lowey@sask.UUCP (Kevin Lowey) (03/11/88)
Hi,
I've been following the discussion going on about Unix vs VMS. I thought
I'd give a case history of our university from the point of view of a
User Support person.
I received my Computer Science degree from the University I now work at.
All my Computer Science classes were done using the Unix operating system.
You might say I was weaned on Unix. As a programmer, I liked it. I could
get my work done quickly, and it had a lot of development tools.
The computer science department here buy their own computers and put Unix
on them. Originally they had PDP computers, now they use VAXes. When I was
going to school, the rest of the academics used TOPS-20 on a DEC 2060 computer.
Most of the work on this computer consisted of statistical analysis using
SPSS and SAS. There was also some documentation using Scribe, plus a number
of products developed in house in C and Fortran. The C program was done
using the EUNICE unix emulator.
As has been stated in other messages, IBM or VMS computers are better
suited to business applications than UNIX. In our case, the administrative
systems were VAX machines.
About the time I graduated, three main things happened to computing on
campus. First, the separate Academic and Administrative computing departments
were combined to form one department. Secondly, we had outgrown the 2060
and had to upgrade our machines. Finally, we committed our selves to a
campus wide Ethernet computer network.
First, lets look at the conversion. We wanted something which would run
programs which the users already use, SAS, SPSSx, Fortran (ANSI-77). We
also wanted to have a minimum of conversion problems. Since we already had
a DEC 2060, and all the other computers on campus were DEC, it was obvious we
wouldn't buy IBM with its non standard EBCDIC, Terminal protocols, and other
headaches.
Since our logical choice was VAX, we had to decide between UNIX and VMS.
We looked at statistical and other software of the same quality as that on
the 2060, and found that UNIX lacked the support of the commercial software
companies. There was no SAS, SPSS, etc. for UNIX. This limited our only
logical choice to VMS.
Any change of computer systems is traumatic for a user. I was working for
User Support when the change took place. Our job was MUCH simpler when most
of the packages were the same. A lot of stuff needed no conversion. Since
VMS languages all follow the ANSI standards, with DEC extensions, most
programs converted with little problem. Not only did the source code work
with only minor modifications, BUT THE LIBRARIES WERE STILL THERE. Things
like IMSL were still available to people. I'd have probably gone nuts if
I had to hand-hold the users through a conversion to a UNIX system.
By the way, the user's had their fortran programs etc. converted fine.
The conversion was three years ago, and we are still converting the Eunice C
programs we wrote. So much for the "portability" of C. (I have to
admit the programmer used a lot of "eunice" tricks, then left the university
so this comparison might not be fair).
Once users got their stuff transfered onto the system, they had to use it.
It has been argued that Unix has more cheap documentation available. My
reply to that is the casual user of unix needs more than documentation.
How many profs do you know who read manuals :-). All I know is "DIRECTORY"
makes a lot more sense to new users than "ls" (not "LS", thats different).
Sure, you can get windowed shells etc, but what's the overhead for that?
What we do is have a COMPLETE set of manuals for VMS and all software on the
system in our User Support Center, which we lend to people when they need
it. We take their staff or student card as collateral, so they HAVE to get
it back, otherwise they can't get into the campus pub :-) The point is
you don't NEED to have all the VMS manuals, (which are more complete than
the UNIX ones are, in my opinion). What does the SPSS user want with the
run-time-library manual for instance. Programmers may need all the manuals,
but casual users only need an Introduction to VAX manual.
Now lets look at networking. Unix runs on a lot of machines. Fine, so does
VMS. It might not be as many as UNIX, but in the real business world,
more VMS machines are there than UNIX machines. Don't be put off by the
word "Business". A lot of the applications used in Business (Statistics,
Presentation Graphics, database, word processing) also apply to academics.
A lot of companies develop their software for IBM and VMS. Unix seems left
out somehow.
All our VAXes (administrative and academic) are connected via DECnet. I
can copy files easily, using the regular VMS copy command, between all these
machines. All I have to do is add the machine name in front, and supply
a username and a password. In addition, I have a microcomputer on my desk
which is connected via Ethernet to TWO VAX 8650 computers, and TWO laser
printers, one an LN03+ and the other a Postscript printer. My total PC online
storage is over 100MB. This all can be accessed either as MS-DOS files from
my microcomputer, or from the VAX as VMS files.
