>people who ignore the summons.


I imagine the best defense is to remove your front license plate!!  (They
aren't required in NY, I don't know about TX)

ciciora@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ciciora; Steven joseph) (02/17/89)

In article <343@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes:
>seems like it would be easy to avoid paying a remote ticket such as this.
>the driver is responsable for the speeding violation, not the owner of the
>car, right?
>
>how can they prove it was you who was driving? innocent unless PROVEN guilty.
>
Simple.  Cops can do ANYTHING they want, who's gonna stop them?

I was driving my mom's car and incorrectly got a parking ticket (long
story...) in boulder, co.  I was going to ignore it, but they looked
up her address, and sent her about 6 letters, first from 'please pay
this ticket' to 'its now tripple to what it would of cost' to 'your
car is now on our tow list' to 'if you don't pay soon, we will put
a warrent out for your arrest'.  After this I gave up and returned
the one that says 'please pay $20', called them up and found out that
that shut them up.  I guess they assumed that since she owned the car,
she is responsible for any one who drives this.  Hey, this is starting
to sound like a topic for rec.autos....

ron_b@apollo.COM (Ronald Buttiglieri) (02/17/89)

In article <4427@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) writes:
>In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu> depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Jeff DePolo) writes:
>:In article <603@icus.islp.ny.us> lenny@icus.UUCP writes:
>:>Well .. I've been checking around for a radar detector, and one saleswoman
>:>mentioned to me something they are supposibly testing in NY State and Texas.
>:>It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
>:>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
>:							--- Jeff
>They have been in use in Pasadena for more than 6 months, and aside
>from some procedural problems which got most of the very first tickets
>thrown out, the courts have accepted them.  Pasadena has just

The major issue throwing these tickets out of court is that unless
the photos are clear enough to prove the driver of the vehicle (at that
time) was in fact the owner of said vehicle, effectively, the owner
is being held responsible for the driving habits of anyone using his/her
car.                                                     

Ron

koontz@oregon (02/17/89)

In article <101@axecore.UUCP>, lloyd@axecore.UUCP (Lloyd Buchanan) writes:
> In article <7169@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> sampson@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Steve Sampson) writes:
> >
> >The best defense for Ka band photo radars is to simply ignore the summons.
> >They send you a picture in the mail with a request that you appear and pay
> >a fine.  Since there is some legal problems in that, they don't go after the
> >people who ignore the summons.
> 
> I imagine the best defense is to remove your front license plate!!  (They
> aren't required in NY, I don't know about TX)

What about spectrum shifting coatings for your license plates. Make 8 look
like 3 etc.

Wear a ronald reagan mask, or ski mask.
Lets see someone make it illegal to cover your visage.

fransvo@htsa.uucp (Frans van Otten) (02/17/89)

In article <4182da6e.16321@apollo.COM> ron_b@apollo.COM (Ronald Buttiglieri) writes:
>The major issue throwing these tickets out of court is that unless
>the photos are clear enough to prove the driver of the vehicle (at that
>time) was in fact the owner of said vehicle, effectively, the owner
>is being held responsible for the driving habits of anyone using his/her
>car.                                                     

In The Netherlands the police photograph the rear side of the car.  This
has something to do with privacy legislation.  Anyway, the driver is
guilty, not the owner, but the owner *must* tell who was in the car.

Another issue:  This equipment can also be installed in cars and used
while *driving* the police car !

-- 
	Frans van Otten
	Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam
	Technische en Maritieme Faculteit
	fransvo@htsa.uucp

hgp@lzaz.ATT.COM (H.PAGE) (02/17/89)

In article <4427@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>, leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) writes:
	.
	.
> Pasadena has just
> installed photo units at an interesction that monitors red light
> runners and of course takes their picture.
> 

NYC's getting them also, but, according to the local news show, the
$50 tickets will be sent to the owner of the car and have the 
same weight of a parking ticket (due to a new NY state law?).  

