rand@HWCAE.CFSAT.HONEYWELL.COM (03/22/91)
** ARRGGHH ** I just loaded up PSK Q2 (why is it called PSK Q2?) and I found 3 executables in /usr/X11/bin: dmtox mwm x11start Where are the clients? Like xterm and the such. These are required for X11R4 support. Ok, Ok. The release notes says: "This Product Support Kit (PSK Q2-91) provides software support that was not available with SR10.3. It includes software for the X11 R4 server ..." So, all its only the server. So, when do we get the clients. Perhaps I'll load up the ADUS X11R4 tape and recompile the clients from them. *Sigh* -- Douglas Keenan Rand Honeywell -- Air Transport Systems Division Phone: +1 602 436 2814 US Snail: P.O. Box 21111 Phoenix AZ 85036 Internet: @cim-vax.honeywell.com:rand@hwcae.cfsat.honeywell.com -or- rand@ssdc.honeywell.com UUCP: ...!uunet!asuvax!apciphx!hwcae!rand
mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael K. Gschwind) (03/25/91)
In article <9103211806.AA17987@hwcae.cfsat.honeywell.com> rand@HWCAE.CFSAT.HONEYWELL.COM writes: >** ARRGGHH ** > >I just loaded up PSK Q2 (why is it called PSK Q2?) and I found 3 >executables in /usr/X11/bin: > dmtox > mwm > x11start > >Where are the clients? Like xterm and the such. These are required for >X11R4 support. I am still not sure whether HPollo screws its customers on purpose ... Boy, I'm so fed up with Hpollo and (especially) their suits, you can't imagine. Just what good is an X11R4 server if *) you need a US keyboard with ALT keys? - most sites I know have plenty of old keyboards w/o ALT keys! Ok, we are being told that it should work OK with the old keyboards as well, but what guarantees do we have that it works? if it won't work, we'll be told: `look, it's all in the release notes' *) no clients mwm doesn't work for us anyway (4 plane bitmap, too few colors), so its 0 clients. *) no include files so you can't even get the client sources from MIT and compile them yourself! Just how stupid do the suits at HP think Apollo customers are? Are we second class customers because we are not so fond of HP-SUX? I am wondering we people keep buying Apollos (do they sell any more of them?) Here comes the first full POSIX compatible Domain/OS implementation (sr 23.7 ;-) int _every_function(...) { errno = Esomething; return -1; } [ Yes, if you document that a call won't work on your system, and return an error number, you are still POSIX compliant, or so I've been told ...] Rightfully, HP suits could then claim that `this OS works within the specification' (their most favorite answer to APRs), if they document it in the release notes... bye, mike PS: another good APR std answer (especially when it comes to X problems): `get source from MIT/uunet/whatever and compile yourself' - just why are we buying their OS? after all, we `could get the source from UCB ourselves'. Michael K. Gschwind, Dept. of VLSI-Design, Vienna University of Technology mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at 1-2-3-4 kick the lawsuits out the door mike@vlsivie.uucp 5-6-7-8 innovate don't litigate e182202@awituw01.bitnet 9-A-B-C interfaces should be free Voice: (++43).1.58801 8144 D-E-F-O look and feel has got to go! Fax: (++43).1.569697 #include <std_disclaimer.blabla>
kumorek@apollo.HP.COM (James Kumorek) (03/26/91)
In article <9103211806.AA17987@hwcae.cfsat.honeywell.com>, rand@HWCAE.CFSAT.HONEYWELL.COM writes: |> ** ARRGGHH ** |> |> I just loaded up PSK Q2 (why is it called PSK Q2?) and I found 3 |> executables in /usr/X11/bin: |> dmtox |> mwm |> x11start |> |> Where are the clients? Like xterm and the such. These are required for |> X11R4 support. |> |> Ok, Ok. The release notes says: |> "This Product Support Kit (PSK Q2-91) provides software |> support that was not available with SR10.3. It includes |> software for the X11 R4 server ..." |> |> So, all its only the server. So, when do we get the clients. Perhaps |> I'll load up the ADUS X11R4 tape and recompile the clients from them. |> *Sigh* Perhaps I don;t understand your question, but X11R4 is a PSK that is installed on top of SR10.3. SR10.3 has all the X clients that we support (like xterm and such), so you already have those. Am I missing the point? Jim Kumorek Apollo Computer, Inc. - A subsidiary of Hewlett Packard kumorek@apollo.hp.com
mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael K. Gschwind) (03/26/91)
In article <509485af.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> kumorek@apollo.HP.COM (James Kumorek) writes: >Perhaps I don;t understand your question, but X11R4 is a PSK that is installed >on top of SR10.3. SR10.3 has all the X clients that we support (like >xterm and such), >so you already have those. > >Am I missing the point? Yes and no. From what the release notes say, you are completely right. HPollo sells the X11R4 server, no more, no less (well a bit less. no supported old keyboards). From this point of view you are completely right. HPollo never promised anything more. BUT: X11R4 is normally though of as a bit more than just the X server. It consists of lots of clients and much contributed software (which come w/ Solbournes, for example). Now, when I (and it seems like most others on the net) think of X11R4 I don't think of the server, I think of the _whole_ distribution (#include <include files>). It's always a neat idea to say so and so is not supported (the only HPollo supported clients are xterm and uwm, as far as I can remember). This is exactly the point the previous poster seems to have made! Seems like your customers want supported X clients (for R4, not R3, some clients have changed! (see xeyes)) and include files. >Jim Kumorek >Apollo Computer, Inc. - A subsidiary of Hewlett Packard ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Things have most certainly gotten worse since the suits took over!!!! >kumorek@apollo.hp.com bye, mike Michael K. Gschwind, Dept. of VLSI-Design, Vienna University of Technology mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at 1-2-3-4 kick the lawsuits out the door mike@vlsivie.uucp 5-6-7-8 innovate don't litigate e182202@awituw01.bitnet 9-A-B-C interfaces should be free Voice: (++43).1.58801 8144 D-E-F-O look and feel has got to go! Fax: (++43).1.569697 #include <std_disclaimer.blabla>
rees@pisa.citi.umich.edu (Jim Rees) (03/26/91)
In article <2388@tuvie.UUCP>, mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael K. Gschwind) writes:
*) no include files
so you can't even get the client sources from MIT and
compile them yourself!
