Bodick@CIS.UPENN.EDU (Andre Marquis) (10/21/87)
I'm still wondering if there is going to be a standard user-interface (similar to SunView if need be) toolkit for NeWS. I talked breifly with Saul Wold of Sun (I'm not sure what his position with them is.) and he indicated that there is nothing on the horizon. Is this indicative of Sun's long term commitment to NeWS? Is every NeWS application destined to have a different user interface? Is each developer expected to assault such a gargantuan and important project individually? User interface consistency is the most important part of an application. DEC and HP have signaled their commitment to X by developing C based toolkits. They are public domain. How does Sun expect NeWS to "win" without an analogous product? From the dearth of replies to my image queries, I'm assuming the user community is as apathetic toward NeWS as I am acerbic. Sun is right out. Comments? Andre Marquis Department of Pathology and Lab Medicine 2 Gibson Building Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania 3600 Spruce Street Philadelphia, PA 19106 bodick@cis.upenn.edu
trevor@GRASP.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Trevor Darrell) (10/21/87)
From: Andre Marquis <Bodick@cis.upenn.edu>
I'm still wondering if there is going to be a standard user-interface
(similar to SunView if need be) toolkit for NeWS. I talked breifly with
Saul Wold of Sun (I'm not sure what his position with them is.) and he
indicated that there is nothing on the horizon. Is this indicative of Sun's
long term commitment to NeWS?
There *is* a framework for development of a standard user interface. In
case you haven't read the NeWS manual yet, it is collectively contained
in liteUI, litewin, litemenu, and liteitem. Since I began programming
in NeWS I am constantly impressed at the elegance and efficiency
of providing a class based "toolkit". To be sure the lite*.ps packages
are not complete, and perhaps not standardized yet, which is *why* they
are called `lite' (tastes great, less filling.) But X11 is far from
being stable yet, (if you read XPERT), and all my colleagues who
have tried writing X10.4 code using a toolkit have come away frustrated.
>From the dearth of replies to my image queries, I'm assuming the user
community is as apathetic toward NeWS as I am acerbic. Sun is right out.
DEC and HP have signaled their commitment to X by developing C based
toolkits. They are public domain. How does Sun expect NeWS to "win"
without an analogous product?
In the future don't waste the time and energy of the people on this
list with this sort of "but X will win over NeWS" flame-bait. If you
enjoy programming in X, fine, you are more than welcome to continue.
One note of interest- According to yesterdays announced Sun/AT&T agreement,
NeWS/X.11 will become a part of standard Unix.
Trevor Darrell
trevor@grasp.cis.upenn.edu
CIS Research Computing, U. of Penn.rrt@duke.cs.duke.edu (Russell R. Tuck) (10/21/87)
Sun has said, from the time they introduced NeWS, that they will implement
SunView on top of NeWS and make this a part of SunOS 4.0. This means they
will provide at least the same toolkit functionality they currently provide.
Russ
--
Russell R. Tuck, III ARPA: rrt@cs.duke.edu
Computer Science Department CSNET: rrt@duke
Duke University UUCP: {ihnp4|decvax|mcnc}!duke!rrt
Durham, NC 27706, USA Phone: (919) 684-5110 ext. 227
--
Russell R. Tuck, III ARPA: rrt@cs.duke.edu
Computer Science Department CSNET: rrt@duke
Duke University UUCP: {ihnp4|decvax|mcnc}!duke!rrt
Durham, NC 27706, USA Phone: (919) 684-5110 ext. 227zwicky@kiwi.cis.ohio-state.edu (Elizabeth D. Zwicky) (10/22/87)
In article <8710202033.AA00500@linc.cis.upenn.edu> Bodick@CIS.UPENN.EDU (Andre Marquis) writes: > >I'm still wondering if there is going to be a standard user-interface >(similar to SunView if need be) toolkit for NeWS. I talked breifly with >Saul Wold of Sun (I'm not sure what his position with them is.) and he >indicated that there is nothing on the horizon. Is this indicative of Sun's >long term commitment to NeWS? You don't seem to understand NeWS really at all. There already is a standard user-interface for NeWS, consisting of the LiteMenu and LiteWindow classes. It hasn't been fleshed out, but it exists, and it's cake to use; all my NeWS programs have interfaces just like the ones that came with the package. Now, there are still deficiencies, but the documentation clearly indicates that Sun does intend to update and improve these interfaces, and discusses their commitment to standard interfaces. You may be confused by the fact that one can short-circuit the defaults, or by the fact that they are in the window system classes, not in the C-libraries. >From the dearth of replies to my image queries, I'm assuming the user >community is as apathetic toward NeWS as I am acerbic. Sun is right out. >Comments? Why not assume that the user community is not terribly interested in NeWS bitmaps? I am an enthusiastic NeWS user and programmer (in the original PostScript), with four or five fun graphics programs to my credit, and I didn't answer because I don't deal with bitmaps. As I remember, my husband, who envied X users their backgrounds, had fiddled with bitmaps and did reply. I am hoping/praying for the next release; I want a better terminal emulator, a lock screen program, and more X support, and non-PostScript people around me want more help dealing with NeWS from other languages (not just C but also Pascal and Lisp). A good half our staff will switch as soon as they have a good terminal emulator and a screen lock. The attitude some of our operators have towards X is kind of mean, really; between the bad user interface and the bugs it displays on a Pyramid, it's got a lot of them fed up. >Andre Marquis Elizabeth Zwicky (zwicky@ohio-state.arpa or cbosgd!osu-cis!tut!zwicky)
