[comp.os.vms] DEC/IBM networking info request

earley@modular.UUCP (Joe Earley) (02/25/88)

A friend of mine is trying to get a couple of large IBMs talking to a few
large and small DEC machines (uVAXes and 8550s) over an Ethernet.  He
is looking for information about hardware and software combinations that do
the following:

1) 3270 emulation from any terminal on the DEC side,
2) VT100/200 emulation from any terminal on the IBM side,
3) and file transfer and remote logins initiated from either side.

He has looked into the DEC SNA Gateway product and would also like opinions
on how it works.  He did mention that DEC told him that their product would
not allow users on the IBM to initiate any logins or file transfers from
the IBM side, which is different from what I've been told by our DEC rep.

He would also like to find out anything on training that would get him up and
running quickly on VMS.  He is an experienced IBMer but has had limited
experience with VMS so he is looking into publications or courses that
you kind folks could recommend.

Respond to the net, mail responses to me for forwarding, or send info directly
to him.  I'm flexible.  His name, address, and phone number is:

Gary Hopp
Mead Paper Co.
PO BOX 757
Escanaba, MI  49829
(906)-786-1660

Thanks.
-- 
Joe Earley, Modular Mining Systems
USENET:     {ihnp4,allegra,cmcl2,hao!noao}!arizona!modular!earley
INTERNET:   modular!earley@arizona.edu

terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) (03/04/88)

In article <556@modular.UUCP>, earley@modular.UUCP (Joe Earley) writes:
> 
> A friend of mine is trying to get a couple of large IBMs talking to a few
> large and small DEC machines (uVAXes and 8550s) over an Ethernet.

  Tee Hee.

> 1) 3270 emulation from any terminal on the DEC side,

	Yes, OK, if you pay enough (yes, but they want MORE than enough).

> 2) VT100/200 emulation from any terminal on the IBM side,

	Tee Hee Hee Hee.  Haw Haw.  Anybody out there *ever* hear of a
batch-mode emulator for IBM mainframes that can send ASCII, let alone the
regular control codes required/sent by a VT100?  How do you expect to do
Sixels on a 3101, running in blockmode thru an 8101 controller?  VT100 might
be possible, but come back in 5(*10^3?) years when the IBM can do raw I/O.
Async?  Hee Hee Hee Hee.  They can barely do sync.

> 3) and file transfer and remote logins initiated from either side.

	DEC side, both.  IBM side, file transfers only.  ISO Network, no way.
Sorry, data transport only.  Now maybe if you had a program looking for files
coming into a directory and then ran them and deleted them, and you 3270'ed
a file containing a DCL command to do the stuff on the VAX...

> He has looked into the DEC SNA Gateway product and would also like opinions
> on how it works.  He did mention that DEC told him that their product would
> not allow users on the IBM to initiate any logins or file transfers from
> the IBM side, which is different from what I've been told by our DEC rep.

	Your DEC rep is wrong, unless he's talking about an IBM running UNIX
or your IDEA of a "large IBM" is PC in a refridgerator-sized case.  IBM has
enough problems running their own terminal sessions, which are basically
kludged batches...

	1: Ever hear of IBM's first OS?
	2: Yes, you're typing on it.

> He would also like to find out anything on training that would get him up and
> running quickly on VMS.  He is an experienced IBMer but has had limited
> experience with VMS so he is looking into publications or courses that
> you kind folks could recommend.

	Digital has some nifty seminars, if you can part with your a body
part to pay for it or convince your boss your programming will improve (I have
yet to do this).

			terry@wsccs

bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) (03/07/88)

Re: question about IBM/OTHER networking...

We do a lot of what you want in production here at Boston University.
Incrementally and evolutionarily it's not very hard to grow, all at
once I guess it can be some trouble, but here's the basic idea.

In the first place we use TCP/IP for ethernet (and other media, eg.
fiber-optic) networking, this ties together the largest number of
heterogeneous systems the way you want.

For the VMS system you can get the Wollongong or other products.  You
almost certainly want both their Eunice (UNIX emulation) package on at
least one system (to build software I mention later) and their WIN
(TCP/IP) on all systems involved.

For the IBM system you also have a choice of products, for MVS contact
ACC (maybe someone on the list has a phone # handy?), for VM the two
major products are either Wiscnet from IBM (we run it on a DACU/7170,
I guess IBM now has a replacement piece of hardware for that, a DACU
is basically an IBM/channel to Unibus adapter, really has a DD11-K
inside it into which is plugged an Interlan board, it uses an IBM/PC
sitting on top also) or try Fibronics (nee Spartacus) in
Massachussetts. I only have experience with the IBM/Wiscnet product
and it works well enough.

You now want to get a copy of TN3270 which is free in source form
(from where? Hmm, you can FTP it off of BU-IT.BU.EDU,
src/utils/tn3270.v2/*, anonymous login, there are official sources
also, one of the Berkeley machines. This is a version of Telnet which
works from Unix or the VMS/WIN system and emulates various 3278
terminals, it works both with the Wiscnet and ACC products here, I
believe Fibronics/VM has their own way of doing this (emulating 327x's
on the IBM host rather than the local host.)

This would then support things like FTP (file transfer) and e-mail so
that solves itself more or less (there's some amount of work in
getting mail working smoothly but I believe the vendors involved are,
well, involved.)

This also gets you similar access to a lot of other systems which run
TCP/IP (eg. Unix in general, DG/AOS, IBM/PC's [various products, Sun,
FTP Software in Cambridge, MA], so it might be worth the trouble
involved when you look at the big picture.

Wiscnet allows you to telnet to an Ascii host but don't expect
anything like a CRT, it's more like a paper terminal as characters are
only sent from the 3278 when ENTER is hit. It's the nature of the
beast, not a software issue.

