DHASKIN@CLARKU.BITNET (Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services) (04/24/87)
Hi gang -
This is a much-condensed transcript of a discussion that was going on at JNET-L
on Bitnet which should rightly have been here. I think this issue has come
up before, so I thought the list might be interested. Any thoughts?
Denis
P.S. The beginning's pretty boring, I just wanted to give the full story;
it gets more interesting down around the message from WILLIAMSV@VCUVAX.
And apologies for the length; this is about 230 lines.
[ Begin condensation ]---------------------------------------------------
From: Timothy Stephen <STEPHEN@RPICICGE>
Any other tips, warnings and recommendations about using DCL to manage
conversational access to remote services on Bitnet would be greatly
appreciated. Unfortunately, no one associated with my project has much
experience with Vax systems and prior to this, none with DCL. Lack of
equipment has forced us to develop the program on a microvax that doesn't
have Bitnet connection or JNET, so we are flying blind and by the seats
of our pants.
=========================================================================
From: "Jim Gerland (Postmaster)" <GERLAND@UBVMS>
Along these lines, there is a LISTSERV list called VMKIDS-L@UBVM and IRISHVM
started by Nick Laflamme at Notre Dame which allows VM users to pose questions
to each other without fear of asking a 'stupid' question. (Theonly stupid is
one that isn't asked). I'm wondering if we could use a list for VMS people to
do this same thing (VMSKID-L perhaps?).
=========================================================================
From: "Mr. Peter Flass" <ESCFLASS@UBVM>
[ Pete requoted the above message ]
I think this is an excellent suggestion. The more ways we have to
share information the better off we will all be.
=========================================================================
From: magill@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
[ and again requoted ]
It sounds like you want to subscribe to "info-vax" on the ARPANET side.
[... info about subscribing to INFO-VAX... ]
=========================================================================
From: System Manager <DAVIDLI@SIMVAX>
The INFO-VAX list IS available via listserver on BITNET. Try sending the
following message (I'm assuming you've got jnet :-) )
$ SEND LISTSERV@MARIST "subscribe info-vax Full Name"
You will then receive LOTS of mail, some useful and some not so useful (there
is a vast number of different peripherals out there...)
[...]
The ARPAnet address will ensure the widest distribution of your question(s).
=========================================================================
From: "Kevin Cole, Gallaudet U., Washington, DC" <CADS_COLE@GALLUA>
As for a VAX discussion group on BITNET (rather than ARPA) I'm all for it.
=========================================================================
From: WILLIAMSV@VCUVAX
[... requoted from above again...]
The file LISTSERV GROUPS from NICSERVE@BITNIC lists BITNET redistribution list
name for ARPA list as well as listing BITNET distribution lists. For the ARPA
VAX-INFO list it mentions the following:
[.. quote from LISTSERV GROUPS...]
Personal warning: This is a very hot mailing list. We have received up to
50 mail messages in one day on it.
I also think that a separate BITNET-side VAX-INFORMATION distribution list
would be beneficial.
=========================================================================
From: "Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services" <DHASKIN@CLARKU>
[... requoted Cole and Gerland...]
Please not! Let's stick with INFO-VAX from arpa and the bitnet redistribution
please... the larger the community participating, the better the information
will be (and having input from non-academic sites has been very useful). I
think it is much more beneficial. The possibility of splitting the list into
two (maybe like VAX-WIZ and VAX-KID) sounds intriguing but not very possible;
how does one determine where to send a question? What's duck soup to one
VAXer can be mystical manna to another.
Yes, INFO-VAX@SRI-KL.ARPA is 'hot', and I regularly slog thru 20-40 new
messages every morning. But it is absolutely worth it.
=========================================================================
From: "Greg Hamm, Molecular Biology Computing Lab" <HAMM@BIOVAX>
>From: "Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services" <DHASKIN@CLARKU>
>
>> From: "Kevin Cole, Gallaudet U., Washington, DC" <CADS_COLE@GALLUA>
>> As for a VAX discussion group on BITNET (rather than ARPA) I'm all for it.