Bodick@CIS.UPENN.EDU (Andre Marquis) (10/22/87)
I apologize for my tone and for naming people inside Sun in my last message. I will respond to Trevor Darrells comments. I am developing a large window based application. I have to decide between X and NeWS soon. Perhaps now is an inopportune time to make such a commitment. I desire only to lower development effort, cost and frustration (Which is, regretably, visibly high.). The question is germane and barely "flame-bait." My initial, more docile query on this subject went entirely unanswered. My recent, virulent posting resulted in a Sun representative calling me. I agree with many of your comments re the technical superiority of NeWS, Mr. Darrells. While I'm mollified, my toolkit question remains mostly unanswered (lite's all that's in sight?). Sun is committed to NeWS. I'll stick to coding. "Flames" to me, please. Andre Marquis Department of Pathology and Lab Medicine 2 Gibson Building Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania 3600 Spruce Street Philadelphia, PA 19106 bodick@cis.upenn.edu
mss+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Mark Steven Sherman) (10/23/87)
As announced, the joint IBM-CMU ITC project is placing its Andrew Toolkit on the X tape. This toolkit was designed to be transportable between window systems and we have had it running under both Andrew's window system and X.V11R1. Although we probably will not port it to NeWS, I do not think there is an inherent technical problem with doing so. If you are interested, I recommend waiting until it gets on the X tape and taking a look. (Why live in one world (X/NeWS) when you can coexist in several?) -Mark
djones@megatest.UUCP (Dave Jones) (10/23/87)
in article <8710211435.AA23042@grasp.cis.upenn.edu>, trevor@GRASP.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Trevor Darrell) says: > > > From: Andre Marquis <Bodick@cis.upenn.edu> > I'm still wondering if there is going to be a standard user-interface > (similar to SunView if need be) toolkit for NeWS. I talked breifly with > Saul Wold of Sun (I'm not sure what his position with them is.) and he > indicated that there is nothing on the horizon. Is this indicative of Sun's > long term commitment to NeWS? > > There *is* a framework for development of a standard user interface. In > case you haven't read the NeWS manual yet, it is collectively contained > in liteUI, litewin, litemenu, and liteitem. Since I began programming > in NeWS I am constantly impressed at the elegance and efficiency > of providing a class based "toolkit". To be sure the lite*.ps packages > are not complete, and perhaps not standardized yet, which is *why* they > are called `lite' (tastes great, less filling.) But X11 is far from > being stable yet, (if you read XPERT), and all my colleagues who > have tried writing X10.4 code using a toolkit have come away frustrated. > > >From the dearth of replies to my image queries, I'm assuming the user > community is as apathetic toward NeWS as I am acerbic. Sun is right out. > > DEC and HP have signaled their commitment to X by developing C based > toolkits. They are public domain. How does Sun expect NeWS to "win" > without an analogous product? > > > In the future don't waste the time and energy of the people on this > list with this sort of "but X will win over NeWS" flame-bait. If you > enjoy programming in X, fine, you are more than welcome to continue. > > One note of interest- According to yesterdays announced Sun/AT&T agreement, > NeWS/X.11 will become a part of standard Unix. > > > Trevor Darrell > trevor@grasp.cis.upenn.edu > > CIS Research Computing, U. of Penn. I didn't read it as flame-bait. Just resignation. (Talking about wasting time and energy might be construed by some as flame-bait, I might add.) He asks a question that I, and others I am sure, are quite interested in hearing the answer to. I would strongly suggest that NeWs should have a standard user-interface which is a superset of SunView. Not "similar to", but "IS" a superset of. If Sun/ATT could announce such intensions, I would be much more inclined to write applications in SunView. There are some problems with SunView, but they are not serious enough to warrant pulling the rug out from under those who have used it. There's a chapter in the SunView manual on "Converting SunWindows Programs to SunView". I sure don't want to see a "Converting SunView Programs to NeWS" chapter. So, Sun, if you are listening, what say you?