If I want to do data analysis, I can use Lotus 1-2-3 to enter my data on
the micro, and save the data as an ASCII file. I can then log into the vax,
and the file is already there. No messing with Kermit, etc. I can then
run SAS or whatever to produce my results, edit those results into my
WordPerfect on the microcomputer (again without transferring files), and
print this on a laser printer which could be shared with everyone else on
campus if we wished. Unix may have these capabilities, but I don't think
they are as seamless as DECNET. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
As for wide area networks, we are connected to BITNET. We can use the
JNET software to send files "/VMSDUMP" to other VMS BITNET sites. This
means the files are transfered as binary files, WITH ALL THE FILE
ATTRIBUTES INTACT. Doing this is almost as easy as using the COPY command.
(By the way, BITNET is funded by IBM, not DEC). Bitnet also has gateways
available to most other networks, such as ARPA, UUCP, EDUNET, and others.
File transfer to these networks has to be done with uuencoded mail files,
but we can't have everything :-)
So lets look at what we got by going to VMS instead of UNIX. 3 years ago
before the change, we had three seperate operating systems. TOPS-20, VMS,
and UNIX. Now we have two, UNIX and VMS. The scientific research facilites,
such as the linear accelerator, and the Computer Science department use
UNIX because their users are all well versed in computers, and UNIX has
all the required tools for their applications.
For the casual statistics or word processing user however, the VMS machines
are used. The reasons are VMS applications are more suitable to their needs,
and the VMS utilities are easier to use (tell me VMS mail isn't nicer than UNIX
mail, or that VMS command line editing isn't better than Unix History)
In addition our networking capabilities have added new dimensions to campus
computing unheard of 3 years ago. The micro example above, for instance.
Another example is the locally developed computer marking program and class
managment programs. The professors for each class using the computers can
request that class lists for their class be put into their instructor account
directly from the university student records. If a student drops from a
class, or a new one is added to the class, this is automatically reflected in
the instructors examination database. In addition, accounts for the students
are automatically created or deleted based on the official class lists on the
administration machines. The data isn't at risk, because it is stored on
different machines whos access is controlled by the network software. This
degree of integration between administrative and academic applications is
not as easy using Unix (as far as I know).
In conclusion, I feel that UNIX systems are fine for programmers and other
people who are used to computers, and do their own programming for
specialized tasks.
For the average humanities grad student who wishes to
do statistics for a thesis, unix would be too intimidating to learn. My
job in User Support would be MUCH harder. (or perhaps easier because less
people would use the computers :-). MOST of the people using the computers
at our university fall into the second category. Combine this with the
integration obtained through the campus ethernet to our Admin computers, and
the use of ANSI standards wherever possible in VMS (ANSI tapes, ANSI languages
with extensions, ANSI communications, ASCII text, ...) users can have a
powerful working environment which is easy to use, and easy to transport
to other sites (by using the Standards).
As for business uses. VMS is again superior to UNIX, not for any
technical reasons, but because VMS and IBM are what the vendors are writing
software for.
If you buy IBM, you are definitely locked into one vendor. VAX/VMS is
one vendor as well, but not as much as IBM. You can hook non-DEC devices
to DEC computers a lot easier than to IBM, and the transfer of information
among different sites is much easier if you don't have to worry about
EBCDIC to ASCII translations. To get the degree if integration obtained
in VMS, some hardware dependance is to be expected (ANSI terminals for
instance, again another standard). As for the costs, I agree they are high,
but often University prices are more reasonable.
Technically, Unix might be a better operating system, but for 75% of your
users, the ones who only want to use a computer for their thesis statistics,
or use it occasionally to send mail on networks, or use it to do occasional
word processing, UNIX is just too hard to use. I think any costs you save
in equipment and software in using unix will be eaten up quickly by your
additions to your User Support staff.
I agree that VMS and DEC isn't perfect, but neither is IBM or UNIX. Each
is suited to different needs. I think VMS is the best "middle ground" between
the business world of IBM, and the programming / technical world of UNIX. This
middle ground is what you need in a general purpose academic computer system.
