Info-IBMPC@WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL ("Info-IBMPC Digest") (03/05/91)
Info-IBMPC Digest Fri, 1 Mar 91 Volume 91 : Issue 43
Today's Editor:
Gregory Hicks - Rota Spain <GHICKS@WSMR-Simtel20.Army.Mil>
Today's Topics:
Extended/Expanded - ARG! (6 msgs)
4DOS (was Extended/Expanded - ARG!) (5 msgs)
Windows (was Extended/Expanded - ARG!) (2 msgs)
Today's Queries:
Info on Ethernet Cards Needed
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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 08:57:19 cst
From: "DubJ = Yum (Pollock,David W)" <POLLOCK%GRIN1.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Extended/Expanded - ARG!
My machine says 640K base, 384K extended memory when I boot. I
always seem to run out of memory, especially now that I'm trying to use
a few more drivers. I don't think that I'm using any of the 384
extended, and I was wondering if anyone could give me some hints on how
to use the elusive extended memory. I've been pulling down files from
SIMTEL, but so far nothing has worked especially well. Is there a way
to direct programs to extended memory? Should I get something to
convert to expanded? Which is better? Thanks for any help,
-David
POLLOCK@GRIN1.BITNET
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 10:43:32 CST
From: Charlie Turner <CHARLIE%UMVMA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Extended/Expanded - ARG!
On Thu, 21 Feb 91 08:57:19 cst DubJ = Yum (Pollock,David W) said:
(my summary of this question):
>What can I do to use for programs the 384K of RAM, the memory beyond
>640K, that exists on my 1mb PC?
I know of three 'standard' ways to access that RAM. One is via the
HIMEM.SYS driver. This gives access to the lowest 64k of this RAM. I
believe HIMEM is a Microsoft invention, and is used mostly by their
products.
Another possibility is access via the XMS standard *extended* memory
interface. This requires an XMS driver, and of course application
software that uses it.
The third approach, and most widely used I think, is access via an EMS
standard *expanded* memory interface. Needless to say, this only helps
applications that know about EMS memory.
For 386 based PCs, QEMM and 386Max (BlueMax for PS/2s) are widely used
and highly reguarded EMS, XMS, and Himem memory managers. These cost
$70-$100 I think. IBM's DOS 4.0 includes drivers for EMM. Be sure you
are at the current DOS maintenance level if you use these.
Windows 3.0 is another approach. Rather than scrounging for more RAM to
handle TSR's, etc., you instead open more windows and rely on Win 3's
exploitation of the 386's virtual 8086 machine mode and paged memory
operation. Unfortunately I think this may require at least 1mb of RAM
beyond the base 640Kb to work. Quarterdeck's DesqView multi-tasking
product falls, I think, into this same catagory.
For 286 based PCs QuarterDeck's QRAM provides many of the capabilities
of QEMM. Windows 3.0 might help here too, although I'm unsure of
exactly what Win 3 in its 'standard' mode can do. My experience with
Windows 3.0 has been that 4mb and at least a 20mHz 386 system are
needed for it to really run well, ie. fast enough that I'm willing to
put up with it!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 19:32:02 MEZ
From: Thomas <UNP072%DBNRHRZ1.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Extended/Expanded - ARG!
On Thu, 21 Feb 91 10:43:32 CST Charlie Turner said:
>On Thu, 21 Feb 91 08:57:19 cst DubJ = Yum (Pollock,David W) said:
>(my summary of this question):
>>What can I do to use for programs the 384K of RAM, the memory beyond
>>640K, that exists on my 1mb PC?
>I know of three 'standard' ways to access that RAM. One is via the
>HIMEM.SYS driver. This gives access to the lowest 64k of this RAM.
>I believe HIMEM is a Microsoft invention, and is used mostly by their
>products.
As far as i know, Himem IS an XMS-driver, but not a very powerful one.
>Another possibility is access via the XMS standard *extended* memory
>interface. This requires an XMS driver, and of course application
>software that uses it.
There are several 'standards' of controlling extended memory, and they
are not compatible to each other. This is *one* crucial point.
>The third approach, and most widely used I think, is access via an
>EMS standard *expanded* memory interface. Needless to say, this only
>helps applications that know about EMS memory.
As EMS emulation needs a 64K page frame, so you'll loose 64K of
conventional memory, if you do this. So, you've got to look out, if
gaining 384K EMS is worth this sacrifice. If you own a Chips&Technology
chip set (NEAT), your PC is capable of HARDWARE EMS which is much
faster and doesn't require that 64K page frame in conventional memory,
since it establishes one above your graphics card.
>For 386 based PCs, QEMM and 386Max (BlueMax for PS/2s) are widely used
>and highly reguarded EMS, XMS, and Himem memory managers. These
>cost $70-$100 I think. IBM's DOS 4.0 includes drivers for EMM. Be sure
>you are at the current DOS maintenance level if you use these.