Interesting concept.
-- 

Howard G. Page   AT&T  LZ 1B-115K (201)576-2731 ..!ihnp4!lzaz!hgp

john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) (02/17/89)

In article <249@turbo.RAY.COM> kenneth@pebbles.ray.com writes:
]In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu>, depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jeff DePolo) writes:
]> The Ka detectors (currently only made by Bel) are
]> somewhat worthless for a number of reasons.  First of all, the design
]> of the photo radar unit makes it very difficult to detect.  The beam
]> that the radar uses is very narrow, and is angled in such a way that it
]> does not transmit down a lane of traffic, rather, at an angle across it.
]
]At an angle? What about cosine error? (Or do I have the angle backwards?)
]

The angle is known to the onboard computer which simply compensates.

]enough warning to at least slow down......one of the few good things about
]this state (MA) is that most cars don't have front plates, and even if they
]did, the RMV won't tell the other state who you are anyway. (Not part of
]the DLC).

The system here in Paradise Valley has a slave stobe and camera
mounted on a tripod about 50 feet behind the main unit. The slave
takes a picture of the rear plate.

Even nastier, the cameras work with infrared strobes and film
and are run at night, when it is much harder to spot the vehicle
holding the radar.

However, for some bizarre reason, the town decided (no doubt
the politicos on the town council) to put up a yellow warning
sign ("warning - photo radar in use") with the mobile
unit. This sign is normally somewhat concealed, smaller than
a normal warning sign, mounted at ground level, and right
next to the truck. In other words, if you can see the sign,
you have already seen the truck!

-- 
John Moore (NJ7E)           mcdphx!anasaz!john asuvax!anasaz!john
(602) 861-7607 (day or eve) 
The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be
someone else's. :-)

neal@lynx.uucp (Neal Woodall) (02/18/89)

In article <101@axecore.UUCP> lloyd@axecore.UUCP (Lloyd Buchanan) writes:

>I imagine the best defense is to remove your front license plate!!  (They
>aren't required in NY, I don't know about TX)

Supposedly, in Texas the front plates are required, but for the
ten years I lived in Texas, I never got in trouble for not having
one on my car. Even after being stopped by the cops on several
occasions, I never got a ticket for the missing front plate, just a
friendly warning about possible 200 $ fines. I guess that most cops
just don't want to take the time to write someone up for something so
trivial. Now, if they get specific orders from the chief, who has
decided to purchase on of the infamous radar-equipped Blazers.....

Neal

jeffw@midas.STS.TEK.COM (Jeff Winslow) (02/18/89)

In article <6681@boulder.Colorado.EDU> ciciora@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ciciora) writes:
>                                                 Hey, this is starting
>to sound like a topic for rec.autos....

But, as interesting as it may be, it's long since stopped being a topic
for sci.electronics. Edit the newsgroups line, please.

						Jeff Winslow

sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (02/18/89)

I got it! yea... you have this detector that senses when you have been
zapped by one of these photo-nightmares and at that instant, closes a
shutter (with a nasty message on the cover, of course) over your license
plate. Since in order to take a picture of your car and plate, the camera
has to wait till you are past the camera (rear shot), you should have 
enough time to close the shutter. You could even hae the shutter resemble
another license plate!... say.... maybe the plate number of the Chief of
Police? yeeeeaa... that's the [speeding] ticket!




-- 
John Sparks      // Amiga  |  {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks 
               \X/  UUCP   |  >> call D.I.S.K. @ 502/968-5401 thru 5406 << 
 
Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down.

leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) (02/18/89)

