jag@Eng.Sun.COM (James Gosling) (03/07/90)
The windows group has spent the past months focused on X11. With the upcoming Summer release of X11/NeWS, we feel comfortable about the quality of the X11 side of the product. We are now restoring balance to our efforts and will be spending significantly more energy on NeWS. The timing of the rash of "NeWS is dead" messages on the net has been really ironic; they started just after we kicked off the new internal emphasis on NeWS. It has always been clear to us (Sun) that we have to produce both standards and innovative technology. In the windows area the X11/NeWS merge provides a synthesis of the two that allows us to deliver standards and to innovate. The combination of the X11 and NeWS protocols into one server provides a more flexible development platform and ultimately a larger application base for end users. X11 and the purely PostScript part of NeWS represent the standards side, while NeWS is where we will be concentrating our innovative leading edge technology We're doing a lot of work in turning TNT into a real product, and we're doing work on object-oriented client-side toolkits. There are a number of NeWS-based applications from Sun and third parties that will become available in the near future. Sun has significantly increased the resources it is dedicating to NeWS. This includes the NeWS portion of the X11/NeWS merged server, the NeWS toolkit, and the integration of our desktop environment with NeWS. In order to achieve greater focus on the NeWS technology, we have consolidated internal NeWS development under a single organization. In the forthcoming months you will see a much greater commitment to NeWS. Please send mail to tnt-request@sun.com if you would like to receive documentation for the experimental version of TNT distributed with OpenWindows 1.0. Domestic US customers should receive the documentation within three weeks. Overseas shipments are expected to take longer.
amanda@mermaid.intercon.com (Amanda Walker) (03/08/90)
In article <9003061912.AA10539@norquay.Eng.Sun.COM>, jag@Eng.Sun.COM (James Gosling) writes: > The windows group has spent the past months focused on X11. With > the upcoming Summer release of X11/NeWS, we feel comfortable about the > quality of the X11 side of the product. We are now restoring balance to > our efforts and will be spending significantly more energy on NeWS. Thank you. It's nice to hear that Sun hasn't abandoned NeWS after all, and it's even nicer to hear it from an authoritative source :-). I was hoping someone from Sun would pipe up and say something, actually. I hope I'll have to take back the evil nasty things I said about Sun last week... :-). Hopefully the Sun marketroids will get the idea this time around. -- Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view." --Obi-Wan Kenobi in "Return of the Jedi"
laukee@canon.UUCP (03/08/90)
I now have two poster-sized NeWS-makers messages on my wall. To the left, John Gilmore's "friends of NeWS may as well know truth" expose; To the right, James Gosling's "much greater commitment" retort. (I won't quote them here, if you don't know what I'm talking about just hit 'n'). Well, a couple of things still worry me. John says not to believe Sun even if they promise to fix all the problems tomorrow. James says that significant extra resources are now available for NeWS, and that the X11 bias is set for redress. John claims that the NeWS team has disintegrated, while James talks about consolidation [of the NeWS team] under a single organisation. John currently views NeWS [xnews] as a lose, and James says that tNt is set to become a real product and that Sun, and others, will be releasing NeWS-based applications Real Soon Now. [Though not, presumably, Grasshopper?] James hints at the standards / innovation bifurcation in consideration of the X11-NeWS debacle, while John talks about Sun's continued political and organisational faux pas. It is clear that The Two Faces of Sun has created an awful lot of confusion and mistrust by users and developers, [John, I guess, speaks for many of us]. But in trying to fathom out the truth we ought to ask ourselves who James speaks for. He works for Sun, and I noticed no disclaimer (good sign). He works on NeWS - and indeed, he started the sunDEW project at Sun (looking very good). He might be said to represent the good side of Sun, (technically driven, innovative, with [and here I plunge into supposition] that sense of "bugger the standards, I want the best" kind of belief in NeWS). Now we're cooking. What does this mean for NeWS? If nigh-on anyone else had posted the message instead of Gosling I think we'd all do best to follow John Gilmore's advice and file it in the trashcan. As it is, I guess Gosling has twice the investment in NeWS that any of us has. I tend to believe him when he talks about Sun's renewed commitment, and though I have misgivings about the facilitation of NeWS development through consolidation into a single organisation (could be read, "push them out together before we sink the boat"), but let's face it, Sun is too large to be non-factional, and if what we hear is true then *this* time the clever money rides with the NeWS group. *Now*, does anyone want to tell us about this X11/NeWS summer launch, and what's this mysterious OpenWindows 2? [The opinions expressed here are not necessarily shared by my employer] ------------- David Lau-Kee Canon Research Centre Europe, 17/20 Frederick Sanger Rd, Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU25YD, UK. NRS: laukee@uk.co.canon, INET: laukee%canon@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk UUCP: laukee@canon.uucp, PATH: ..!mcsun!ukc!uos-ee!canon!laukee Tel: +44 (0) 483 574325 Fax: +44 (0) 483 574360
barnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) (03/10/90)
In article <9003071155.AA05836@aida.canon.co.uk>, laukee@canon writes: >*Now*, does anyone want to tell us about this X11/NeWS summer launch, and >what's this mysterious OpenWindows 2? Well, I just received my official 1.0.1 OpenWindows package. It comes with a video tape! The video tape is geared for a system manager who has difficulty reading. Close up's of someone setting environment variables, typing "y", etc. I think Sun should have included a 5 or 10 minute example of using OpenWindows. Show the people what it looks like in action - so that they will have an interest in learning more about it. If I had a video tape that gave end users an introduction to USING OpenWindows, I would have something exciting. But the tape I got from Sun is just not worth passing on to another person, unless they want a chuckle. Anyhow - the Video mentions a program called "tutorial". You execute this program, and it teaches you everything you need to know. The Video also comes with several stickers, etc. that say the "tutorial" program in not included in OpenWindows 1.0.1 Using my great deductive powers, i predict that OpenWindows 2.0 will include this on line tutorial system. :-) -- Bruce G. Barnett <barnett@crd.ge.com> uunet!crdgw1!barnett
x11news_mgr@Eng.Sun.COM (sevans) (03/11/90)
Well, I just received my official 1.0.1 OpenWindows package. It comes with a video tape! The video tape is geared for a system manager who has difficulty reading. Close up's of someone setting environment variables, typing "y", etc. I think Sun should have included a 5 or 10 minute example of using OpenWindows. Show the people what it looks like in action - so that they will have an interest in learning more about it. If I had a video tape that gave end users an introduction to USING OpenWindows, I would have something exciting. This shortcoming of the video tape is well known at Sun. If a subsequent release of OpenWindows contains a video tape, the orientation will be much more along the lines that you are looking for. But the tape I got from Sun is just not worth passing on to another person, unless they want a chuckle. I'll give away the video's BIG GAG line right now. As the folks on the video are trying to figure out where to install the tape they say, "There is no place like /home/openwin". sevans
gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (03/12/90)
I'm glad that people believe James Gosling about NeWS more than they believe me. Check his message for specifics, though. Weed out the promises and soothing noises and what is left? > John claims that the NeWS team has disintegrated, while James talks about > consolidation [of the NeWS team] under a single organisation. The "old" NeWS team has disintegrated. There may be a "new" NeWS team... > ...Sun, and others, will be releasing NeWS-based > applications Real Soon Now. [Though not, presumably, Grasshopper?] Grasshopper has no NeWS products in the pipeline. At this point we are a consulting company. When we run out of consulting we'll dissolve it. > ...in trying to fathom out the truth we ought to ask ourselves who James > speaks for....He might be said to represent the good side of Sun, (technically > driven, innovative, with [and here I plunge into supposition] that sense of > "bugger the standards, I want the best" kind of belief in NeWS). I agree with this characterization; James is tops on my list. The problem is that he's been fooled before with Sun's promises, level of committment, and simply how much work it is to get from here to there. > . . .if what we hear > is true then *this* time the clever money rides with the NeWS group. Even if Sun has a high level of committment to NeWS, I can't see it as a viable window system unless they take it non-proprietary. I can see that a very committed Sun could make it a good, proprietary, replacement for SunView with some time and work. But the chance for it to take hold in the wide world as a proprietary product has been shot to hell by the combination of Sun, DEC, and X. Even as a free product it will be an uphill battle since the marketing war is already lost. -- John Gilmore {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@toad.com Boycott the census! In 1942, the Census Bureau told the Army which block every Japanese-American lived on, so they could be hustled to internment camps. Maximum penalty for refusing to answer: $100, no jail.