>AND
>> From: "Jim Gerland (Postmaster)" <GERLAND@UBVMS>
>> I'm wondering if we could use a list for VMS people to do this same thing
>> (VMSKID-L perhaps?). Let's here what you think.
>
>
>Please not! Let's stick with INFO-VAX from arpa and the bitnet redistribution
>please... the larger the community participating, the better the information
..
>Yes, INFO-VAX@SRI-KL.ARPA is 'hot', and I regularly slog thru 20-40 new
>messages every morning. But it is absolutely worth it.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I certainly don't want to read yet another
list. And, by and large, "stupid" questions have been well tolerated and
given helpful answers on INFO-VAX (even the nth time they're asked). I
find the INFO-VAX community *extremely* helpful and would hate to see it
split.
=========================================================================
From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" <DHOSEK@HMCVAX.BITNET>
Another nice list to have would be NETKIDS along the lines of INFONETS...
-DH
=========================================================================
From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" <DHOSEK@HMCVAX.BITNET>
The problem with INFO-VAX is it is *not* for naive users... The discussion tends
to be more on the technical and/or hardware side. I think that VMSKIDS is a fine
idea.
-DH
=========================================================================
From: "Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services" <DHASKIN@CLARKU>
> From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" <DHOSEK@HMCVAX.BITNET>
>
> The problem with INFO-VAX is it is *not* for naive users... The discussion
> tends to be more on the technical and/or hardware side. I think that
> VMSKIDS is a fine idea.
Aha. This is enlarging the issue a bit. As someone mentioned earlier,
INFO-VAX listeners are more than willing to assist in basic questions, even
again and again every couple of months. I do see your point that a naive
user would not want to slog through messages about process parameters and
what MPW_LOLIMIT should be on a node named Fred [ I am not going to even get
into the educational aspect of seeing things that one *might* not
necessarily understand now, but... ].
What bothers me more, though, is the similarity this has to problems that
many Information Systems departments have to deal with, that is, a large
majority of users, especially novices, if given the choice between (a)
looking up how to do something in a manual or on on-line help, or (b)
walking across the room or down the hall or across campus to ask a 'guru',
will usually do (b). Which is fine if that is the person's designated
role, but quite often it is not, and that person is prevented from doing
what they are hired to because they are interrupted every 10-15 minutes to
find the missing semicolon in a Pascal routine (okay, I admit it, this
happens to me. And I am being biased, as I spent several years in an
environment where there *were* no gurus and no INFO-VAX and if you wanted
to knonw something you read the manual and poked around the system).
I know there may be flames about 'management philosophy' and the like,
but my point is that if you put up a list and say here, this list is
specifically for you to ask all the 'simple' questions you were too
timid to put on INFO-VAX, please think about (a) the traffic you might
generate and (b) who's going to participate? I consider myself a relative
expert with VMS, and I would not participate... I wouldn't benefit.
And if other VMS experts feel the same way, who on the list will be
providing the expertise (can you see Jerry on that list?). Or do you
envision beginning to middle users participating?
I do see your desire for a forum for novice VAXers, but I would encourage
people to look in-house for such assistance.
Hmm. This response makes me sound like a jerk, so feel free to flame. I
understand the need for dissemination of information, but please think
about how useful it would or wouldn't be. Of course, this may all be moot
if the list goes up and noone subscribes ("what if they gave a war and
nobody came?").
TGIF (okay, almost)
=========================================================================
From: Ned Freed <NED@YMIR.BITNET>
I will have to agree with Denis Haskin about who will read a "VAX novice"
list. Speaking as a VMS wizard, you wouldn't find me anywhere near such a
list! I spend a good percentage of my time already answering the novice
questions our local users have (its not a problem for me since I consider
it to be part of my job) and I can't spare the time to handle additional
novice requests. This is the reason I rarely reply to novice info-vax
questions, even when I know the answer.