In article <4182da6e.16321@apollo.COM> ron_b@apollo.COM (Ronald Buttiglieri) writes:
:In article <4427@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Lee Mellinger) writes:
:>In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu> depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Jeff DePolo) writes:
:>:In article <603@icus.islp.ny.us> lenny@icus.UUCP writes:
:>:>It's the Ka-band.  I've heard they've installed robot type radar units that
:>:>will clock your car using the Ka Band radar, and then photograph the
:>:							--- Jeff
:>They have been in use in Pasadena for more than 6 months, and aside
:>from some procedural problems which got most of the very first tickets
:>thrown out, the courts have accepted them.  Pasadena has just
:
:The major issue throwing these tickets out of court is that unless
:the photos are clear enough to prove the driver of the vehicle (at that
:time) was in fact the owner of said vehicle, effectively, the owner
:is being held responsible for the driving habits of anyone using his/her
:car.                                                     
:
:Ron

No, the reason the first tickets were thrown out is that the vehicle
the photo radar was mounted in was not painted in police colors as a
CA Vehicle Code law requires.

Lee

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA|
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/393-0516  FTS 977-0516      |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|UUCP: {ames!cit-vax,psivax}!elroy!jpl-devvax!leem                        |
|ARPA: jpl-devvax!leem!@cit-vax.ARPA -or- leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV    |
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

gbell@pnet12.cts.com (Greg Bell) (02/18/89)

     Why worry about all the legalities and such?  There are many ways to make
this radar/photo system really work.
 
      Chances are you know when you've been clocked.  So, the machine could
have a ticket dispenser.   You'd pull over, walk back to where the machine is,
take your ticket and be on your way!  No problem.
 
       Or, the machine could fire one of those paint pellets at your car and a
cop could pull you over when you see it.
 
       But since the law is so ridiculous anyway, why not just have a periodic
mailing of tickets to EVERYONE who has a driving license?  Would generate
GREAT revenues.  The letter attached could say something like: "This is a
speeding ticket for the speeding you were doing on <RANDOM DATE HERE>".  How
could any of us argue with this??

  

        Sarcasm is a wonderful tool.

    Greg Bell_________________________________________________________
      Hardware hacker          |
      Electronics hobbyist     | UUCP:  uunet!serene!pnet12!gbell
      EE major at UC San Diego |

gregl@ozvax.GWD.TEK.COM (Greg Lacefield) (02/18/89)

In article <343@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes:

>also I was under the impression that you had to sign the ticket when the 
>cop pulled you over? 

In what state?  Here in Oregon, they hand it to you.  No signature is
necessary (except for the officer's).

Not that I would have ANY experience with this MYSELF...  :^)

==============================================================================
My employer doesn't care about opinions on radar machines.  As a matter
of fact, it's pretty apathetic about ANY of my opinions!!  :^)
==============================================================================
Greg Lacefield  :^)                |
                                   |  "...they that wait upon the Lord shall
Interactive Technologies Division  |   renew their strength; they shall mount
Tektronix, Inc.                    |   up with wings as eagles; they shall
P.O. Box 1000  M.S. 60-850         |   run, and not be weary; and they shall
Wilsonville, Oregon  97070         |   walk, and not faint."
(503) 685-2638  (day)              |
                                   |                     - Isaiah 40:31
gregl@ozvax.WV.TEK.COM             |
...!tektronix!ozvax!gregl          |
==============================================================================

A-N-Onymouse@cup.portal.com (John - DeBert) (02/18/89)

>
>The best defense for Ka band photo radars is to simply ignore the summons.
>They send you a picture in the mail with a request that you appear and pay
>a fine.  Since there is some legal problems in that, they don't go after the
>people who ignore the summons.

In California, if you commit a misdemeanor or infraction, the latter being the
most common type of moving violation, you may not be legally arrested or
cited for it unless it was witnessed by a police officer or a witness has done
a citizen's arrest. In sum, you must be arrested before you may be cited.

SInce photo speed traps do not make an arrest, the summons or citation has
no legal standing or force. If ignoring a summons that was based upon the
photo causes your arrest, it can be considered a false arrest. 