Yes, on a '386, there are lots of more possibilities due to its V86 mode.
But 384K is not that much memory, that a '386-memory-manager could make
a lot of it, since it needs part of it for it's own purposes.
You cannot use extended memory for loading TSR into it. There are two
useful applications for extended memory:
- put a ramdisk into it (ramdrive, vdisk)
- (even better:) use it as buffer for a disk-caching program. There are
two really professional ones on simtel (maybe, there are more, i just
tried these two ones):
<msdos.dskutl>qc420-1.arc / -2.arc
<msdos.dskutl>hydk420.zip (this is the *current* release)
If you are short of memory, ask yourself, if you really *need* all
these fancy TSRs in your memory. You may reduce the size of your
operating system by reducing the number of buffers in your config.sys,
disabling hardware stacks (stacks=0,0) and by changing from command.com
to 4dos.
- Thomas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 22:45:42 +0200
From: Shahar Steiff <cerrlss%TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Extended/Expanded - ARG!
> My machine says 640K base, 384K extended memory when I boot. I always
> seem to run out of memory, especially now that I'm trying to use a few more
> drivers. I don't think that I'm using any of the 384 extended, and I was
> wondering if anyone could give me some hints on how to use the elusive
> extended memory. I've been pulling down files from SIMTEL, but so far
> nothing has worked especially well. Is there a way to direct programs to
> extended memory? Should I get something to convert to expanded? Which is
> better? Thanks for any help,
You can use HIMEM or a like to convert some of the xms to High-RAM to
which you can load device drivers and TSRs. Try VRAM and HRAM from
SIMTEL (in SYSUTL I think...)
You can also emulate ems with software, I once used such an emulator. I
think the file is VRAM40 of some thing alike. Try receiving the list of
files in SYSUTL (with descriptions) and look for the right file.
I have 2MB total memory which I divide as follows :
640K for RAM
64K as XMS - and converted to High RRAM by HIMEM and HRAMDEV
64K as Shadow RAM to speed up performance and maintain 0 wait states.
the rest is EMS 4.0
Most of my TSRs are loaded to High RAM using HRAM.
Try to find out if your 384K can be defined as EMS by hardware
(internal setup, like CTRL+ALT+S) , then you can use the same drivers I
use. If you have Expanded memory only, some of them might not work.
Good luck.
* Shahar Steiff * Dept. of Chem.Eng., Technion IIT, Haifa, ISRAEL *
* Phone:(+)972-4-459536 Fax.(+)972-4-444012 TLX:45182 PALRAM IL *
* E-Mail:cerrlss@techunix.technion.ac.il cetek63@technion.bitnet *
* Snail-Mail: Kibbutz Ramat-Yochanan, 30035, Israel *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 16:45:40 -0500
From: Jun Guo <jguo%CS.NYU.EDU@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Extended/Expanded - ARG!
I don't think DESQview will let you use extended memory to the limit.
Say if you have 8MB of extented memory, DESQview might only give you
700KB for the DESQview windows. (It's limited by the DOS limitation of
1MB).
On the other hand, MS-Windows can use extended memory for MS-Windows.
For DOS applications, it takes 1MB for each of them to run in 386
enhanced mode. So if you have 8MB memory, you can multitask 4-5 DOS
applications.
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 17:09:49 -0500
From: Jun Guo <jguo%CS.NYU.EDU@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: 4DOS (was Extended/Expanded - ARG!)
I tried 4dos a long time ago, and didn't come to the conclusion that it
uses less memory than DOS3.3 command.com. I know if I load 4dos to
HIMEM, I'll use less conventional memory. But I can also load TSR to
HIMEM and if I wanr to use both 4dos and TSR, than choosing 4dos will
give me no gain. (I'm now loading DESQview into High Memory (64K).
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 91 00:30:39 +0200
From: Shahar Steiff <cerrlss%TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: 4DOS (was Extended/Expanded - ARG!)
> I tried 4dos a long time ago, and didn't come to the conclusion that it uses
> less memory than DOS3.3 command.com. I know if I load 4dos to HIMEM, I'll
> use less conventional memory. But I can also load TSR to HIMEM and if I wanr
> to use both 4dos and TSR, than choosing 4dos will give me no gain. (I'm now
> loading DESQview into High Memory (64K).
Wrong !!! 4dos will use less ram when swapped to ems, xms or disk
You can load you TSRs to HIMEM and save even more ram.