My personal interest in info-vax is as a place to post and read articles
about technically sophisticated issues. The traffic in novice Q/A is fine
by me, but I don't think a separate novice group would ever work.
Ned
=========================================================================
From: Sid Penstone <PENSTONE@QUCDNEE1>
I think that it is still worth while for "naive"users to read the INFO-VAX
on ARPA; there are questions and answers at all levels, and enough patient
VMS gurus to answer the simple questions. The user base is VERY broad.
There are also useful DCL hints from experienced managers.
=========================================================================
From: "Ghost in the (Turing) Machine" <PETERSC0@VUENGVAX>
I can definitely understand the sentiment of some people on the INFO-VAX
list when they say that they have other work to do and would not be interested
in churning through the mail on a Novices list. On the other hand, I have
such things in my blood (even though I no longer have that as my primary
function at work) and I would not mind at all.
Perhaps, as an alternative, I might suggest a Net-Novices mailing-list.
It might serve for novices in all respects to pose questions to each other
and to those willing to help. I surely can't volunteer either a new LISTSERV
at my site (and therefore I cannot offer to chair the list), but I would be
willing to help out as I can.
Chris Petersen
=========================================================================
From: "Don Hosek, Editor, TeXMaG" <DHOSEK@HMCVAX.BITNET>
Re: what if they gave a war and nobody came?
Good point. I suspect that most novice VMS users don't know enough about BITNET
&c. to make this too feasible... :-)
-DHSUN@YALEVAX5.BITNET.UUCP (04/28/87)
==========================================================================
To info-vax@sri-kl.arpa through gateway
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
I think some people don't like the info-vax on ARPA because they
cannot contribute; the bitnet sub-distributor don't accept contributions. I
have been asked for forwarding messages to info-vax by several users who
have no access to ARPAnet; for example, some VAXs that run JNET.
There is a way to send mails to practically any network provided it
has a gateway on a BITNET site. I use the following procedure to send mails
to info-vax. For more informations on sending mails to foreign network, you
can get file ARPACSNE.GATEWAY by
TELL NICSERVE AT BITNIC SENDME ARPACSNE GATEWAY (VMX)
or SEND/REMOTE BITNIC NICSERVE
SENDME ARPACSNE GATEWAY (VMS)
$! INFO-VAX.COM
$! Send a mail to INFO-VAX on ARPA
$! RELEASE: 2.1
$!*********************************************************************
$!
$! parameters
$ SENDER_NODE = "YALEVAX5.BITNET" !chage these definition to your sites
$ SENDER_NAME = "SUN@YALEVAX5.BITNET"
$ GATE ="smtpuser@wiscvm"
$ NAME ="INFO-VAX@SRI-KL.ARPA
$! The command to invoke your editor
$ EDITOR = "@mailedit.com "
$!
$ ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO PANIC
$ ON CONTROL_C THEN GOTO PANIC
$! The subject
$ read sys$command SUBJECT /prompt="Subject: "
$! The file name
$ read sys$command FILENAME /prompt="File name: "
$ if FILENAME .nes. "" then FILENAME = f$parse("''FILENAME'")
$ DEFDIR = f$directory()
$ SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN
$!
$! generate message number
$ MSGNO = f$time()
$ MSGNO = f$element(1," ",MSGNO)
$ MSGNO = MSGNO-":"
$ MSGNO = MSGNO-":"
$ MSGNO = f$extract(0,6,MSGNO)
$ MSGMSG = MSGNO + ".MSG"
$ MSGJOB = MSGNO + ".JOB"
$ MSGHEAD = MSGNO + ".MED"
$!
$! prepare the message body
$ if FILENAME .nes. "" then copy 'FILENAME' 'MSGMSG'
$ EDITOR 'MSGMSG' 'MSGMSG'
$!
