GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET (fclim) (06/29/89)
>From: conliffe%caen.engin.umich.edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Drryl C. > Conliffe) >Organization: U of M Engineering, Ann Arbor, Mich. >Message-Id: <441bc082.b11a@falcon.engin.umich.edu> >References: <8906281243.AA02709@umix.cc.umich.edu> > >I agree, Scott, that some of the things an Apollo workstation brings >to a user are better than "standard stuff". For example, I snicker >at the "I don't have time to learn the DM editor" comments; >it's so darn intuitive that I wonder what could be easier than >hitting the LINE DEL key to delete the line, typing characters >in input mode where you place the cursor, or overstriking by hitting >SHIFT-INS and having a visual marker of the input mode? SHIFT-INS isn't intuitive -- I didn't know about it until now. I like vi because ya don't have to move too much. >Or, have you ever seen someone introduced to an Apollo by someone >who knows only vi read a file? He vi's it. I love the look >on that users face when I point to the file name on a pad and open >it. How about someone who knows only Aegis and have never seen other Unix boxes? He'll look everywhere for that @#$%&*))( EDIT key when he comes upon a Sun. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= fclim -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 Darryl -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= fclim --- gbopoly1 % nusvm.bitnet @ cunyvm.cuny.edu computer centre singapore polytechnic dover road singapore 0513.
conliffe@caen.engin.umich.edu (Darryl C. Conliffe) (06/30/89)
In article <8906290941.AA13520@umix.cc.umich.edu>, GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET (fclim) writes: > >From: conliffe%caen.engin.umich.edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Drryl C. > > Conliffe) > >Organization: U of M Engineering, Ann Arbor, Mich. > >Message-Id: <441bc082.b11a@falcon.engin.umich.edu> > >References: <8906281243.AA02709@umix.cc.umich.edu> > > > >I agree, Scott, that some of the things an Apollo workstation brings > >to a user are better than "standard stuff". For example, I snicker > >at the "I don't have time to learn the DM editor" comments; > >it's so darn intuitive that I wonder what could be easier than > >hitting the LINE DEL key to delete the line, typing characters > >in input mode where you place the cursor, or overstriking by hitting > >SHIFT-INS and having a visual marker of the input mode? > > SHIFT-INS isn't intuitive -- I didn't know about it until now. > I like vi because ya don't have to move too much. > You are right. SHIFT-INS in itself is not intuitive. The concept of toggling INSERT and OVERSTRIKE mode is, and I look for INS on a keyboard to make use of it. INS is above MARK on the key, and I know enough about the Apollo to know that to toggle INS, I hit SHIFT-INS. I also hit INS on a PC when I am looking for that toggling feature, and usually find it operative. BTW, if you are just finding out about it, who taught you about the systems basics? They should have made that simple point evident. Sounds like a case of poor technology transfer. (I am *NOT* implying that it was your fault. Someone, maybe Apollo, dropped the ball.) > >Or, have you ever seen someone introduced to an Apollo by someone > >who knows only vi read a file? He vi's it. I love the look > >on that users face when I point to the file name on a pad and open > >it. > > How about someone who knows only Aegis and have never seen other Unix > boxes? He'll look everywhere for that @#$%&*))( EDIT key when he comes > upon a Sun. > And if he goes to an IBM-PC he'll have the same challenge to *LEARN* how to best use the machine. Computers and workstations are nice, but one still has to know *SOMETHING* to be able to make the most effective use of 'em. I've worked in situations where I was working on a PC, an Apollo, and a DG machine at various times during the same day. While sometimes confusing, their differences never were *INGHIBITIN*, just annoying at times. Besides, you avoid the problem by staying on the Apollo which *DOES* have the EDIT key! :=) (In fact, I often moved files to the Apollo workstation to make use of DM. I have never moved anything for the priviledge of getting to vi!) > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > fclim -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 > Darryl -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Ok on the score. Perhaps it is even because each person has his/her own taste. What Scott and I are trying to say is that we'd like to preserve our own. (At least, that's what *I* was thinking ... sorry if that doesn't cover you, Scott! :=) -- ___________________ Darryl C. Conliffe conliffe@caen.engin.umich.edu (313) 721-6069 -------------------