______________________________________________________________________________
| Kevin Lowey |The above is the personal opinion of Kevin |
| University of Saskatchewan |Lowey. It does not reflect the position of|
| Computing Services |the University of Saskatchewan in any way. |
| SaskTel: (306) 966-4826 | |
| Bitnet:LOWEY@SASK. (preferred) |I am in no way affiliated with any of the |
| UUCP: ihnp4!sask!lowey.uucp |above mentioned companies other than U of S|
|________________________________|___________________________________________|terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) (03/23/88)
Kevin, before I start, let me point out that you are mostly addressing user interface issues, not OS issues. While it is true that there is not "as much" software available under UNIX that operates exactly the way software operates on a DEC 2060, you certain can't expect that to be the case. I will deal with some of your topics, as far as I see them to be a comparison of operating systems, and not user interface decisions. This will include software availability. I will also criticize user interface issues which I feel to be baseless, so as to make this posting more interesting to read :-). In article <1060@sask.UUCP>, lowey@sask.UUCP (Kevin Lowey) writes: > It has been argued that Unix has more cheap documentation available. My > reply to that is the casual user of unix needs more than documentation. I think the the amount of documentation which has been professionally written for/about UNIX is based not on "need for documentation", but the fact that there are more UNIX systems out there. VMS, unfortunately, is proprietary (and is being intentionally kept that way) to a single architecture. I am sure that if there were more machines running VMS, or if a supported version ran on the IBM AT (_supported_; not Wendyn's OS toolkit!), there would be a lot more documentation available for VMS. > How many profs do you know who read manuals :-). All of them who wish me to believe they know what they're talking about. A computer science professor who is unwilling to crack a manual is about as useful as a psycologist running a computing services department. > All I know is "DIRECTORY" makes a lot more sense to new users than "ls" > (not "LS", thats different). That is primarily your background showing through. A user whose first experience with an office computer is SCO Xenix will find "DIRECTORY" quaint, verbose, and hard to remember. Having first encountered a built-in directory command on a VOS system, "MAP" seems quite natural to me :-(. > Sure, you can get windowed shells etc, but what's the overhead for that? Less than the overhead for CLD's, if you are talking processing time and memory required. Contact HCR of Canada. What does a "windowed shell" have to do with command line command names? A have seen a number of excellent "menu-driven-DCL" programs; does their overhead endear me to the Bourne Shell? I think not. A horde of talk.bizzarre probably couldn't endear me to the Bourne Shell :-). > Now lets look at networking. Unix runs on a lot of machines. Fine, so > does VMS. Modern networking was invented on UNIX machines at UCB... IBM's stuff does not count as modern. As to the variety of machines VMS runs on vs. the variety of machines UNIX runs on, you seem to have limited your sample to DEC architectures... > It might not be as many as UNIX, but in the real business world, more VMS > machines are there than UNIX machines. Don't be put off by the word > "Business". I think you are mistaken here. Please compare the number of UNIX systems running on Intel processor based machines alone with the number of VMS systems out there. If you want the horrible truth, in the "real business world", there are more MS-DOS systems than either. That does not mean that it is desirable to indoctrinate students into the idosyncracies of DOS if there is a good VMS or UNIX system available. Unfortunately, DOS is in wise use, and so must be dealt with in any comprehensive program with the intent of bringing students out with a capability to deal with "what's out there". It seems that a firm grounding in "how to run a MAC" is needed these days, as well, sigh. > A lot of the applications used in Business (Statistics, Presentation > Graphics, database, word processing) also apply to academics. As of the last issue of a number of trade journals, SPSS runs on many UNIX systems, and there are versions for PC's. Presentation graphics is owned by Apple, with Commodore Edging up fast and Atari a close third. Informix, a primarily UNIX product, by volume, is probably the best-selling database out there, with the possible exception of dBase, a PC product, and a number of it clones, which run on UNIX systems. Hypercard for the MAC is making fast inroads, but probably will not really "get in there" until 2 or 3 more revisions. Word Perfect, far and away the world leader, with 40% of *ALL* word processing programs having been sold by them, runs under DOS, UNIX, Xenix, TOS (Atari), AmigaDOS (Commodore), AND VMS. Now it would be truly silly if "academics" had no basis in what people were getting paid (so they could feed their faces) to do, wouldn't it? > A lot of companies develop their software for IBM and VMS. Unix seems left > out somehow. On the contrary, most software houses I know of (and Utah's Wasatch front is _THE_ silicon valley of software) write first for DOS, then UNIX, then other machines. DEC has exactly the same number of people in their VMS and ULTRIX developement groups (although they have *many* programmers developing the "layered" software for VMS only). In addition, since finding themselves unable to convince GSA to not insist on SVID for the AFCAC, DEC has announced plans to develope their own SVID compatable operating system... a UNIX SysV. > All our VAXes (administrative and academic) are connected via DECnet. DECnet runs on Ultrix, DOS, and many UNIX machines, including SUN microsystems. > I can copy files easily, using the regular VMS copy command, between all these > machines. All I have to do is add the machine name in front, and supply > a username and a password. If you have correctly set up your proxy file, you needn't do even that. The same is true, however, of systems running NFS, or _ANY_ machine running the Wollongong products for standard TCP/IP. Intel's OpenNET is currently being tested for many systems... From DOS to Xenix to VMS. > In addition, I have a microcomputer on my desk which is connected via > Ethernet to TWO VAX 8650 computers, and TWO laser printers, one an LN03+ > and the other a Postscript printer. My total PC online storage is over > 100MB. This all can be accessed either as MS-DOS files from > my microcomputer, or from the VAX as VMS files. This is true of many operating systems. You don't get out much, do you? > If I want to do data analysis, I can use Lotus 1-2-3 to enter my data on > the micro, and save the data as an ASCII file. I can then log into the vax, > and the file is already there. No messing with Kermit, etc. I can then > run SAS or whatever to produce my results, edit those results into my > WordPerfect on the microcomputer (again without transferring files), and > print this on a laser printer which could be shared with everyone else on > campus if we wished. Unix may have these capabilities, but I don't think > they are as seamless as DECNET. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Among other products, they ARE DECnet. In addition, Lotus Clones such as VIP Professional or SCO Professional run on enough machines that the number of machines available to run them on exceeds the number of PC's out there. In addition, introduction of products such as DOSmerge and VP/IX have your DOS programs running as tasks UNDER UNIX. This of course can be done on other systems (evidence: the software emulators for the Amiga and ST), but as far as I know, you have to buy extra hardware for a VAX, weather or not it runs UNIX or VMS or RSTS. Correct ME if I'm wrong. > As for wide area networks, we are connected to BITNET. We can use the > JNET software to send files "/VMSDUMP" to other VMS BITNET sites. This > means the files are transfered as binary files, WITH ALL THE FILE > ATTRIBUTES INTACT. Doing this is almost as easy as using the COPY command. > (By the way, BITNET is funded by IBM, not DEC). Bitnet also has gateways > available to most other networks, such as ARPA, UUCP, EDUNET, and others. > File transfer to these networks has to be done with uuencoded mail files, > but we can't have everything :-) The additional networks you mention are (can't say UNIX networks) running on hardware under UNIX. If you wish to maintain attributes, BACKUP the files before uuencoding them. One bad thing about the VMS file system is that it does not lend itself to easy transfer via asynchronus methods. > So lets look at what we got by going to VMS instead of UNIX. 3 years ago > before the change, we had three seperate operating systems. TOPS-20, VMS, > and UNIX. Now we have two, UNIX and VMS. The scientific research facilites, > such as the linear accelerator, and the Computer Science department use > UNIX because their users are all well versed in computers, and UNIX has > all the required tools for their applications. > > For the casual statistics or word processing user however, the VMS machines > are used. The reasons are VMS applications are more suitable to their needs, > and the VMS utilities are easier to use (tell me VMS mail isn't nicer than > UNIX mail, or that VMS command line editing isn't better than Unix History) You're quite right that the DEFAULT utilities do not measure up to VMS standards. To say they were "better" would be to drag myself into a large debate on user interface preferences. > This degree of integration between administrative and academic applications > is not as easy using Unix (as far as I know). Please read above. > As for business uses. VMS is again superior to UNIX, not for any > technical reasons, but because VMS and IBM are what the vendors are writing > software for. I write software for UNIX and VMS and BTOS and DOS and... :-). > If you buy IBM, you are definitely locked into one vendor. VAX/VMS is > one vendor as well, but not as much as IBM. You can hook non-DEC devices > to DEC computers a lot easier than to IBM, and the transfer of information > among different sites is much easier if you don't have to worry about > EBCDIC to ASCII translations. To get the degree if integration obtained > in VMS, some hardware dependance is to be expected (ANSI terminals for > instance, again another standard). As for the costs, I agree they are high, > but often University prices are more reasonable. DEC harware plug-campatables "plug-in" regardless of the OS! I use an ANSI terminal to VMS and UNIX systems on a daily basis. I really would be more interested in someone with source liscences comparing and contrasting paging algorythms. Then we could move this discussion to one of the .os. groups. Currently, it seems, it needs to be moved to user.interface.bashing. My 8 cents worth terry@wsccs