$ clear
$ open/append out 'MSGMSG'
$! put here you disclaimer and address
$ write out "---------------------------------------------------------------
-----------"
$ write out " From ''SENDER_NAME' @''f$time()' EST"
$ write out "===============================================================
==========="
$ write out "."
$ write out "QUIT"
$ close out
$!
$ open/write out 'MSGHEAD'
$ write out "HELO ''SENDER_NODE'"
$! next line is out if you don't want a transaction record from gateway
$! write out "VERB ON"
$ write out "TICK 2157"
$ write out "MAIL FROM: <''SENDER_NAME'>
$ write out "RCPT TO: <''NAME'>
$ write out "DATA"
$ write out "Date: ''f$time()' EST"
$ write out "From: ''SENDER_NAME'"
$ write out "Subject: ''SUBJECT'"
$ write out "To: ''NAME'"
$ write out ""
$ write out "===============================================================
==========="
$ write out "To ''NAME' through gateway ''GATE'"
$ write out "---------------------------------------------------------------
-----------"
$ close out
$!
$ open/write job 'MSGJOB'
$ write job "$ convert/append ''MSGMSG' ''MSGHEAD'"
$ write job "$ Convert /Fdl=Dclconv ''MSGHEAD' ''MSGHEAD'"
$ write job "$ send/file/punch ''MSGHEAD' ''GATE'"
$ write job "$ delete/noconfirm ''MSGNO'*.*;*"
$ write job "$ exit"
$ close job
$
$ submit/nolog/nopring 'MSGJOB'
$ goto END
$panic:
$ write sys$output "Quit without sending message."
$ if f$logical("out") .nes. "" then close out
$END:
$ set default 'DEFDIR'
$ exit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Kang Sun SUN@YALEVAX5.BITNET @27-APR-1987 10:57:48.77 EST
==========================================================================X230GV@TAMVM1.BITNET.UUCP (04/29/87)
> I think some people don't like the info-vax on ARPA because they >cannot contribute; the bitnet sub-distributor don't accept contributions. I >have been asked for forwarding messages to info-vax by several users who >have no access to ARPAnet; for example, some VAXs that run JNET. I think this is certainly true, but I don't understand why it's necessary. Bitnet listservs can have peers so that there are many redistribution sites all over the net, thus cutting down on total net traffic. A subscriber is automatically assigned to the nearest listserv which carries the list in question. In addition, you can submit to any of those listservs (usually the nearest one, of course). There is no problem here. Conceptually there is no difference with one of the servers being on ARPAnet; the only problem is that the server on ARPAnet apparently echoes messages back to the sender. Thus, if someone submitted to info-vax@tamvm1 (my home node), the message would get sent to subscribers here and also to some peer servers. If one of those was info-vax@sri-kl.arpa, it would send the message there. The arpa server would send it back to the Bitnet servers, and it would get rebroadcast . . . you see how it goes. This would be simple to fix. Either set up the ARPA server not to echo to the sender (the usual Bitnet policy) or, if that's not acceptable, set it up not to echo IF the sender is listserv@somenode.bitnet. Then the Bitnet servers could be set up to accept submissions from everyone, and we'd have it a lot easier over here. Are there any problems with this that I'm not aware of? I'd really like to hear from the list managers about this. On the question of separate lists for Bitnet or novices: I don't think it would work. With a separate Bitnet list, most people would subscribe to both (``Wouldn't want to miss some juicy tidbit on the other side!''), and in addition most questions would be submitted to both (``Wouldn't want to miss out on one of the experts on the other side!''). This would only increase traffic and duplications. For the novice list, it's even more clear cut. What experts would subscribe to answer the questions? Not many. But most of the novice's questions would be answerable by other novices, right? Don't count on it, but even if that's true, many novices would send to the expert's list also (``No novice will know this one; I'd better ask the big guys''). The novice list would almost certainly die. As much as I hate slogging through the voluminous INFO-VAX mail every morning, I think we should keep it as it is (albeit with a little equalization across the gateway). Regards, Glenn Vanderburg