conliffe@caen.engin.umich.edu (Darryl C. Conliffe) (06/30/89)
This is not intended as a flame. It is intended as an offering of a view of Apollo (the workstation, not the company division). In article <8906300424.AA03855@umix.cc.umich.edu>, GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET (fclim) writes: > This may seem like correspondence between Darryl and myself. I've decided > to send this to this list because I support putting '' back. > > In article <441fd6ee.b11a@falcon.engin.umich.edu>, conliffe%caen.engin.umich > .edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Darryl C. Conliffe) writes > > > In article <8906290941.AA13520@umix.cc.umich.edu>, GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET > > (fclim) writes: > > > >From: conliffe%caen.engin.umich.edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu > > > > (Darryl C. Conliffe) [ Deleted 25 lines. Summary: I believe INS is a natural and fclim does not agree.] > > BTW, if you are just finding out about it, who taught you about the > > systems basics? They should have made that simple point evident. Sounds > > like a case of poor technology transfer. (I am *NOT* implying that it > > was your fault. Someone, maybe Apollo, dropped the ball.) > > Nobody introduced me to Apollo. I just walked in, applied for an account > and use Domain/IX straight off. What I know about Aegis, I picked up by > reading the manuals and thro comp.sys.apollo. I don't read manuals from > page 1 to the last page; but flip to the pages whenever I have to. > I end up transferred to the Computer Centre and made sys_admin. In this > capacity, I need to know about Aegis 'cos there are Aegis users besides > Domain/IX users. My condolences on being lowered (er, raised?) to sys_admin without benefit of training. I do not envy you. It might have helped to view the system as a unique implementation of a computer system with some similarities to other existing systems. Then you might have expected unique attributes, and maybe even grown fond of 'em. I left the comments in about M3 to recreate the context. We have a misunderstanding here. See NO NO NO below for explanation. > > > >Or, have you ever seen someone introduced to an Apollo by someone > > > >who knows only vi read a file? He vi's it. I love the look > > > >on that users face when I point to the file name on a pad and open > > > >it. > > > > > > How about someone who knows only Aegis and have never seen other Unix > > > boxes? He'll look everywhere for that @#$%&*))( EDIT key when he comes > > > upon a Sun. > > > > > And if he goes to an IBM-PC he'll have the same challenge to *LEARN* > > how to best use the machine. Computers and workstations are nice, > > but one still has to know *SOMETHING* to be able to make the > > most effective use of 'em. I've worked in situations where I > > was working on a PC, an Apollo, and a DG machine at various > > times during the same day. While sometimes confusing, their differences > > never were *INGHIBITIN*, just annoying at times. Oops! My ex editor tricked me! I thought I caught this error and fixed it (no G), but look at what ex got me! (Just kidding, I didn't see the first IN search pattern :=) > > > > Besides, you avoid the problem by staying on the Apollo which *DOES* > > have the EDIT key! :=) (In fact, I often moved files to the Apollo > > workstation to make use of DM. I have never moved anything for > > the priviledge of getting to vi!) > > I brought up the point about finding the EDIT key on a SUN because I find > your argument to be flawed. A guy just introduced to any new machine isn't > going to know the best way to use the machine right off. If he's keen, > he'll learn more about it and gradually master it. This points out why we differ. You seem to endorse acquiring system skills by experience as a desireable methodology. I believe training is very important. I believe that with a small investment in training, an Apollo user will be better at using an Apollo than new users of most other platforms. Without training, a user new to a system will do better on the system if it looks like the last system he was operating. That is my guess. The upshot is how a system should be evaluated, and what scenario (experience in other machines, or experience plus training) is reasonable. For the size of the investment, training seems advisable. > I have seen users (ie users new to Apollo but not to Unix) using more, cat > or vi to view a file instead of m3 (the mouse's right button). But after I > told them about m3, they started to use m3. They are *not* dumb; they just > don't know such a beast (m3) exists. (Darryl, that's how I interpreted your > view of such users -- they are dumb not