A-N-Onymouse@cup.portal.com

koontz@oregon (02/18/89)

> :The major issue throwing these tickets out of court is that unless
> :the photos are clear enough to prove the driver of the vehicle (at that
> :time) was in fact the owner of said vehicle, effectively, the owner
> :is being held responsible for the driving habits of anyone using his/her
> :car.                                                     
> :
> :Ron
> 
> No, the reason the first tickets were thrown out is that the vehicle
> the photo radar was mounted in was not painted in police colors as a
> CA Vehicle Code law requires.
> 
> Lee

I was under the impression you had the right to be confronted by your
accusser.  I don't see one in this case.

Next thing you know, parking meters will issue tickets for
expired time.  Or, cross walk signals for crossing against the light.

jb@aablue.UUCP (John B Scalia) (02/18/89)

In article <343@corpane.UUCP>, sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: 
> [a whole bunch here deleted]
> our rights as a citizen? next thing you know they will have the cars
> themselves record how fast they are going and either:
> 
> a> limit the speed to the current speed limits (thru bar codes on the road to
> read in the speed limit, I saw this on tv. they have it in Australia as an
> experiment)
> 
> b> the car will call the cops and turn you in. then you will get a ticket
> in the mail.

Such a system already exists and is in use in certain sections of Hong Kong.
Not only can it determine your speed and through bar codes painted on the
road decide if you're speeding, it also reports where you've been and at
what time of the day you where there. Of course, they use this information
to give you your, I believe it's, monthly driving bill!

Naturally the act of disconnecting or modifying said under-car black box
is an imprisonable crime.

A couple of friends there, have received a couple of rediculous bills in 
the past five months, and the word is that the system will be Hong Kong
wide sometime next year.


-- 
A A Blueprint Co., Inc. - Akron, Ohio +1 216 794-8803 voice
UUCP:	   {uunet!}aablue!jb	Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who
FidoNet:   1:157/697		wants to spend their life in an institution.
EchoNet:   US:OH/AKR.0

sparks@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (David Sparks) (02/19/89)

In article <1580@anasaz.UUCP>, john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) writes:
> In article <249@turbo.RAY.COM> kenneth@pebbles.ray.com writes:
> ]In article <7944@netnews.upenn.edu>, depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jeff DePolo) writes:
> ]> The Ka detectors (currently only made by Bel) are
> ]> somewhat worthless for a number of reasons.  First of all, the design
> ]> of the photo radar unit makes it very difficult to detect.  The beam
> ]> that the radar uses is very narrow, and is angled in such a way that it
> ]> does not transmit down a lane of traffic, rather, at an angle across it.
> ]
> 
> ]enough warning to at least slow down......one of the few good things about
> ]this state (MA) is that most cars don't have front plates, and even if they
> ]did, the RMV won't tell the other state who you are anyway. (Not part of
> ]the DLC).
> 

The air force is currently using visors connected to light sensors.  This is
so when a nuclear blast occours, the visor is darkened so the pilot wont
be blinded.  This same technique can be used to defeat the multinova.  By
placing the material(I dont know what it is) over the liscence plate, and
connecting it to a Ka band Radar detector, the plate could be darkened in the
time it takes to darken(1/1000 s I believe).  This might be a little co$tly,
but so is a radar detector.

A company is selling some kind of cover for your front liscence plate that
distorts the plate enough that it cant be decoded by the police.  But the
police have been giving out tickets to people who have been using these,
so I wouldnt invest in one. (Note that these are completly different 
techniques, one distorts all the time, while the other blackens only when
Ka radar is detected)


	sparks@cpsc.UCalgary.CA

jbs@rti.UUCP (Joe Simpson) (02/19/89)

In article <27002@sgi.SGI.COM> koontz@oregon writes:
>
>Wear a ronald reagan mask, or ski mask.
>Lets see someone make it illegal to cover your visage.

