keith@a.cs.okstate.edu (Keith Lovelace) (05/29/87)
Help!!!
We here at OSU have just recently decided that we would purchase a VAX 8350 and
run ULTRIX on it. We currently are running a VAX 11/780 with VMS. We would
like to run DECNet to the two machines for file transferr, mail, etc. (our
first attempt at DECNetting anything). We would then like to run a TCP/IP
link on the 8350 to do the terminal interface. The first problem arises in
the fact that there are very few DEC people who know anything about ULTRIX,
much less TCP/IP. This is also our first attempt at providing a campus wide
UNIX (at least a derivative) system, and also our first attempt at TCP/IP
networking. In other words, we are stepping into unknown and previously
untouched areas. To get on with it, my questions may be simple to you but
are still confusing to me.
Problem one. Can ULTRIX, or 4.2 BSD (since it is supposedly not changed by
DEC) support both a DECNet link and a TCP/IP link at the same time without
problems?
Problem two. Does ULTRIX do very well talking to terminal servers such as
the ANNEX UX on TCP/IP?
ETC. Knowing that the 8350 is a BI bus machine, and that it comes configured
with one BI to Ethernet adapter, does DEC sell this adapter as a seperate
device? I have only been able to find Unibus or Q-bus adapters.
The reason for going to the TCP/IP connection for terminals is based on the
fact that we don't want to lock ourselves into $'s of DEC hardware for
DECNet and then 2 years from now buy an ENCORE and find ourselves in
a real hole.
Are there other options that we are leaving out? Are we getting ready to
spend $'s only so that we can screw ourselves? Does anyone out their
run a machine that has the dual connections discussed? Is there some
other way that we haven't thought of that we are going to screw ourselves?
Keith...
___________________________________________________________________________
Keith Lovelace
Computer Center Internet: keith@a.ucc.okstate.edu
Oklahoma State University UUCP: {cbosgd, ihnp4, rutgers, seismo,
Stillwater, Oklahoma uiucdcs}!okstate!keith
Phone: (405) 624-6301cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) (05/29/87)
In article <2033@a.cs.okstate.edu> keith@a.cs.okstate.edu (Keith Lovelace) writes: >Problem one. Can ULTRIX, or 4.2 BSD (since it is supposedly not changed by >DEC) support both a DECNet link and a TCP/IP link at the same time without >problems? yes, no problem. and supposedly ultrix 2.0 will support a sort of semi-transparent file and remote login capabilities (vms site says copy and the ultrix site takes the copy on one side and converts it to a ftp on the other) >Problem two. Does ULTRIX do very well talking to terminal servers such as >the ANNEX UX on TCP/IP? yes, just fine..... >ETC. Knowing that the 8350 is a BI bus machine, and that it comes configured >with one BI to Ethernet adapter, does DEC sell this adapter as a seperate >device? I have only been able to find Unibus or Q-bus adapter it is call a DEBNT and is the slowest ethernet board DEC makes (on the fastest bus the dec makes :-) )....anyway I understand that the delua on a bi->unibus adapter is faster (though more expensive) explore with you sales person re: the DEBNT II.... (by the way, another pathway is to get tcp/ip for vms for an educational institution it is VERY cheap and I DO NOT MEAN wollongong...) -ed cetron computer systems manager center for engineering design univ of utah
mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Michael Khaw) (05/29/87)
In article <2033@a.cs.okstate.edu> keith@a.cs.okstate.edu (Keith Lovelace) writes: ... >Problem one. Can ULTRIX, or 4.2 BSD (since it is supposedly not changed by >DEC) support both a DECNet link and a TCP/IP link at the same time without >problems? > >Problem two. Does ULTRIX do very well talking to terminal servers such as >the ANNEX UX on TCP/IP? > We run both tcp/ip and decnet on our Ultrix machines, each of which has a single DEC ethernet interface (DEUNA, DEQNA, DELUA, as appropriate). We also have many terminals that connect via tcp/ip terminal servers (Cisco Systems "TIP"s). I don't know what you mean by "do very well". People on terminal servers get marginally more sluggish response, because of the tcp/ip packet overhead, than people on direct lines to the vax, but it is quite tolerable. Anyone accustomed to VMS decnet will find the Ultrix decnet rather impoverished. Ultrix decnet file transfer is rather inconvenient compared to either ftp or VMS to VMS decnet file transfer. Decnet remote logins from VMS to Ultrix are also awkward because of the VMS terminal driver attempts to handle control character interpretation (you can turn most of it off, but the point is that decnet doesn't do that automatically for you), and line-oriented (instead of character-oriented) i/o. We run tcp/ip on our VMS machines and use it in preference to Decnet. Mike Khaw -- internet: mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa usenet: {hplabs|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|sri-unix}!mkhaw%teknowledge-vaxc.arpa USnail: Teknowledge Inc, 1850 Embarcadero Rd, POB 10119, Palo Alto, CA 94303