to use m3). NO NO NO. You missed my point there. Ignorance is not stupidity. The point was that proper training is essential to full appreciate any system and to make the most productive use of that system. > What I wanted to say is that vi is not that user-unfriendly as it is hyped > to be. There are some shortcomings (like not knowing when it's in command or > input mode); but once you have the hang of it, it's not that difficult to use. > Its choice of characters for commands is more mnemonic than EDIT's choice. > Using <CNTRL-u> for \search\; F6 for a delete-word command; etc isn't what > I consider to be mnemonic; I keep referring to HELP DM COMMANDS to figure > out the fastest way to delete a word. :=) I assume you mean you hit SHIFT-HELP and then type dm/keys of the command line to get an independent pad on the screen showing the key definitions. Each time I use vi, I swear I'm going to create a file holding the definitions of the commands so they will be available, too. > Of course, if I use the DM editor enuff times, these commands are going > get burned into my brain. This fact also applied to vi. If you have > perseverance to go beyond the first couple of lessons on vi, you'll going > to find that it's an ok editor to use. I grant you the learning curve > is steeper for vi, but it don't take an Einstein to learn and use vi. Agreed. I appreciate the presence of DM *AND* vi. You cannot get that anyplace else but in an Apollo. [ score card and comments deleted ] > I am sorry for giving you the impression that I am keeping tabs on scores. > Maybe I should have added one more line saying that all non-Apollo users > are winners. What I am trying to say is that we are flaming each other > instead of helping. Flamers are in a no-win situation. All this flamage > started on some bad decision by Apollo. I agreed with you and Scott -- they > should have left '\' untouched. I do not consider this exchange of views an exchange of flames. I believe you have valid points. Flames are usually just noise, complaints without merit nor insight. > Apollo should make the system flexible for everyone to customize their > environments to individual tastes. Remember the flames I send over about > DM "shut" and "ex" and the ability for sys_admins to break into a GPR_$borrow > mode? Furthermore, Domain/IX users (at least at SR9.7) are unable to use > stty to set the kill and werase characters (BSD only) and -echo on a Domain > input pad. These deficiencies are among what I consider INHIBITING. > Do we agree, therefore, that Apollo's advantages should be preserved while allowing an even greater amount of customization? I think so. I am not as sure that I agree with your desire for the machines to be something else other than what they are purported to be. However, I am sure we agree that all features offered should work they way they are documented! Right?
GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET (fclim) (06/30/89)
This may seem like correspondence between Darryl and myself. I've decided to send this to this list because I support putting '' back. In article <441fd6ee.b11a@falcon.engin.umich.edu>, conliffe%caen.engin.umich .edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Darryl C. Conliffe) writes > In article <8906290941.AA13520@umix.cc.umich.edu>, GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET > (fclim) writes: > > >From: conliffe%caen.engin.umich.edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu > > > (Darryl C. Conliffe) > > >Organization: U of M Engineering, Ann Arbor, Mich. > > >Message-Id: <441bc082.b11a@falcon.engin.umich.edu> > > >References: <8906281243.AA02709@umix.cc.umich.edu> > > > > > >I agree, Scott, that some of the things an Apollo workstation brings > > >to a user are better than "standard stuff". For example, I snicker > > >at the "I don't have time to learn the DM editor" comments; > > >it's so darn intuitive that I wonder what could be easier than > > >hitting the LINE DEL key to delete the line, typing characters > > >in input mode where you place the cursor, or overstriking by hitting > > >SHIFT-INS and having a visual marker of the input mode? > > > > SHIFT-INS isn't intuitive -- I didn't know about it until now. > > I like vi because ya don't have to move too much. > > > You are right. SHIFT-INS in itself is not intuitive. The concept of > toggling > INSERT and OVERSTRIKE mode is, and I look for INS on a keyboard to make > use of it. INS is above MARK on the key, and I know enough about the > Apollo to know that to toggle INS, I hit SHIFT-INS. I also hit INS on a PC > when I am looking for that toggling feature, and usually find it operative. The default mode on a PC is OVERSTRIKE (Norton Editor notwithstanding); whereas it is INSERT