chew@HWCAE.CFSAT.HONEYWELL.COM (Mike Chew) (12/12/90)
Mentor Graphics has announced that they will not support V8.0 on the DN10000 ! Mentor's rationalization is tied to HP's RISC workstation strategy. Let me first explain our case (I hope someone at Mentor sees this). We just installed an Idea Station DN10020 five months ago and Mentor is telling us it's obsolete with release 8.0 ! Since V8.0 ships in Q1 1991, this is a lifespan of 7 months for this hardware ! The DN10000 was first supported by Mentor with the current V7.0 release. The obsolescense of the DN10K with V8.0 signifies that it's the first Apollo workstation that only works with only ONE version of their application; a first for Mentor ! My biggest hangup is that Mentor actually PROMOTED the DN10K earlier this year with the "DN10000 Performance Advantage" program. It was a promotion that offered sharp discounts on their inflated prices with a "hurry-up-and-buy" time limit. Now here's the tie-in to HP: At the time I realized that a 2nd generation Apollo-PRISM (and HP-PA) was in the works for '91 but I expected the PRISM to be supported by this major EDA vendor. Also, there were re-assuring signals from HP/Apollo: The Feb. 1990 issue of Workstation magazine (p.15) inferred from Bob Weinberger, manager of systems product marketing for HP's Workstation Group, that: "...HP will not force Apollo customers to move to the new RISC machines." and "...the Apollo Divison does not expect to encounter any major problems in porting the Domain/OS environment to the new HPPA workstations." But recent developments reversed that decision: thompson@ELROND.SSEC.HONEYWELL.COM (John Thompson) writes: John Thompson <thompson@elrond.ssec.honeywell.com> Thu, 29 Nov 90 13:48:15 -0600 article <9011291948.AA06247@pan.ssec.honeywell.com> > >The December, 1990 _Workstation_ magazine has an article on OSF, >the new RISC boxes, the future of Domain/OS, and other miscellaneous >news sprinkled within. In it (along with the _BAD_ news about OSF only [...] >The current plan has several modifications, besides corrections of >timeframe (I don't know about everyone else, but in my opinion, there's >"lies, damn-lies, benchmarks, and release-dates," in that order). >Again, basically, they dropped Domain/OS from the 2nd generation HPPA > ======= ========= ==== === === ========== >machine, dropped OSF from the DN10000 (this is one of the things they >reversed, I think?), changed a "definite" recompile-and-run from the >DN10000 -> 3rd generation RISC into a "maybe" recompile-and-run, and >dropped Domain/OS from the 3rd generation RISC platform. >======= ========= ==== === === ========== Now Mentor rationalizes that V8.0 won't run on the DN10K because of the following (from a memo we received from Mentor): "We have just reviewed HP's future workstation direction as they relate to Mentor Graphics existing and future HP product offerings. One of the findings was that by mid-'91 it would be evident that the DN10K did not have a viable future. As a result, Mentor Graphics has made the decision not to support the DN10000 with V8.0" "Some of the factors that influenced this decision include HP's future RISC workstation strategy which is based on their PA-RISC architecture instead of PRISM. HP also does not plan to port OSF to the DN10K, although they will offer it on other workstations in 1991. OSF is HP's and Mentor Graphics' strategic Direction in operating systems. In addition, the earliest that Mentor Graphics would have been able to make v8.0 available on the DN10K was 2nd half '91, at which point in time we believe the limited life of the DN10K would have become evident to customers." Then it goes on to say that they will support the 2nd-generation DN10K and is working on a DN10K trade-in program. Support of the 2nd-generation DN10K was expected because in their July 1989 "Vision" magazine (p5): "...Mentor Graphics will also support planned enhancements to the Apollo Series 10000 family" so they've committed to it. The trade-in program remains to be seen. Lets take a look at Mentor's reasonings: >>Rationalization (1): >> HP also does not plan to port OSF to the DN10K ... >> ..OSF is HP's and Mentor Graphics' strategic Direction in OS .... OSF also won't run on any machines below a DN5500 (thanks HP), following Mentor's logic to conclusion, then V8.0 will also not run on the following: DN3000 (V8.0 documentation OKs it for occasional Neted use) DN3500 DN3550 DN4000 DN4500 Yet, Mentor plans to support these machines at V8.0 ! At V8.0 Mentor plans to support the SUN workstation. But