* Shahar Steiff * Dept. of Chem.Eng., Technion IIT, Haifa, ISRAEL *
* Phone:(+)972-4-459536 Fax.(+)972-4-444012 TLX:45182 PALRAM IL *
* E-Mail:cerrlss@techunix.technion.ac.il cetek63@technion.bitnet *
* Snail-Mail: Kibbutz Ramat-Yochanan, 30035, Israel *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 90 19:30:14 -0400
From: Jun Guo <jguo%SLEEPY.CS.NYU.EDU@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: 4DOS (was Extended/Expanded - ARG!)
> Wrong !!! 4dos will use less ram when swapped to ems, xms or disk
> You can load you TSRs to HIMEM and save even more ram.
So if I load 4DOS into conventional memory, it will use more memory
than MS-DOS 3.3, right?
The ability of 4DOS being able to be swapped to XMS is attractive. But
I am not quite sure if this will not cause conflict with other
programs. When I tried 4DOS a long time ago, (I didn't know it can be
swapped to XMS at that time), if I loaded 4DOS into HIMEM, then my
PC-TOOLS disk cache can't use XMS. (I know only one program can use
HIMEM, but XMS should be available.)
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 91 15:36:04 IST
From: David de Leeuw <DAVID%BGUVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: 4dos
I follow with much interest the discussion on 4DOS. I tried to run it
too, and failed on 386SX and on AT. The following are details on the
386SX:
386SX (Olivetti M300) with 2Mb memory and the following CONFIG.SYS
files = 20
buffers = 8
stacks = 0,0
country = 972,862,d:\dos\country.sys
device = d:\oliv\oemm386.sys noxram
device = d:\dos\ansi.sys
device = d:\dos\display.sys con=(ega,862,2)
shell = c:\4dos.com /s:e /e:200 /a:512 /p
(oemm386 is the olivetti extended memory manager)
This boots Ok, with the message
4DOS EMS Swapping initialized (80K)
However, I have only about 543 kB left and a database system, which I
could run under DOS won't run anymore under 4Dos.
What am I doing wrong ?
Thanks
David de Leeuw
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 91 15:04:53 MEZ
From: Thomas <UNP072%DBNRHRZ1.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: 4DOS (was Extended/Expanded - ARG!)
On Tue, 26 Feb 91 15:36:04 IST David de Leeuw said:
>I follow with much interest the discussion on 4DOS. I tried to run it
>too, and failed on 386SX and on AT. The following are details on the
>386SX:
>386SX (Olivetti M300) with 2Mb memory and the following CONFIG.SYS
> files = 20
> buffers = 8
> stacks = 0,0
> country = 972,862,d:\dos\country.sys
> device = d:\oliv\oemm386.sys noxram
noxram means 'no xms-ram', i suppose. If you let 4dos swap to xms, it
will use less memory.
> device = d:\dos\ansi.sys
> device = d:\dos\display.sys con=(ega,862,2)
> shell = c:\4dos.com /s:e /e:200 /a:512 /p
(You may leave out the /s switch, usually. 4dos determines best
swapping method itself, usually.
>(oemm386 is the olivetti extended memory manager)
>This boots Ok, with the message
>4DOS EMS Swapping initialized (80K)
>However, I have only about 543 kB left and a database system, which I could
>run under DOS won't run anymore under 4Dos.
Hm. I'm quite surprized. What is in your memory? could you send us a
dump of memmap? How much memory is left, after command.com is loaded?
>What am I doing wrong ?
Hm. Don't know. On my system, i don't use 'country' (but that doesn't
use any memory), 'ansi' (what do you need it for?) nor 'display'.
Maybe, it's in conjunction with one of these?
- Thomas
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 91 10:32:59 EST
From: Alex Nemeth <AN5%CORNELLC@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Windows (was Extended/Expanded - ARG!)
Quick question on Windows,
when running dos based applications are they limited to 640k or will
windows define up to 1mb of conventional ram to be used for dos based a
applications?
My major problem is that after loading the S36 emulation SW I've only
got about 356k or so left, so foxpro gives me a not enough memory error
Alex Nemeth
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Date: Sat, 23 Feb 91 08:20:00 CST
From: "Ronald Hahm @ University of Northern Iowa"
Subject: Re: Windows (was Re: Extended/Expanded - ARG!)
On Fri, 22 Feb 91 10:32:59 EST
Alex Nemeth <AN5%CORNELLC@uga.cc.uga.EDU> asked this question:
> when running dos based applications are they limited to 640k or will
> windows define up to 1mb of conventional ram to be used for dos based a
> applications?