I have seen black boxes which aren't terribly expensive which splice
themselves into the 327x coax and present an RS232 line out the side.
A switch on the box allows switching between normal 3278ness and the
black box which then emulates a VT100 quite faithfully. This is sort
of a half assed solution because now you'll have to hook the RS232
line to a terminal server which can go to the other ASCII systems, so
it doesn't really use the abovementioned networking at all (except, of
course, it could go to a TCP terminal server, such as Encore's Annex
box.)

Anyhow, that basically describes our environment here and people seem
happy enough with that aspect (terminal emulation.) Most people use
ASCII terminals and attach via tn3270 or directly through our campus
broadband (U/B) network to a 7171 so the issue of 3278/ASCII emulation
doesn't much come up, thankfully, it really is a problem although I
pointed out some possible solutions short of throwing away your 3278s,
they're really half-way between paper terminals and CRTs and hard to
do much with in an heterogeneous environment.

	-Barry Shein, Boston University

dboyes@uoregon.UUCP (David Boyes) (03/07/88)

In article <253@wsccs.UUCP> terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) writes:
>In article <556@modular.UUCP>, earley@modular.UUCP (Joe Earley) writes:
>> A friend of mine is trying to get a couple of large IBMs talking to a few
>> large and small DEC machines (uVAXes and 8550s) over an Ethernet.
>> 1) 3270 emulation from any terminal on the DEC side,

I've read about some boxes that take ASCII input and spit out 327x
style bisync for around $2500 per 16 port box. You still need a 3174
on the IBM side to handle the I/O processing (when will DEC ever learn
to use smarter terminal controllers? -- everyone else has....), but it
is possible. Telenet does it all the time.

>> 2) VT100/200 emulation from any terminal on the IBM side,
>	Tee Hee Hee Hee.  Haw Haw.  Anybody out there *ever* hear of a
>batch-mode emulator for IBM mainframes that can send ASCII, let alone the
>regular control codes required/sent by a VT100?

Don't jump to conclusions. IBM sells an update to the 3174
hardware/firmware that installs VT100/220 emulation for 327x
terminals. If you have 3279-2 or -3 terminals, you even get Regis or
Sixel graphics and downloadable character sets. Works just dandy --
saw an IBM guy call a local BBS (supports full screen graphics, etc)
from a 3279 and a regular Hayes modem and it worked like a charm.
Other people were running SNA sessions and XEDITing away while all
this was going on with no noticeable degradation.

>be possible, but come back in 5(*10^3?) years when the IBM can do raw I/O.
>Async?  Hee Hee Hee Hee.  They can barely do sync.

Get real. DEC can't put 12,000 terminals on a single machine,
either. What difference does it make? 

>> 3) and file transfer and remote logins initiated from either side.
>	DEC side, both.  IBM side, file transfers only.  ISO Network, no way.

VM/TCP allows all Internet facilities. FTP, telnet, rlogin, etc. 

>> He has looked into the DEC SNA Gateway product and would also like opinions
>> on how it works.  He did mention that DEC told him that their product would
>> not allow users on the IBM to initiate any logins or file transfers from
>> the IBM side, which is different from what I've been told by our DEC rep.

Our IBM SE seemed fairly impressed with DEC's SNA gateway. He said
that there were some nice things about DEC terminal sessions 
that IBM implemented in a strange way on their product. He also
mentioned that the keyboard mapping from VT220 --> 3278 was something
horrendous. 

>>Hewould also like to find out anything on training that would get him up and
>> running quickly on VMS.  He is an experienced IBMer but has had limited
>> experience with VMS so he is looking into publications or courses that
>> you kind folks could recommend.

It certainly is a whole different ball game. The DEC self-study
courses for the operator and using system services from the various
languages are pretty good from what I've seen of them -- but they are
horrendously expensive if you didn't get them as part of the deal with
the machine like we did.

>			terry@wsccs


-- 
David Boyes         | ARPA: 556%OREGON1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Systems Division    | BITNET: 556@OREGON1
UO Computing Center | UUCP: dboyes@uoregon.UUCP
'How long d'ya think it'll be before just us oldtimers remember WISCVM?'      

soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) (03/12/88)

In article <253@wsccs.UUCP>, terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) writes:
> In article <556@modular.UUCP>, earley@modular.UUCP (Joe Earley) writes:
> > A friend of mine is trying to get a couple of large IBMs talking to a few
> > large and small DEC machines (uVAXes and 8550s) over an Ethernet.
>   Tee Hee.

Guffaw Guffaw Guffaw... Actually there was a saleman around here the
other day saying he was aware of a TCP/IP port to the IBM world which
was very close... His lips were moving so I assume he was lying.
Experience with computer salesmen shows this to be true 99% of the
time :-).

> > 2) VT100/200 emulation from any terminal on the IBM side,
> 	Tee Hee Hee Hee.  Haw Haw.  Anybody out there *ever* hear of a
> batch-mode emulator for IBM mainframes that can send ASCII, let alone the
> regular control codes required/sent by a VT100?  How do you expect to do
> Sixels on a 3101, running in blockmode thru an 8101 controller?  VT100 might
> be possible, but come back in 5(*10^3?) years when the IBM can do raw I/O.
> Async?  Hee Hee Hee Hee.  They can barely do sync.

Of course the mainframes won't do it but on a smaller scale there is
at least one 3274 cluster controller that offers 3278/9 terminal to
async host protocol conversion (or vice versa VT100 terminals
to the IBM, it ain't pretty but it works)

-- 
Norman Soley - Data Communications Analyst - Ontario Ministry of the Environment
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