Actually, it's illegal in quite a few small towns, or so I was told by a
policeman. I've never gone to the courthouse and looked up the laws, though.
I think some of these laws specify that it's only illegal to wear a mask
after dark.

hermann@.ucalgary.ca (Michael Hermann) (02/19/89)

In article <742@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP>, sparks@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (David Sparks) writes:
> placing the material(I dont know what it is) over the liscence plate, and
> connecting it to a Ka band Radar detector, the plate could be darkened in the
> time it takes to darken(1/1000 s I believe).  This might be a little co$tly,
> but so is a radar detector.


Hmm, don't need _quite_ a blast visor here, but it gave me an idea:

    Assuming with a little work you could pull from your radar detector
a useable trigger signal, you could use it to control a relay driving 
some sort of countermeasure. I think a large liquid crystal would do 
the trick, just large enough to fit over your license plate. Detector
goes off, pulls relay, drives liquid crystal (probably off car 12VDC),
plate made unviewable.
    Somebody must sell LC's in an appropriate dimension/configuration.
Didn't some company sell LC windows for your apartment/home, whose opacity
you could vary under control of a rheostat? Sounds like the right company
to talk to...


|  Mike Hermann  | ..!uunet!ubc-cs!calgary!hermann calgary!hermann@cs.ubc.ca
Organized Religion is like Organized Crime; it preys on peoples' weakness,
    generates huge profits for its operators, and is almost impossible
    to eradicate.   -- me

dhsu@crunchyfrog.Sun.COM (David Hsu) (02/20/89)

In article <744@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP> hermann@.ucalgary.ca (Michael Hermann) writes:
> I think a large liquid crystal would do 
>the trick, just large enough to fit over your license plate. Detector
>goes off, pulls relay, drives liquid crystal (probably off car 12VDC),
>plate made unviewable.

I don't know about this home-use version, but this here Edumund Scientific
catalog lists "LC Light Shutter Windows"; "On" time (clear) 10ms, "Off"
time (opaque) 30ms.  Problems are in the cost: 6"x6" = $89, 1'x1' = $170,
and you have to provide a small power supply: 60-90vac, 60Hz, 20ma/sq ft.

Me, I think the old trick of using a slave-strobe disguised as driving
lights oughta work admirably (and cheaply!), especially in something like
a Camaro where the fogs are adjacent to the front plate.

-dave

David Hsu, just this guy, you know		dhsu@sun.com
						hsu@eneevax.umd.edu

"Yam sausages, you see?"

gts@dasys1.UUCP (G. T. Samson) (02/21/89)

In article <353@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes:

> [detector that closes shutter over your license plate, with nasty
> message on it, or the Chief of Police's plate...]

In West Germany, a friend told me, the way they nail people for driving
through red lights at night is also automated; when you pass through
a red light, a flash goes off, lighting up your rear plate for a picture.

Someone figured out that clear nail polish would cause a HUGE amount of
glare/reflection off one's license plate, enough to keep one's license
plate from being photographed... and what was the result?

It's now nearly impossible to buy clear nail polish in W. Germany.  (Or
at least it was while he was there.)  He told me, too, that a favorite
night's hanging out for him and his friends was to get up on the roof
of a high building and sit with a few beers at nightfall, and wait for
the flashes to start going off at the streetcorners...

Hmm... wonder if clear polish would do me any good if I were going to
be night-speeding? (1/8 8-) )

-- 
Name: Gregory T. Samson
AKA:  The Evil MicroWizard [and once An Insane Man]
Nets: dasys1!gts@masa.com [NOT gts@prep.AI.MIT.EDU!] ...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!gts
Quote:  "You've made my day, and now you have to sleep in it." - TMBG

snoopy@sopwith.UUCP (Snoopy) (02/21/89)

In article <2786@rti.UUCP> jbs@rti.UUCP (Joe Simpson) writes:
|In article <27002@sgi.SGI.COM> koontz@oregon writes:
|>
|>Wear a ronald reagan mask, or ski mask.
|>Lets see someone make it illegal to cover your visage.
|
|Actually, it's illegal in quite a few small towns, or so I was told by a
|policeman. I've never gone to the courthouse and looked up the laws, though.
|I think some of these laws specify that it's only illegal to wear a mask
|after dark.