> My major problem is that after loading the S36 emulation SW I've only
> got about 356k or so left, so foxpro gives me a not enough memory error
There is a selection in your PIF editor called advanced options. In
the advanced options dialog box there is a section that lets you
allocate EMS and XMS memory. You can play with this option to see if
you get better results.
| Ronald Hahm Internet: HAHM5247@ISCSVAX.UNI.EDU |
| Graduate Assistant |
| College of Business Administration |
| University of Northern Iowa BBS InterLink: RONALD HAHM |
| Cedar Falls, Iowa 50613 USWest: 319-273-3822 |
------------------------------
Date: 18 Feb 91 00:40:03 GMT
From: jrd@cc.usu.edu
Subject: Re: Comms (Kermit) under DESQview
Forwarded-by: w8sdz@rigel.acs.oakland.edu (Keith Petersen)
Comms under DESQview: one of many problems when configuring DV. Below
is a hints file for running MS-DOS Kermit under DV. The development
Kermit v3.02 (which will be the release Kermit v3.10) does cpu slice
releases to speedup multitasking. Joe D.
Assistance in creating a DESQview .DVP configuration file for MS-DOS Kermit.
My copy of DESQview is version 2.26 running on a 386 machine with
2MB, with no expanded memory, but with QEMM/386. The display adapter is
a Video-7 "VGA". The tables below are similar to the DESQview screens.
Please, when configuring QEMM to load-high drivers etc always exclude
video memory.
I have been able to run two copies of MS-DOS Kermit v3.02 together,
to different destinations with different communications ports. In
addition, full graphics capability was retained. Joe D.
==== Change a Program
Program Name............: MS-DOS Kermit v3.02
Keys to Use on Open Menu: KE Memory Size (in K): 200
(say 150 minimum)
Program...: Kermit.exe
Parameters: (Kermit command line items, if any, go here.)
Directory.: C:\yourdir
Options:
Writes text directly to screen.......: [N] *
Displays graphics information........: [N] **
Virtualize text/graphics (Y,N,T).....: [T] ***
Uses serial ports (Y,N,1,2)..........: [Y]
Requires floppy diskette.............: [N]
* Not true, but MS-DOS Kermit is DESQview-aware and covers up nicely.
** Not true, naturally, but causes DESQview to put Kermit into full
screen mode while graphics are executed and then to return to windowed
mode after switching to text terminal emulation.
*** Can be [Y] with the same effect as above.
==== Change a Program Advanced Options
System Memory (in K).....: 0 Maximum Program Memory Size (in K)..:
Script Buffer Size.......: 0 Maximum Expanded Memory Size (in K) :
Text Pages: 1 Graphics pages: 0 Initial Mode: 3 Interrupts: 00 to FF
Window Position:
Maximum Height: 25 Starting Height: 20 Starting Row...: 5
Maximum Width.: 80 Starting Width.: 40 Starting Column: 5
(Choose your own window sizes, naturally. 132 column mode causes DESQview
to switch to full screen.)
==== Shared Program
Pathname..:
Data......:
Close on exit (Y,N,blank)......: [ ] Uses its own colors..............: [N]
Allow Close Window command.....: [Y] Runs in background (Y,N,blank)...: [Y]
Uses math coprocessor..........: [N] Keyboard conflict (0-F)..........: [0]
Share CPU when foreground......: [Y] Share EGA when foreground/zoomed.: [Y]
Can be swapped out (Y,N,blank).: [ ] Protection level (0-3)...........: [3]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 91 16:13:25 EST
From: P_SECINARO%UNHH.UNH.EDU@uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Info on Ethernet Cards Needed
I have a question regarding Ethernet interface cards. Can anyone
give me suggestions as to which of the many available cards they feel
is best? I'm interested in 16-bit ISA cards that have ThinNet
transceivers built in. Cards should be both "blue book" Ethernet V2.0
and IEEE 802.3 compliant, if that's possible. Right now I'm seriously
considering going with the Novell NE2000 mainly due to the price and
availability of packet drivers. We are not considering using Netware
- way too expensive - so is it safe to assume this card can be used
with other software? I have seen some public domain packet drivers
that look pretty good. I've heard that the Western Digital Ethercard+
is also very good, but it seems to cost more. My primary application
will be to hook up 5-6 PC's in a fairly low-traffic environment,
involving remote backup, file sharing, and printer sharing.
I'd really appreciate thoughts, opinions, and suggestions on this.
I'd also be grateful if anyone could point me to recent magazine
reviews, etc, on this topic. I really don't know much about any of the
cards I've mentioned, so if someone could send technical specs, like
buffer size, relative speed, etc. on the NE2000 and other cards, that
would also be very helpful. I know they all pretty much use the same
chip, the Nat. Semi. DP8930C Network Interface Controller (the databook
for which I have) but that's about the extent of my knowledge. Thanks
in advance for any help. Paul Secinaro P_SECINARO@UNHH.UNH.EDU
University of New Hampshire Department of Electrical and Computer
Engineering Synthetic Vision and Pattern Analysis Laboratory
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End of Info-IBMPC Digest V91 #43
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