russ@dash.mitre.org (Russell Leighton) (02/28/90)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 90 11:10:38 GMT From: David Lau-Kee <laukee%canon.uucp@NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK> [...] Come on Sun, SORT IT OUT!!! We're getting seriously pissed off at your reluctance to show any commitment to NeWS. [...] Yeh! Since it looks like Sun is abandoning NeWS (wimps!) a suggestion: Sun, why don't you license Display PostScript and NeXTStep? I know NeXT is your arch rival but at least we developers can have our PostScript, you can adhere to "Standards", and most importantly we won't need to deal with X11 ugliness. Russ. ARPA: russ@dash.mitre.org Russell Leighton MITRE Signal Processing Lab 7525 Colshire Dr. McLean, Va. 22102 USA
ks@tut.fi (Syst{ Kari) (02/28/90)
In article <9002280156.AA29633@dash.mitre.org> russ@dash.mitre.org (Russell Leighton) writes:
Since it looks like Sun is abandoning NeWS (wimps!)
Really ????
a suggestion: Sun, why don't you license Display PostScript
and NeXTStep? I know NeXT is your arch rival but at least
I'm not planning to license it, but what are the technical
differences between Display Ps + NextStep and NeWS ?
Does anybody know any good references ?
--
This article represents my personal views.
"X is the Fortran of windowing systems."
Kari Systa, Tampere Univ. Technology, Box 527, 33101 Tampere, Finland
work: +358 31 162585 fax: +358 31 162913 home: +358 31 177412sjs@spectral.ctt.bellcore.com (Stan Switzer) (03/01/90)
laukee@canon.UUCP (David Lau-Kee) writes: > Come on Sun, SORT IT OUT!!! We're getting > seriously pissed off at your reluctance to show any commitment to NeWS. Yes, please. For heaven's sake, put us out of your misery. Either: 1) Show a strong commitment to NeWS with: a) Razzle-dazzle NeWS-only value-added products b) Fast, robust servers c) XNeWS as the defalut window system d) A more liberal licensing policy or a free "sample" implementation. Or 2) Give up on NeWS entirely. Maybe IBM can score points with Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. You'll only succeed in driving your customers away. Stan Switzer sjs@bellcore.com
lerici@super.org (Peter W. Brewer) (03/01/90)
They are probably too busy worrying about what IBM/NeXT is doing with their new inexpensive workstation. It didn't take IBM long to produce the hdwr.. I guess NeXT is better as a software shop. -Peter Peter Brewer |||| ||||| ||||||||| |||||| //|||||\ |||||| lerici@super.org || ||__ || || || || || THE Supercomputing || || ||^^^^^^\\ || || || Research Center ~~~ |||||||| ||||| || || ||||| \\|||||/ ||||||
korp@atlantis.ees.anl.gov (Peter Korp) (03/01/90)
It is quite sad that Sun has brought itself to this position. Since my last message which asked about NeWS support from third parties I have recieved just two replys. In that time we have seen messages from the grasshopper group and other developers who are giving up hope. I am not just pissed at Sun, but also at the groups that allows Sun to get away all these years with their crap. Being fairly new to NeWS I was impressed with how easy it was to prototype applications and how much more professional they appeared than with other window systems. Now though it is time to move on. Sponsors don't want to be locked into Sun, and NeWS has done just that to us. Sun, if you are really out there, do what is suggested, put OpenWindows into the public domain, or just drop NeWS and license NeXTStep. There is no doubt that this is a "standard" and I won't have to deal with the X nasties! Code is fairly simple to port to NeXTStep if written properly, so why not really become a standards company again??? Peter A. Korp Argonne National Laboratory None of these opinions are my employers or anyone elses.
phil@scripps.edu (Phil Cohen) (03/01/90)
I hear that OpenWindows is to be distributed as part of System 5 Release 4. Everyone that gets S5R4 will get the source. Sun will retain DeskSet and DevGuide as their added value, so if you want all the cool drag and drop applications you will need to buy Sun. Is there hope for other vendors to include OpenWindows with their S5R4 ports? As far as I am concerned, OpenWindows should be a line item for all future equipment purchases that come out of this operation. Am I dreaming? Phil Cohen Research Institute of Scripps Clinic
korp@TRIPOLI.EES.ANL.GOV (03/02/90)
Yes OpenWindows is going to be the core window technology in System 5.4, but you only get source if you buy source to 5.4. Other companies are simply ignoring the fact that OW exists in 5.4 and are only offering X11 on their machines. OW will reach the performance of most X11R4 servers quite soon, so performance should not be the issue. It all seems political. Do you think DEC, IBM, HP or others will ever offer OW even if they adopt 5.4? They only way to make this happen is if enough customers ask for it! I know of one major 88000 based workstation vendor that is claiming 5.4 compatibility without OW support. The only reason they don't have OW is because no one is asking for it! Some people inside that organizaion are trying to make OW a reality but get shot down by higher management because $80,000 is too much to port the OW server to their machine. OW needs more vocal support for it to succeed. Peter A. Korp Argonne National Laboratory All opinions are my own and not representative of my employer!