Oh great, it's illegal to protect your face from frostbite.
    _____     
   /_____\    Snoopy
  /_______\   
    |___|     tekecs.gwd.tek.com!sopwith!snoopy
    |___|     sun!nosun!illian!sopwith!snoopy

"Land of the free, home of the brave."

jgo@mcgp1.UUCP (John Opalko, N7KBT) (02/22/89)

In article <1580@anasaz.UUCP>, john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) writes:
> 
> Even nastier, the cameras work with infrared strobes and film
> and are run at night, when it is much harder to spot the vehicle
> holding the radar.

So, you cover your plates with a material that's transparent to visible
light (so you're legal) but opaque to I/R.

I attended a demo of a surgical I/R laser a while back, and the laser op
said that those of us who were wearing glasses were safe, but the others
had to put on safety glasses.  The safeties looked like they were made of
plain old ordinary transparent plastic.  This was a 10 watt laser, so if few
millimeters of plastic blocked enough I/R to protect our eyes, it should
be sufficient to prevent the RoboCop from getting an image of a license plate.

Anybody know for sure what plastics are I/R opaque?


				John Opalko, N7KBT

				jgo@mcgp1.UUCP
				john@n7kbt.WA.COM


	"Honest, officer, it's there to keep the plates clean."

alien@cpoint.UUCP (Alien Wells) (02/22/89)

In article <418@lzaz.ATT.COM> hgp@lzaz.ATT.COM (H.PAGE) writes:
>Apparently, the Multinova units have been in use in Switzerland since 
>the Seventies.  ...

Photo radar units are in common use throughout most of Europe.  My mother
got a 'remote' ticket in W. Germany in 1975 - and the units were not new
then.  I also 'know' they are in use in France.

In Europe and Japan, radar detectors are also illegal.  There is a thriving
black market in US mfg radar detectors - the foreign transmitters use the
same frequencies as US transmitters.

Furthermore, it is VERY illegal to do anything to cover/deface your license
plates.  For a while, it was common to cover your license plate with varnish
(just to make it stay clean, officer!) which would give nothing but glare to
the camera.  It is now basically a felony offense to varnish your license
plate in France.

Of course, France is the country that is considering a system to have your
car automatically ticket you for speeding ...


-- 
=============================================================================
		A path is a terrible thing to waste ...
	decvax!frog!cpoint!alien	bu_cs!mirror!frog!cpoint!alien
=============================================================================

depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jeff DePolo) (02/23/89)

In article <2061@cpoint.UUCP> alien@cpoint.UUCP (Alien Wells) writes:
>In article <418@lzaz.ATT.COM> hgp@lzaz.ATT.COM (H.PAGE) writes:
>In Europe and Japan, radar detectors are also illegal.  There is a thriving
>black market in US mfg radar detectors - the foreign transmitters use the
>same frequencies as US transmitters.
>	decvax!frog!cpoint!alien	bu_cs!mirror!frog!cpoint!alien

Not so.  Europe, Asia, and even some parts of Canada use radar frequencies that
differ from X, K, and Ka band that we have here in the U.S.  Bel used to make
a European version of one of their detectors - it worked on the 3 common
bands used in Europe.  Europe has about a dozen or more different bands
licensed.  A number of the bands are right around 10 GHz, so some U.S.
detectors will see this other frequency as an X-band signal.  It will
depend on the bandwidth of the detector are to whether or not it will
pick up the off-band signal.  In general, don't trust a U.S. detector
to work in other places.  After all, every country has their own version of
the FCC which dictates what frequencies are to be used for radar.  They
don't coordinate their frequencies with each other.