Sure you can. Get the include files from MIT too.
Think of the psk as a pre-release. It's a way of getting the r4 server into
customer hands before the real release. It may seem a little slow to you,
but there are other vendors out there that also haven't released r4 yet.
I would much rather they ship a server with no clients than the other way
around. I can make clients. I can't make servers.hanche@imf.unit.no (Harald Hanche-Olsen) (03/27/91)
In article <2389@tuvie.UUCP> mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael K. Gschwind) writes: In article <509485af.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> kumorek@apollo.HP.COM (James Kumorek) writes: >Perhaps I don;t understand your question, but X11R4 is a PSK that is installed >on top of SR10.3. SR10.3 has all the X clients that we support (like >xterm and such), >so you already have those. > >Am I missing the point? Yes and no. From what the release notes say, you are completely right. [...] Seems like your customers want supported X clients (for R4, not R3, some clients have changed! (see xeyes)) and include files. More importantly, in my experience an R3 xterm or emacs dies if you try to access their menus on an R4 server. (Specifically, meaning standard Apollo xterm and Emacs 18.55 compiled with standard Apollo libraries and the MIT R4 Xapollo server). - Harald Hanche-Olsen <hanche@imf.unit.no> Division of Mathematical Sciences The Norwegian Institute of Technology N-7034 Trondheim, NORWAY
rand@hwcae.cfsat.honeywell.com (03/27/91)
>>>>> On 25 Mar 91 19:09:00 GMT, kumorek@apollo.hp.com (James Kumorek) said: > Perhaps I don;t understand your question, but X11R4 is a PSK that is installed > on top of SR10.3. SR10.3 has all the X clients that we support (like > xterm and such), so you already have those. Right. I already have the R3 clients, they came with SR10.2 and SR10.3. But I don't have the R4 clients that I was expecting with this PSK. They are different. One visible difference is that the R4 xterm has actions defined for scrolling that can be bound to keys. Just like mterm. There are many other advantages that the R4 clients have. So the only way to get the R4 clients is to get the MIT tape and compile them myself. (As Michael K. Gschwind says: "Just why are we buying their OS?") After talking to a very friendly person at HP/Apollo who helped me get the hot key running with Xdomain I learned that there will be a PSKQ3-91 that will have the R4 clients and the developers stuff too. (Include files and libraries and the such.) So, all we gotta do is wait for the third quarter. Now, I don't mind much that HP/Apollo split up the R4 releases into the server and the rest. I'll deal with the difficulties to get the R4 server quicker. But, it would have been nice if they would have told us what was really going on. -- Douglas Keenan Rand Honeywell -- Air Transport Systems Division Phone: +1 602 436 2814 US Snail: P.O. Box 21111 Phoenix AZ 85036 Internet: @cim-vax.honeywell.com:rand@hwcae.cfsat.honeywell.com -or- rand@ssdc.honeywell.com UUCP: ...!uunet!asuvax!apciphx!hwcae!rand
rees@pisa.citi.umich.edu (Jim Rees) (03/27/91)
In article <509485af.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>, kumorek@apollo.HP.COM (James Kumorek) writes:
Perhaps I don;t understand your question, but X11R4 is a PSK that is installed
on top of SR10.3. SR10.3 has all the X clients that we support (like
xterm and such),
so you already have those.
Am I missing the point?
As far as I can tell, sr10.3 doesn't include any r4 clients or libraries at
all. Did I miss something? Where are they? The clients in /usr/bin/X11
all seem to be r3.craig@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Craig Durland) (03/29/91)
Harald Hanche-Olsen writes: > More importantly, in my experience an R3 xterm or emacs dies if you try > to access their menus on an R4 server. (Specifically, meaning standard > Apollo xterm and Emacs 18.55 compiled with standard Apollo libraries and > the MIT R4 Xapollo server). That is because R3 xterm has a bug in it that MIT checks for in R4. The XGrabPointer call has an invalid mask. To get around this (ie you don't wanna fix the bug in the clients), run the R4 server in "bug compatability" mode: "Xdomain bc". This bug has nothing to do with the libraries or anything else and is very easy to fix or work around. Craig Durland (503) 750-3354 Hewlett-Packard, 1000 NE Circle, Corvallis, OR 97330 craig@cv.hp.com