amanda@mermaid.intercon.com (Amanda Walker) (03/13/90)
In article <10762@hoptoad.uucp>, gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: > I'm glad that people believe James Gosling about NeWS more than they > believe me. Well, I don't want to get in the middle of an argument between two people I respect quite a bit, but I would say that James inches you out this time, John. In particular: - James is still working for Sun. I don't know much about the internal politics involved, but I've been following SunDEW -> NeWS -> OpenWindows progress from the outside, and of everyone who has worked on it, James is the one who has been there from the start. If he's just blowing hot air and Sun isn't doing anything, then he (and Sun) are about to lose one <expletive deleted> of a lot of their credibility. James now has a lot on the line, and he seems like enough of a realist not to do that unless there's something behind him to back it up. His posting was a lot stronger than just being enthusiastic at a windowing conference... > The "old" NeWS team has disintegrated. There may be a "new" NeWS team... That may not be all bad--I don't know enough to speculate. > I agree with this characterization; James is tops on my list. The problem > is that he's been fooled before with Sun's promises, level of committment, > and simply how much work it is to get from here to there. The same was true with X11, and it's still alive... :-). This need not be fatal unless you bet all of your assets on someone else's project. > Even if Sun has a high level of committment to NeWS, I can't see it as > a viable window system unless they take it non-proprietary. For that matter, Sun doesn't even have to be the company that does so. C-script isn't the only PostScript interpreter out there; adding the new data types and lightweight processes would not be at all impossible for a good Lisp programmer; since all of NeWS's extra primitives are quite low level, the basic technology is quite accessible to anyone who wants to compete. It's certainly of similar scale to stuff GNU is sponsoring... > Even as a free product > it will be an uphill battle since the marketing war is already lost. (I don't like the war metaphor, but...) battles can turn, too. I wouldn't call this one over unless Sun actually gives up, but it seems that the rumors to that effect were somewhat exaggerated. We'll all get to find out, though... :-). -- Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view." --Obi-Wan Kenobi in "Return of the Jedi"
dwf@HOPE.ACL.LANL.GOV (David W. Forslund) (03/13/90)
I don't buy the idea by itself tht NeWS would be a success if Sun had given it away because a lot of people would work on it. William Leler of Cogent Research offered a free version of NeWS called PIX a couple of years ago if some people would volunteer to enhance the graphics performance. No one stepped forward, so we still have no free NeWS. Dave Forslund Los Alamos
don@CS.UMD.EDU (Don Hopkins) (03/13/90)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 90 08:46:35 -0500 From: dwf@hope.ACL.LANL.GOV (David W. Forslund) I don't buy the idea by itself tht NeWS would be a success if Sun had given it away because a lot of people would work on it. William Leler of Cogent Research offered a free version of NeWS called PIX a couple of years ago if some people would volunteer to enhance the graphics performance. No one stepped forward, so we still have no free NeWS. Dave Forslund Los Alamos As I understand it, PIX used the graphics library in NeWS 1.1 (cscript), but that could not be given away with PIX. If the NeWS 1.1 source code had been freely redistributable then there would have been no need for someone to volunteer to write a PostScript graphics library to go with PIX. PIX plus cscript or some other compatible graphics library (like shapes in xnews) would be a nice workable window system. The PIX PostScript interpreter has some enhancements over the NeWS PostScript interpreter, but the hardest part of NeWS to implement is the graphics library, not the interpreter. -Don