on an Apollo. So INS sounds like the right choice of wording on a PC. But it's counter-intuitive on Apollo. > BTW, if you are just finding out about it, who taught you about the > systems basics? They should have made that simple point evident. Sounds > like a case of poor technology transfer. (I am *NOT* implying that it > was your fault. Someone, maybe Apollo, dropped the ball.) Nobody introduced me to Apollo. I just walked in, applied for an account and use Domain/IX straight off. What I know about Aegis, I picked up by reading the manuals and thro comp.sys.apollo. I don't read manuals from page 1 to the last page; but flip to the pages whenever I have to. I end up transferred to the Computer Centre and made sys_admin. In this capacity, I need to know about Aegis 'cos there are Aegis users besides Domain/IX users. > > >Or, have you ever seen someone introduced to an Apollo by someone > > >who knows only vi read a file? He vi's it. I love the look > > >on that users face when I point to the file name on a pad and open > > >it. > > > > How about someone who knows only Aegis and have never seen other Unix > > boxes? He'll look everywhere for that @#$%&*))( EDIT key when he comes > > upon a Sun. > > > And if he goes to an IBM-PC he'll have the same challenge to *LEARN* > how to best use the machine. Computers and workstations are nice, > but one still has to know *SOMETHING* to be able to make the > most effective use of 'em. I've worked in situations where I > was working on a PC, an Apollo, and a DG machine at various > times during the same day. While sometimes confusing, their differences > never were *INGHIBITIN*, just annoying at times. > > Besides, you avoid the problem by staying on the Apollo which *DOES* > have the EDIT key! :=) (In fact, I often moved files to the Apollo > workstation to make use of DM. I have never moved anything for > the priviledge of getting to vi!) I brought up the point about finding the EDIT key on a SUN because I find your argument to be flawed. A guy just introduced to any new machine isn't going to know the best way to use the machine right off. If he's keen, he'll learn more about it and gradually master it. I have seen users (ie users new to Apollo but not to Unix) using more, cat or vi to view a file instead of m3 (the mouse's right button). But after I told them about m3, they started to use m3. They are *not* dumb; they just don't know such a beast (m3) exists. (Darryl, that's how I interpreted your view of such users -- they are dumb not to use m3). What I wanted to say is that vi is not that user-unfriendly as it is hyped to be. There are some shortcomings (like not knowing when it's in command or input mode); but once you have the hang of it, it's not that difficult to use. Its choice of characters for commands is more mnemonic than EDIT's choice. Using <CNTRL-u> for \search\; F6 for a delete-word command; etc isn't what I consider to be mnemonic; I keep referring to HELP DM COMMANDS to figure out the fastest way to delete a word. Of course, if I use the DM editor enuff times, these commands are going get burned into my brain. This fact also applied to vi. If you have perseverance to go beyond the first couple of lessons on vi, you'll going to find that it's an ok editor to use. I grant you the learning curve is steeper for vi, but it don't take an Einstein to learn and use vi. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > fclim -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 > > Darryl -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > > Ok on the score. Perhaps it is even because each person > has his/her own taste. What Scott and I are trying to say > is that we'd like to preserve our own. (At least, that's what > *I* was thinking ... sorry if that doesn't cover you, Scott! :=) I am sorry for giving you the impression that I am keeping tabs on scores. Maybe I should have added one more line saying that all non-Apollo users are winners. What I am trying to say is that we are flaming each other instead of helping. Flamers are in a no-win situation. All this flamage started on some bad decision by Apollo. I agreed with you and Scott -- they should have left '\' untouched. Apollo should make the system flexible for everyone to customize their environments to individual tastes. Remember the flames I send over about DM "shut" and "ex" and the ability for sys_admins to break into a GPR_$borrow mode? Furthermore, Domain/IX users (at least at SR9.7) are unable to use stty to set the kill and werase characters (BSD only) and -echo on a Domain input pad. These deficiencies are among what I consider INHIBITING. fclim --- gbopoly1 % nusvm.bitnet @ cunyvm.cuny.edu computer centre singapore polytechnic dover road singapore 0513.