daemon@uwmcsd1.UUCP (The devil himself) (01/01/88)
Sender
Followup-To: The Useless Prattering Concerning Christmas Celebrations
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
Keywords: Ignorance of History, Pagan Festivals, Freedom of Religion
From: markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins)
Path: csd4.milw.wisc.edu!markh
This silly debate about Christmas is not only stupid, but unnecessary. Simply
put, both sides are wrong as they argue from the same false premise (irony of
all ! that they should both agree on what makes them wrong).
Christmas may SEEM like a Christian holiday, but it is not. Nor was it
originally. The church stole (or borrowed) it around 8 or 9 hundred years
after Christ.
Every European culture has had a celebration at this time of year. When
you live at 50 degrees latitude, you have reason to celebrate the turning of the
the 21st.
In order to convert the pagans of Europe, the Church found it necessary to
schedule the commemoration of Christ's birth and death so as to coincide with
Winter and Spring Fests, else the pagans would've never converted as they would
have never sat still for the removal of their cherished holidays. The fact is
that Christ was born sometime around July.
In fact, because of its pagan origins, Christmas was BANNED in England
during the time of Puritan rule. For similar reasons, Christmas wasn't even
recognized as a holiday in this country until the late 1830's. To put it
simply, fundamentalists true to their ideology would ban Christmas!
You need not be Christan to celebrate this holiday. Christmas imposes
no religion on anyone, EXCEPT when people rant and rave about the so-called
true meaning of Christmas. The True "True Meaning" of Christmas is to
celebrate the turning of the seasons. As for what the Church does with its
holidays, render onto Christ those things that are Christ's, no one else is
compelled to pay tribute. In any case, you needn't be Christian to respect
what Christ represents. Even the Jews recognize Christ, though only as the
prophet named Yshua.
In America, we observe freedom of religious practice (insofar as such
practice is consistent with what we believe to be Universal Human Rights).
There are two ways to consider that freedom: restrictively or liberally.
Restrictivelly means we restrict all religious practice from the public
domain. This will, however, lead to the loss of spirituality amongst the
people as a whole. Liberally means that we allow all religious practices
in the public domain. If this means that every day is to become a holiday
for some religion, then so be it... all the better for those who enjoy living.
The wisdom inherent in this freedom was to encourage the expression of religion
without imposing the beliefs of anyone onto anyone else. What it allows for is
an intermixing from which the best of all possible worlds can be taken. This
process has always been what gave America its strength throughout its heritage
of several thousand years of intermixing of peoples from all parts of the old
world (and no, nobody ever "discovered" America, but that's another story...)matt@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (Not the kind you have to wind up on Sunday) (01/03/88)
markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
) Christmas may SEEM like a Christian holiday, but it is not. Nor was it
) originally. The church stole (or borrowed) it around 8 or 9 hundred years
) after Christ.
Wrong! The church stole the DATE and hung their brand of holiday on
it to crowd out the other brands and gain market share. They did not
go so far as to infringe on a trademark as that would have diminished
the name-recognition factor of the parent corporation.
Whether the superficial similarity in packaging is due to persistant
loyalty to the old brand or to clever strategy by the new is probably
impossible to determine at this time.
Mattmatt@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (D 1 4 U 2 C) (01/04/88)
Mark William Hopkins (who did something totally idiotic to the
headers on his article) writes:
) Wrong, fool! The Church grafted their commemoration of Christ's
) birthday onto an already pre-existing holiday. Since a HOLIDAY
) consists of a time of celebration, and a ritual (and a purpose) it
) was the HOLIDAY that the Church took and not just the DATE ...
Good going pea-brain. You think the church kept the original ritual
and purpose, as well as the time? I can hardly believe that anyone
could be so dense. But it's obvious that I'm not overestimating your
stupidity, because you quite clearly repeat yourself in the next
paragraph:
) Christmas is not an EXCLUSIVELY Christan Holiday, nor was it
) ever. Even the Romans celebrated with a feast and gift-giving at
) this time of year, before Christ. The Germanic peoples celebrated
) at this time of year before their conversion. It's THEIR holiday
) that we inherited, just as Halloween was inherited directly from
) the Celtic pagan ritual.
And all those Romans and Huns and Teutons and Goths called their
celebration "Christmas"? No, I'm sure that not even you believe
that, Mark. If Easter took a wrong turn one year and fell on
Mother's day, would they be the same holiday? No, they'd be two
holidays on the same day. If I am born on July 4th, does the whole
country celebrate my birthday? No, you dolt, they celebrate
something else.chris@geac.UUCP (Chris Syed) (01/04/88)
> > If Easter took a wrong turn one year and fell on > Mother's day, would they be the same holiday? No, they'd be two > holidays on the same day. If I am born on July 4th, does the whole > country celebrate my birthday? No, you dolt, they celebrate > something else. Hmmm. Well, up here, we don't celebrate anything at all on your birthday, sorry. Nor, with the exception of sundry "Druids", do many folks celebrate pagan feasts these days. It was common practice for the early (and early medieval) Xtians to "borrow" local customs, placing Xtian churches on the sites of pagan shrines, etc. In the case of Xmas, they also borrowed some of the trappings - the holly and the ivy, for one (two?). It's been a while, but I believe a good summary of this sort of thing can be found in Robertson, D.W. _A Preface to Chaucer_. Another source, believe it or not, is _The Catholic Encyclopedia_. Happy Holy Days! Chris.
robinson@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (Michael Robinson) (01/06/88)
In article <2064@geac.UUCP> chris@geac.UUCP (Chris Syed) writes: > > Hmmm. Well, up here, we don't celebrate anything at all on your birthday, > sorry. Nor, with the exception of sundry "Druids", do many folks celebrate > pagan feasts these days. The San Francisco Chronicle sent a reporter over here to Berkeley to find out how many people were planning on celebrating the winter solstice. In a completely unscientific "man on the street" sample, something like 60% said they were. Quite a few neo-pagans running around. I recently learned one of my friends in San Diego is planning on getting "handfasted." If that don't beat all. So, I don't know about the Great White North, but around here they seem to take their pagan feasts seriously. This religious war thing has spread into some of the most unlikely of newsgroups (I think it started in soc.women). Lots of volume. I suggest the formation of a new group. Maybe soc.crusade, or talk.religion.jihad, or alt.good.vs.evil, or something like that. Good old-fashioned religious war like Grandma used to make. Fun for the whole family. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Michael Robinson USENET: ucbvax!ernie!robinson ARPA: robinson@ernie.berkeley.edu
6106264@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Paul Licameli) (01/06/88)
In article <4073@uwmcsd1.UUCP>, markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: >In article <14199@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> matt@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (D 1 4 U 2 C) writes: >>Mark William Hopkins (who did something totally idiotic to the >>headers on his article) writes: >>) Wrong, fool! The Church grafted their commemoration of Christ's >>... >>Good going pea-brain. You think the church kept the original ritual >>... >taking things out of context?). Good going, pea brain... >Better luck next time, fool! Well, I am appalled. The idea, of such intolerant name-calling in talk.origins of all groups! 8^) Seriously, gentle alt.flamers, this lively discussion has little relevance to our happy little forum. Kindly edit your followup lines. Paul R. Licameli