sjs@spectral.ctt.bellcore.com (Stan Switzer) (03/03/90)
In article <9003011602.AA19024@tripoli.ees.anl.gov> korp@TRIPOLI.EES.ANL.GOV writes: > Do you think DEC, IBM, HP or others will ever offer > OW even if they adopt 5.4? They only way to make this happen is if > enough customers ask for it! And why will a user scream for OpenWindows if there are no OpenWindows-dependent applications? Answer this: why do Sun's deskset applications use XView instead of NeWS? As a developer, I know why I want NeWS, and I also know that if I can't count on a large market penetration, then the market for NeWS applications is quite limited. The only organization in a position to put NeWS over the top is Sun, and they can only do that by giving X/NeWS have a distinct added value for end users. Where is this added value? Where are the (NeWS) drawing applications? Where are the hypermedia applications? Where are the direct-manipulation interfaces? > Some people > inside that organization are trying to make OW a reality but get shot > down by higher management because $80,000 is too much to port the OW > server to their machine. Do you have any idea how little $80,000 is to a company like DG? It can cost that much just to have a meeting with "higher management" once you start to figure in the cost of everybody's time. As you say, if the users want it, companies will deliver. > All opinions are my own and not representative of my employer! Likewise. Stan Switzer sjs@bellcore.com
smith@canon.UUCP (Mark Smith) (03/03/90)
In response to David Lau-Kee's posting "What is Sun doing?", Tom Schneider writes: > There was an article in (the 1990 January issue?) of Scientific American > about technical races. It seems that when two nearly equivalent products > appear, one of them can take over because of random market forces. So VHS > beat out Beta video. It is tempting to draw an analogy between NeWS and Betamax, in that both are seen as "technically superior" products which lost in the marketplace. One flaw in the analogy is that VHS and Betamax were competing technologies meant to do exactly the same thing; there was no point in both surviving. With NeWS, Sun has the opportunity to position it as a complementary rather than purely competing technology to X. This whole "X vs. NeWS" debate, implying that there can be only one winner, has inevitably damaged NeWS more than X. Because X has a C-based interface (well, a multitude of them actually), it will be *perceived* as easier to learn and use by the vast majority of the Unix/PC programmer community. Look at the commercial Unix world (for instance, the financial services sector), where most Unix vendors see the greatest growth potential. There is no way that systems houses/DP shops in these areas are going to be convinced that they should learn PostScript. Obviously, a C interface to NeWS is no problem, but the perception already exists that NeWS-is-PostScript-is-strange and X-is-C-is-familiar. With the merged server, Sun has a product which requires a precise marketing strategy to win both commercially and technically. Unavoidably, X will be seen as the basic, standards-oriented window system. If that's all the support that your application needs, then fine, use it. For developers who need better support than X delivers (device independence, imaging, server enrichment, etc.), then the learning effort put into NeWS will be worthwhile. (And no, adding "display PostScript" to X will *not* make it as powerful as NeWS.) The only way that Sun is going to see a reward for their efforts is to promote both sides of the merged server as solutions, and support developers on both sides. Standards are wonderful for producing networked multi-vendor Lotus 1-2-3 clones, but not so great for advancing the state of the art. +-----------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Mark Smith | tel: +44 483 574 325 | | Canon Research Centre Europe Ltd. | fax: +44 483 574 360 | | 19 Frederick Sanger Road +------------------------------+ | Surrey Research Park | inet: smith@canon.co.uk | | Guildford Surrey UK GU2 5YD | uucp: ukc!uos-ee!canon!smith | +-----------------------------------+------------------------------+
phil@SCRIPPS.EDU (Phil Cohen) (03/03/90)
A guy from Solbourne was here yesterday. He was an ex-SUN employee and was interested in talking about why we like NeWS so much. Anyway, one thing led to another and he told me that for a while he had close ties to MasPar. The prez of MasPar is an ex-VP of DEC and it turns out that DEC had decided that there was no way that they were going to allow SUN to pull off another "NFS phenomenon" with NeWS. From what my source said, it seems there were unlimited funds available for shooting down NeWS. Like I said, make OW a line item on all your future workstation purchases. Do not do business with those that neglect to port OW to System 5 Release 4. I remember when we had to do the same thing in the early days of TCP/IP and NFS in order to get the attention of vendors. Of course, then there was no X11 arround to confuse the issues. Phil My favorite reason for liking NeWS? You get the source for everything.