							--- Jeff 


+----------------------------------------------+------------------------------+
|  Jeff DePolo  [depolo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu]  | o  The best things in life   |
|   =>  The University of Pennsylvania  <=     |    come in six-packs.        |
| Class of 1991 - Computer Science Engineering | o  Life begins at 85 MPH.    |
+----------------------------------------------+ o  It's not illegal if they  |
| DISCLAIMER:  Someone else used my account.   |    don't catch you.          |
+----------------------------------------------+------------------------------+

hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (02/24/89)

In article <1772@mcgp1.UUCP> jgo@mcgp1.UUCP (John Opalko, N7KBT) writes:
}In article <1580@anasaz.UUCP>, john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) writes:
}> Even nastier, the cameras work with infrared strobes and film
}> and are run at night, when it is much harder to spot the vehicle
}> holding the radar.
}
}So, you cover your plates with a material that's transparent to visible
}light (so you're legal) but opaque to I/R.

In California, at least, it's illegal to cover your plates with
_anything_, transparent or not.

Also, some of the radar units here aren't mounted on vehicles.  They're on
permanent posts and traffic signals, instead.  They're easy to miss, if
you're new to the neighborhood (and the boxes are bullet proof, if you're
not (-: ).

-- 
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@ttidca.tti.com)  Illegitimati Nil
Citicorp(+)TTI                                                 Carborundum
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (213) 452-9191, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405 {csun|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe

dave@onfcanim.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (03/13/89)

In article <1772@mcgp1.UUCP> jgo@mcgp1.UUCP (John Opalko, N7KBT) writes:
>
>So, you cover your plates with a material that's transparent to visible
>light (so you're legal) but opaque to I/R.
>
>I attended a demo of a surgical I/R laser a while back, and the laser op
>said that those of us who were wearing glasses were safe, but the others
>had to put on safety glasses.  The safeties looked like they were made of
>plain old ordinary transparent plastic.  This was a 10 watt laser, so if few
>millimeters of plastic blocked enough I/R to protect our eyes, it should
>be sufficient to prevent the RoboCop from getting an image of a license plate.
>
>Anybody know for sure what plastics are I/R opaque?

It depends on the wavelength.  The laser may have been a CO2 laser, which
produces infrared with a wavelength of about 10 microns.  This is so far
removed from visible light (0.4 - 0.7 microns) that many things clear
to visible light are quite opaque to the laser (including ordinary glass).

But infrared film is not sensitive to 10 micron IR.  Instead, it is sensitive
to the near IR just beyond 0.7 microns in wavelength.  Almost anything that
looks transparent to white light (and thus to visible red light) will also
be transparent to near-IR, unless it was specifically designed to be
a near-IR filter.

soley@moegate.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) (05/08/89)

First off I've directed follow-ups to rec.autos in the vain hope that this
"discussion" will go there and stay there. 

In article <9556@watcgl.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (Kim Nguyen) writes:
>I am seriously annoyed by the silly 100 kph speed limit on the 401.  I
>have considered using a radar detector, but from what I've heard so
>far (if you get caught):
>
>	- the radar detector gets confiscated
>	- you get nailed with a fine for using one
>	- you get nailed for speeding
>	- you get demerit points 
>	- your insurance rates go up

All of the above. I've had the pleasure of witnessing what happens to your
confiscated radar detector (hint: it involves a sledgehammer). 

There are a number of practical reasons why you wouldn't want to bother with a 
radar detector, first off it's real easy for a cop to spot someone with a 
detector, some of the newest radar units the police have can even detect them.
Once caught with a radar detector you can bet your boots the cop will go over 
your car with a fine toothed comb looking for the slightest infraction. 
Secondly it's also pretty easy for the police to set up a radar trap that won't 
set off your detector, radar detectors rely on the fact that you can detect 
the beam long before the machine can make a reliable reading, in the modern
radar units the beam is much more tightly focused than it used to be, this 
eliminates 'phantom' readings and allows the officer to specifically pinpoint
the vehicle the reading came from, so if the radar is pointed at an angle 
across the road, or set up just after a curve in the road your radar detector
won't go off until you're already in range for a reading (this is why you'll 
often see OPP cruisers in the median at a 45 degree angle to the roadway), 
Thirdly an increasing number of the units out there only broadcast when the
officer pushes a button to take a reading, against these your detector would
only work if you got lucky and were in the path of the beam when someone else
got a reading taken. So in other words if you buy a radar detector chances are
the only thing it will do is beep when you've already been caught ($300 bucks
for a box that will beep to tell me I've lost my licence, I'll buy that)

>What have your experiences been with radar detectors?  Can police stop
>you (if you're not speeding) if they see a radar detector sitting on
>your dash? 