who plans to port OSF to the SUN ??!! Obviousy OSF is not a decisive factor. Could it be they really meant OSF/Motif ? No, because OSF/Motif runs on the DN10000 ! >>Rationalization (2): >> ..by mid-'91 it would be evident that the DN10K did not have a viable >> future... (2nd generation HPPA released) >> ..HP's future RISC workstation strategy .. based on their PA-RISC instead >> of PRISM ... But the 2nd generation HP-PA only runs OSF/1 or HP-UX ! No Domain/OS (thanks again HP)! OSF/1 can't possibly be stable enough for a production environment by mid. 1991 ! (I sure wouldn't want to rely on it). V8.0 running OSF/2 is a better bet. Furthermore, what site will place an HPPA running OSF/1 in a network of Domain/OS ? They won't even interoperate in the network until SR11 + DCE !!. This leaves HP-UX. Does this mean V8.0 will run on HP-UX ?!! Hard to believe. Or could it be that Mentor has chosen the SUN Sparc as it's future RISC and blown off HP/Apollo RISC ? HP, see what you've done by not supporting Domain/OS on the HPPA ? I hate to say it, but if we're still with Mentor next year, we'll follow them to the SUN SPARC camp for performance reasons. Okay Mentor, if you've decided to favor SPARC, how does that resolve with Rationalization (1) ? I think Mentor will have to support HP-PA one way or another, otherwise they won't be able to run V8.0 on any RISC machine. The SPARC port will be slightly delayed anyway so that's not an immediate solution for the Domain/OS sites. But I'll bet their priority will put SPARC ahead of HP-PA. In summary, if I can give a message to Mentor and HP: Mentor: Your decision not to support V8.0 on the DN10K is premature. There are too many unknowns ! HP: Your decision to not port Domain/OS to the HP-PA is causing turmoil ! Mike J. Chew Honeywell -- Air Transport Systems Division Phone: 602.436.1311 P.O. Box 21111 M/S P26D3 Phoenix AZ 85036 FAX: 602.436.2252 Internet: @cim-vax.honeywell.com:chew@hwcae.cfsat.honeywell.com UUCP: ...!uunet!asuvax!apciphx!hwcae!chew
nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) (12/12/90)
In article <9012112042.AA10927@hwcae.cfsat.honeywell.com> chew@HWCAE.CFSAT.HONEYWELL.COM (Mike Chew) writes: >Mentor: Your decision not to support V8.0 on the DN10K is premature. There > are too many unknowns ! > >HP: Your decision to not port Domain/OS to the HP-PA is causing turmoil ! I saw a blurb in either Unix Today or UnixWorld that mentioned that while many workstation users were going multivendor, they still tended to have strong loyalties to their primary vendor. The one exception was HP, where more than 50% of the customers surveyed said that if they had the chance to make the decision again they would go with someone else. There's a message there somewhere. -- Alphalpha Software, Inc. | motif-request@alphalpha.com nazgul@alphalpha.com |----------------------------------- 617/646-7703 (voice/fax) | Proline BBS: 617/641-3722 I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate everyone else's.
burdick@hpspdra.HP.COM (Matt Burdick) (12/15/90)
> I saw a blurb in either Unix Today or UnixWorld that mentioned that > while many workstation users were going multivendor, they still tended > to have strong loyalties to their primary vendor. The one exception was > HP, where more than 50% of the customers surveyed said that if they > had the chance to make the decision again they would go with someone > else. I don't remember seeing this - could you be a bit more specific where I could find it? -matt -- Matt Burdick | Hewlett-Packard burdick@hpspd.spd.hp.com | Intelligent Networks Operation
nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) (12/16/90)
In article <13730009@hpspdra.HP.COM> burdick@hpspdra.HP.COM (Matt Burdick) writes: >> I saw a blurb in either Unix Today or UnixWorld that mentioned that >> while many workstation users were going multivendor, they still tended >> to have strong loyalties to their primary vendor. The one exception was >> HP, where more than 50% of the customers surveyed said that if they >> had the chance to make the decision again they would go with someone >> else. > >I don't remember seeing this - could you be a bit more specific where >I could find it? Unix Today, Dec 10 Issue. Page 10, last paragraph of an article entitled "Workstation Spending Cut, Report Says". -- Alphalpha Software, Inc. | motif-request@alphalpha.com nazgul@alphalpha.com |----------------------------------- 617/646-7703 (voice/fax) | Proline BBS: 617/641-3722 I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate everyone else's.