djones@megatest.UUCP (Dave Jones) (10/23/87)
in article <10454@duke.cs.duke.edu>, rrt@duke.cs.duke.edu (Russell R. Tuck) says: > > Sun has said, from the time they introduced NeWS, that they will implement > SunView on top of NeWS and make this a part of SunOS 4.0. This means they > will provide at least the same toolkit functionality they currently provide. > > Russ > -- > Russell R. Tuck, III ARPA: rrt@cs.duke.edu > Computer Science Department CSNET: rrt@duke > Duke University UUCP: {ihnp4|decvax|mcnc}!duke!rrt > Durham, NC 27706, USA Phone: (919) 684-5110 ext. 227 > -- > Russell R. Tuck, III ARPA: rrt@cs.duke.edu > Computer Science Department CSNET: rrt@duke > Duke University UUCP: {ihnp4|decvax|mcnc}!duke!rrt > Durham, NC 27706, USA Phone: (919) 684-5110 ext. 227 This is what I wanted to hear. Thanks, Sun. Dave Jones Megatest Corp. 880 Fox Lane San Jose, CA. 95131 (408) 437-9700 Ext 3227 UUCP: ucbvax!sun!megatest!djones ARPA: megatest!djones@riacs.ARPA
montnaro@sprite.steinmetz (Skip Montanaro) (10/23/87)
In article <644@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> zwicky@kiwi.cis.ohio-state.edu (Elizabeth D. Zwicky) writes: >I am hoping/praying for the next release; I >want a better terminal emulator, a lock screen program, and more X >support, and non-PostScript people around me want more help dealing >with NeWS from other languages (not just C but also Pascal and Lisp). > >Elizabeth Zwicky (zwicky@ohio-state.arpa or cbosgd!osu-cis!tut!zwicky) We're beta testing NeWS 1.1 right now. PSTerm: Psterm is faster, and has more features (like settable lines and columns, page mode, ...), plus it is more intelligent (reasonable?) about reading the environment (terminal size, etc). I've tried its vt100 emulation and found it is still lacking in at least one way there. /etc/termcap has the clear screen sequence defined as "\e[H\e[2J". Psterm appears to choke on the second escape sequence, thus preventing the screen from clearing. Of course, when running programs that don't use termcap to drive the screen, such as DEC's VMS utilities, there are lots of problems. (Try MONITOR on a VMS VAX sometime.) Lockscreen: Why not use the SunView lockscreen for the time being? It runs just fine from NeWS. X: 1.1 doesn't have X support yet. That's a separate merged X/NeWS product. Non-C support: As far as I know, there's no new support for languages other than C, certainly nothing equivalent to cps yet. Skip (montanaro@ge-crd.arpa or uunet!steinmetz!sprite!montanaro)
mikew@wyse1.wyse.com (Mike Wexler) (10/24/87)
]] From: Andre Marquis <Bodick@cis.upenn.edu> ]] I'm still wondering if there is going to be a standard user-interface ]] (similar to SunView if need be) toolkit for NeWS. I talked breifly with ]] Saul Wold of Sun (I'm not sure what his position with them is.) and he ]] indicated that there is nothing on the horizon. Is this indicative of Sun's ]] long term commitment to NeWS? I would like to through in my two bits. First of all, when they announced news they said they where going to upgrade SunView to use it. They also said there would be a few incompatibilities(This years old and from memory so correct me if I'm wrong.). They planned on have News running Sun OS 4.0. When I talked to them a few days ago, heres what they told me. Due to the industry misunderstanding their committment to X, they are holding up the release of NeWS ontop of Sun OS until the get the NeWs/X port done. My interpretation is that in mid-next year when they get the port done they will probably put it on top of SUN OS 5 or 6 and integrate it with SunView. There will be a few incompatibilities with SunView and many extensions. BTW, they made it extremely clear that they don't want people to think they are favoring NeWS over X, and that this was holding them back from doing everything they wanted to do with NeWS.