You bet they can, they cannot randomly stop you and search for hidden units
unless you exhibit behavior consistant with having one, but having it sitting
right out on the dash is certianly probable cause (it's too bad we don't have
laws against criminal stupidity, as that would apply too) 


I've tried to hold my tounge but don't think I can any longer so, zippo in hand
it's time to 
FLAME ON:

Ownership and operation of a radar detector is illegal, if you want to break
the law in this fashion that's between you and the officer who WILL catch you.
However it's extremely rude to say the least for you think that it's appropriate
for you to expose system owners and administrators to the potential dangers
you just have by using their systems to discuss an illegal activity, there are
laws which prohibit use of communications systems (i.e. the phone lines) for
illegal activities, although it's unlikely anyone would bother trying to enforce
them in this case, and more importantly it can adversely affect the careers or 
professional image of the system administrators. When I brought USENET into my 
organization I accepted a certian amount of risk, but I felt the benefits were 
well worth that risk, but as SA I also have the right to minimize my risk by not
carrying groups where such risk is high (like alt.drugs). You could have, 
through careful wording, asked the same question and gotten the same answers
without making it obvious that you were intending to commit a crime. You've 
now made every ont.general reader guilty of conspiracy, and I think we deserve
an apology!.

FLAME OFF:

Whew!


-- 
Norman Soley - The Communications Guy - Ontario Ministry of the Environment
Until the next maps go out:	moegate!soley@ontenv.UUCP 
if you roll your own: 	uunet!{attcan!ncrcan|mnetor!ontmoh}!ontenv!moegate!soley
I'd like to try golf but I just can't bring myself to buy a pair of plaid pants

kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (Kim Nguyen) (05/10/89)

In article <294@moegate.UUCP> soley@moegate.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes:
>First off I've directed follow-ups to rec.autos in the vain hope that this
>"discussion" will go there and stay there. 
>
> [technical stuff deleted]
>
>Ownership and operation of a radar detector is illegal, if you want to break
>the law in this fashion that's between you and the officer who WILL catch you.
>However it's extremely rude to say the least for you think that it's appropriate
>for you to expose system owners and administrators to the potential dangers
>you just have by using their systems to discuss an illegal activity, there are
>laws which prohibit use of communications systems (i.e. the phone lines) for
>illegal activities
> [some ranting deleted]
>You could have, 
>through careful wording, asked the same question and gotten the same answers
>without making it obvious that you were intending to commit a crime. You've 
>now made every ont.general reader guilty of conspiracy, and I think we deserve
>an apology!.

If you will re-read my original posting carefully (this time), you
will notice that NOWHERE did I express an intention to commit any
crime whatsoever.  Discussing "criminal" activities is not a crime in
itself, I'm sure you will agree.

I believe I wrote, "I *have* considered using a radar detector..."
(emphasis on past tense).  This is indeed the case, and I never stated
anywhere that I intended to actually use one.  And in any case, I have
used one, back when it was still legal in Quebec.  I am fully within
the bounds of the law.

Too bad you were unable to discern my careful wording.  

I think *I* deserve an apology from *YOU*.

BTW: you were wrong about radar detectors only going off in you were
already being clocked.  They tell you when people AHEAD of you are
being clocked.  Read Car and Driver *carefully*.
--
Kim Nguyen 					kim@watsup.waterloo.edu
Systems Design Engineering  --  University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada