TBLAKE@BINGVAXA.BITNET ("Thomas_R._Blake") (03/16/88)
Folks, So ... once again the mighty knights have taken the field to fight for God and operating system. I thought that by now people would realize that OS's are very much like religions. We stick with the one we are most comfortable with. Some feel the need to defend their choice. Every few months, my mailbox gets stuffed with crys of righteous indignation from both UNIX and VMS bigots who strongly believe that I and the rest of the list want to hear their fight. Once in a while a VM bigot even sticks their nose in. The purpose of this list is to help one another, not to hurl insults. Hey folks, there's a bunch of people out here who think UNIX is God's gift to the masses. And the fact of the matter is I can see why. There are also a number of us who believe VMS to be one of sanest large computer operationg systems. We can all scream till we're blue in that face. You will not be able to convince someone by electronic mail that your OS is better than theirs. At our university we support (in alpha order) CMS, MVS, UNIX, and VMS. Because we feel that each OS has it's applications. Each OS has its cult. I don't believe that an educational institution should support one OS to the exclusion of others. I do believe that a commercial institution might be wise to do so in order to maintain consistance throughout the company. In any case, if you folks want to try to convert each other, how 'bout moving the discussion off of this most public forum? Most of us have work to do. Thomas R. Blake Lead Programmer/Analyst Academic Support SUNY Binghamton Binghamton, NY 13901 (USA)
arosen@eagle.ulowell.edu (MFHorn) (03/23/88)
My $.07 [inflation]: To the people crying "STOP THIS TRASH!", that's what kill files are for! And, generally, this type of war is healthy. It is the best to find out what people find lacking in each OS, what they like most about an OS, etc. Onto other miscellaneous flames and other drivel... [rrk@byuvax.bitnet writes] > From what I have seen of UNIX running on a VAX, it consumes much more system > overhead than VMS What kind of tests, if any, have you done? Admittedly, I haven't done any, but Unix is known for it's compact, elegant, _efficient_ kernel. > VMS is more secure by far than UNIX. ...VMS, unlike UNIX > is presumed to be totally secure. *NO* multi-user system is totally secure! I broke into a VMS Vax (V4.5) in seconds. How? Someone typed in a priveleged password nice and slow while I was watching. The biggest security hole in most systems is the manager(s). > All the UUCP and usenet I've ever seen has been on a VMS VAX. Then, logically, you've never seen Unix, since all Unixes have UUCP. All the *Unix* to *Unix* CoPy has been on VMS?!?! Someone said everything new and innovative is done under VMS. If this is so, then why has DEC said they're going to give equal support to VMS and Ultrix? And why is Data General moving towards DG/UX as their main OS instead of their propietary AOS (I might be wrong about this, I heard it as a rumor)? And why are so many newer companies using Unix exclusively, like Sequent and Sun? Is it a coincidence that they're also quite successful? As far as user interfaces go, sure VMS' DCL is easier to learn. But once either is learned, it doesn't matter much how easy it was to learn it. Just on what the user prefers, and on what you can do with it. I prefer typing "rm" over "del" and "chmod" over "set file/prot", simply because I have to type fewer characters (aliases/symbols aside). And "DCL is more powerful" is pretty moot, since tcsh (much more powerful than DCL or C-shell) is PD, and (PD) GNU's 'M-x shell' both make better CLIs. Oh yeah, M-x shell doesn't work in GNU under VMS. Sorry. Personally, I can think of no application for which I would use VMS and not Unix, except maybe administrating a machine, and then it depends on the environment. Job control, redirection, pipes, are just _too_ powerful to do without. This does not include, for example, spreadsheet work, where I'd take Lotus on VMS over PD VisiCalc on Unix. That's a matter of which spreadsheet [application program] is better, not which OS. Access to system services in VMS is pretty bogus; there's a seperate manual just on what they do, and it doesn't even say how to use them in a given language. Unix? The system calls are function calls. Simple enough? And, monocase is intolerable. So is forcing every file name to have at least one "." in it. So is needing to set up a symbol to pass command line parameters to a C program. So is limiting command history to 20. So is not having any games :-) Etc, etc. But, this is getting back to the "Each OS is good for what it's good for" argument. The best argument so far. Andy Rosen | arosen@hawk.ulowell.edu | "I got this guitar and I ULowell, Box #3031 | ulowell!arosen | learned how to make it Lowell, Ma 01854 | | talk" -Thunder Road RD in '88 - The way it should be
darin@laic.UUCP (Darin Johnson) (03/25/88)
In article <5638@swan.ulowell.edu>, arosen@eagle.ulowell.edu (MFHorn) writes: > powerful" is pretty moot, since tcsh (much more powerful than DCL or C-shell) > is PD, and (PD) GNU's 'M-x shell' both make better CLIs. Oh yeah, M-x shell > doesn't work in GNU under VMS. Sorry. Hmmn, tcsh may be PD, but you need source to csh to compile it. If you have a different version that doesn't require or include proprietary code, then send me a copy. Where is GNU Emacs shell described? (can I run vi under it :-) > And, monocase is intolerable. So is forcing every file name to have at > least one "." in it. So is needing to set up a symbol to pass command line > parameters to a C program. So is limiting command history to 20. Agreed > So is > not having any games :-) What! Your user's haven't written any yet :-) -- Darin Johnson (...ucbvax!sun!sunncal!leadsv!laic!darin) (...lll-lcc.arpa!leadsv!laic!darin) All aboard the DOOMED express!