gilbert@hci.hw.ac.uk (Gilbert Cockton) (10/29/87)
In article <8710202033.AA00500@linc.cis.upenn.edu> Bodick@CIS.UPENN.EDU (Andre Marquis) writes: > >User interface consistency is the most important part of an application. > Does the author really believe this, or is it polemic? Assuming the former, it must be said that functionality still remains important, AS important as usability. The two should be given equal weighting, and their interaction noted (some functionalities may support identical tasks, but one may support many of the tasks better than the others - logical sufficiency isn't the end of the story). Secondly, consistency between interactive applications is more than skin deep, and cannot be guaranteed by anything as superficial as a widget toolkit. Toolkits, if well-designed and properly evaluated, can improve usability by supporting a well-defined area of consistent behaviour across applications. In no way does widget behaviour constitute anything near the total behaviour of an interactive application. Returning to the design and evaluation qualification. Any old toolkit will not guarantee usability. Most of the emerging toolkits have been hacked out, not properly designed and evaluated. Even much of the Mac's superior tooling is due to direct use of Xerox results, and many of the Mac departures from Star have obviously not been through a Human Factors evaluation (no control over menu selection flashing until last OS release, very non-WYSIWYG dialogue boxes - fancy hiding text out of sight!). So please, don't rush out the toolkits. De facto standards are the last thing which real users need. I'm willing to live with inconsistencies until widget design matures from a hacker's game into controlled, user-centred process. -- Gilbert Cockton, Scottish HCI Centre, Ben Line Building, Edinburgh, EH1 1TN JANET: gilbert@uk.ac.hw.hci ARPA: gilbert%hci.hw.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ..{backbone}!mcvax!ukc!hwcs!hci!gilbert
NeWS-makers-request@BRILLIG.UMD.EDU (Don Hopkins) (11/09/87)
Oops, sorry about that -- I unsuccessfully munged the header of those last two messages to NeWS-makers. [This probably doesn't apply to the comp.windows.news newsgroup.] They shouldn't have said they were from me. Here are the original headers, for you enjoyment. (I'm changing the way the NeWS-makers distribution is done in the hopes of putting an end to the repeated messages. Please bear with me!) [If you see this several times, you'll know I'm still working on it!] -Don (NeWS-makers-request@brillig.umd.edu) Path: mimsy!oddjob!hao!boulder!sunybcs!rutgers!ukma!uunet!seismo!sundc!sun!decwrl!spar!singer From: singer@spar.SPAR.SLB.COM (David Singer) Newsgroups: comp.windows.news Subject: Re: fast bitmaps Summary: Use BuildImage Message-ID: <1606@spar.SPAR.SLB.COM> Date: 21 Oct 87 16:08:13 GMT References: <172@PT.CS.CMU.EDU> Reply-To: singer@spar.UUCP (David Singer) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research - CASLAB Lines: 12 Path: mimsy!oddjob!hao!ames!sdcsvax!ucsdhub!esosun!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!hwcs!hci!gilbert From: gilbert@hci.hw.ac.uk (Gilbert Cockton) Newsgroups: comp.windows.news Subject: Re: Toolkit for NeWS Message-ID: <136@glenlivet.hci.hw.ac.uk> Date: 29 Oct 87 13:07:32 GMT References: <8710202033.AA00500@linc.cis.upenn.edu> Reply-To: gilbert@hci.hw.ac.uk (Gilbert Cockton) Organization: Scottish HCI Centre Lines: 37