davido@gordon.UUCP (David Ornstein) (05/30/87)
In article <4610@utah-cs.UUCP> cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) writes: >In article <2033@a.cs.okstate.edu> keith@a.cs.okstate.edu (Keith Lovelace) writes: >>Problem one. Can ULTRIX, or 4.2 BSD (since it is supposedly not changed by >>DEC) support both a DECNet link and a TCP/IP link at the same time without >>problems? > yes, no problem. and supposedly ultrix 2.0 will support a sort of >semi-transparent file and remote login capabilities (vms site says copy and the >ultrix site takes the copy on one side and converts it to a ftp on the other) After reviewing the doc for ultrix 2.0, we discovered that all that is really supported using the new g-node scheme is NFS support. There is no mention of vms stuff. On the other hand, we are currently running DECnet/Ultrix which allows me to: VMS> COPY FILE.FOO GORDON::"/tmp/123" and csh> dcp "VMSNODE::USERS:[DAVIDO]FILENAME.EXT" /tmp/123 but not csh> cp "VMSNODE::USERS:[DAVIDO]FILENAME.EXT" /tmp/123 dcp is one of a few special commands that are built specifically to work with Decnet/Ultrix. > >(by the way, another pathway is to get tcp/ip for vms for an educational >institution it is VERY cheap and I DO NOT MEAN wollongong...) > Can somebody suggest a good implementation of tcp/ip for vms, or, alternately, a good implementation of NFS for VMS. (N.B> We are not an educational institution. [read $++]). -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Ornstein "Never join a religion that has a water slide." Internet: davido@gordon UUCP: {mit-eddie|seismo}!mirror!gordon!davido or {harvard|ames|decvax|husc6}!necntc!davido US Snail: Access Technology, 6 Pleasant St, Natck MA 01760 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DHASKIN@CLARKU.BITNET (Denis W. Haskin, Manager, Technical Services) (05/31/87)
>Date: 29 May 87 16:53:08 GMT >From: Edward J Cetron <CETRON@CS.UTAH.EDU> >Subject: Re: TCP/IP ETHERNET DECNET VAX >In article <2033@a.cs.okstate.edu> keith@a.cs.okstate.edu (Keith Lovelace) > writes: >[...] >>ETC. Knowing that the 8350 is a BI bus machine, and that it comes >>configured with one BI to Ethernet adapter, does DEC sell this adapter as a >>seperate device? I have only been able to find Unibus or Q-bus adapter >it is call a DEBNT and is the slowest ethernet board DEC makes (on the >fastest bus the dec makes :-) )....anyway I understand that the delua on a >bi->unibus adapter is faster (though more expensive) explore with you sales >person re: the DEBNT II.... Any more info on the 'slowness' of DEBNT? I hadn't heard of this and it bothers me... >(by the way, another pathway is to get tcp/ip for vms for an educational >institution it is VERY cheap and I DO NOT MEAN wollongong...) We are an educational institution... can you elaborate? % Denis W. Haskin Manager, Technical Services % % ----------------------------------------------------------------------- % % DHASKIN@CLARKU.BITNET Office of Information Systems (617)793-7193 % % Clark University 950 Main Street Worcester MA 01610 % % % % "Anyone who _moves_ before Most Holy comes back out will spend the rest % % of eternity sipping lava through an iron straw." - Cerebus %
A.ERIC@GSB-WHY.STANFORD.EDU (Eric M. Berg) (06/03/87)
>>> Date: Fri, 29 May 87 10:53:06 MDT >>> From: cetron@cs.utah.edu (Edward J Cetron) >>> Subject: Re: TCP/IP ETHERNET DECNET VAX >>> Apparently-To: info-vax@kl.sri.com >>> >>> ........ >>> >>> (by the way, another pathway is to get tcp/ip for vms for an educational >>> institution it is VERY cheap and I DO NOT MEAN wollongong...) >>> I believe Ed Cetron may have been referring to the Tektronix implementation of TCP/IP for VMS (with enhancements from CMU), which I believe is available free to educational institutions. For anyone who is interested, I will re-post to INFO-VAX information about how to get Tektronix TCP/IP for VMS, how to get the CMU enhancements, and how to join the TEKTCP mailing list. (I'm also interested in hearing anything that is known about the performance of the BI-bus Ethernet interface, the "DEBNT", since we've ordered at VAX 8550, and a good Ethernet interface will be critical. Does anyone know if there's been any discussion of this on the Info-Unix or Unix-Wizards mailing lists?) Eric M. Berg Computer Facility Grad. School of Business Stanford University -------