JMS%uamis@JVAX.CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU (The Dollar's Still Strong in Nebraska) (04/03/88)
(I don't know if this counts as advertising, since DECUS is a Not-For-Profit organization, and it doesn't cost anything to join, and since every issue of the newsletter appears to be produced at a loss... But here goes anyway:) Do you use Digital Equipment Corporation products? Does your JOB require that you get the most PRODUCTIVITY possible out of your Digital Systems? If so.... Read On! Are you a VAX Systems Manager that needs to know the VAX Architecture Subset Rules? Are you a DATATRIEVER who needs help on the care and feeding of RMS files? Would you like information on Protocol comparisons in the graphics standards area? Do you need some hints on how to tailor ALL-IN-1 for your own needs? Do you want to let Digital know what you think and find out if they think along the same lines? Do you want to know anything about the use of Digital's computer products and just don't know where to go for the answers? Maybe you don't have any of these above needs now, but what happens when these questions or any like them arise? Where do you go for the answers? The answers are in the SIGs NEWSLETTER - a monthly publication of the DECUS Special Interest Groups. DECUS, the Digital Equipment Computer Users Society, is the largest computer society focused on one vendor's products - those of Digital Equipment Corporation. Through the SIGs Newsletter, which has a worldwide distribution, you can find solutions to existing problems, find other users who share your interests, influence the direction Digital future releases take and much more! Send for your subscription form today! For only $35.00 you will receive twelve monthly issues of the Newsletter. Write to DECUS, SIGs Newsletter, 219 Boston Post Road, BPO2, Marlboro, MA 01752. ============================================================= +----------------------------+ BITNET: jms@arizmis.BITNET |Joel M Snyder | Inter: jms@mis.arizona.edu |Univ of Arizona Dep't of MIS| Phone: 602.621.2748 ICBM: 32 13 N / 110 58 W |Tucson, AZ 85721 | Quote: "Design is everything. +----------------------------+ Implementation is trivial."
rrk@byuvax.bitnet (04/11/88)
Sorry to disillusion you...
DECUS is NOT a non-profit organization. It is heavily subsidized by DEC
for the sole purpose of advancing DEC. DECUS contributions are NOT a tax
writeoff for DEC, and that is why membership is free. DECUS chapters are
very restricted by DEC as to what they can and can not allow to be presented
in LUG meetings, and since LUGS aren't even allowed DEC funds to pay for
mailings, they get nothing for their existence as official LUGS except lots
of restrictions and an occasional tape distribution, which they could get
for free anyway by contacting the right people. The hassle of the LUG
librarian to send his own tape to get a copy of the latest stuff is often
as great as it would be if he were not the librarian of an official LUG.
So why be an official LUG? In my opinion (I'd enjoy hearing others) it
is a lot better to not be official. Individual members can still be national
DECUS members (and still for free) and the unofficial LUG can have other
sales people visit (besides DEC's) to better serve the needs of the members.
Does anyone still seriously contend that DEC has ALL the answers, or has
them NOW?
AMMON::RAYcetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) (04/16/88)
In article <95rrk@byuvax.bitnet> rrk@byuvax.bitnet writes: >Sorry to disillusion you... sorry to disillusion you - but I'd expect more from someone from the same area where I ran IMALUG for several years..... > >DECUS is NOT a non-profit organization. It is heavily subsidized by DEC subsidized yes, heavily, hmm, not really. And half the gov't treats DECUS as non-profit, part doesn't. For at least half my tenure as LUG chair here in Utah, the USPS allowed non-profit newsletter rates. >very restricted by DEC as to what they can and can not allow to be presented DEC doesn't even care about LUG meetings - I had several LUG meetings with local SLC sales people, AND sales reps from EMULEX and SI at the SAME time. >in LUG meetings, and since LUGS aren't even allowed DEC funds to pay for >mailings, they get nothing for their existence as official LUGS except lots yep, DEC won't give a penny for mailings - but DECUS will pay the entire mailing and production costs. >So why be an official LUG? In my opinion (I'd enjoy hearing others) it >is a lot better to not be official. Individual members can still be national >DECUS members (and still for free) and the unofficial LUG can have other >sales people visit (besides DEC's) to better serve the needs of the members. WOW, wake up and smell the roses, if offical lugs were so bad, why does Utah still have 2-3 or them? Must be LOTS of people who disagree with you. -ed cetron center for engineering design Univ of Utah (The University) former-chair IMALUG
davidli@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Dave Meile) (04/18/88)
In article <95rrk@byuvax.bitnet> rrk@byuvax.bitnet writes: >Sorry to disillusion you... > >DECUS is NOT a non-profit organization. It is heavily subsidized by DEC >for the sole purpose of advancing DEC. My understanding is that DECUS is funded by revenues generated from such things as Seminars and Symposiums and Library sales. It is true that DEC provides demonstration equipment and people as resources for these things, but declaring it as "DEC's advance men" does a disservice to those who volunteer their time and efforts to DECUS. > DECUS chapters are >very restricted by DEC as to what they can and can not allow to be presented >in LUG meetings, and since LUGS aren't even allowed DEC funds to pay for >mailings, they get nothing for their existence as official LUGS except lots >of restrictions and an occasional tape distribution, which they could get >for free anyway by contacting the right people. As former Chair and Principal Instigator of our own Local User Group (MNvax), I must disagree. DEC has no say in what we can and cannot present at LUG meetings. Certain bylaws of DECUS prevent things such as sales pitches at meetings -- including sales pitches by DEC. LUG meetings revolve around the needs of the members who attend them, not the needs of DEC (or of DECUS, for that matter). Those few restrictions placed upon us by the national DECUS are not impossible to live with. There *is* a mechanism within the LUG Organization as a whole to obtain funds for mailings (NOT from DEC --but then DEC is NOT DECUS...get that through your head). > the unofficial LUG can have other >sales people visit (besides DEC's) to better serve the needs of the members. Perhaps this is your view of what a user group should be, but I would find listening to a sales pitch "en masse" pretty boring. Most of our general meetings at MNvax do not revolve around a particular product in the first place. For example, our last meeting was a discussion of Project Management, and the meeting coming up will cover networking on a wide scale. -- Dave Meile
rrk@byuvax.bitnet (04/19/88)
It is very interesting to hear the point of view expressed by Ed Centron.
It appears that his experiences in running a LUG were very different from
mine in the VAX LUG in Phoenix. I would be very interested in knowing how
he convinced DECUS to pay for newsletter mailings (yes, I intended to say
DECUS instead of DEC, but the two are very similar at the national level).
We were quite astonished that they didn't even allow for that in the budget.
After hassling for a while, we came to the conclusion (after they stopped
sending tapes and required us to send our own tapes to be copied) that there
was nothing that we could possibly put into our buget that the national
DECUS would cover, although the DEC local office stepped in and offered
to cover our newsletter costs, but that was only after DECUS refused.
The LUG in Phoenix had a large enough following to support about eight local
SIG's, if I remember correctly. It was a very good group of people. So
is the much smaller group in Utah Valley, in which I haven't had time to become
as active. I certainly did not intend to knock the LUG. It is only the
letters we received in Phoenix warning us that as an extension of DECUS,
we were not allowed to give time to non-DEC sales personell that concerned
me as to how much we really had to lose by becoming disassociated with the
national organization. My real interest in hearing from people with other
opinions would be in hearing what, if anything the national organization
can provide for the LUG. Maybe this should move to the DECUS newsgroup.
I also wonder why DECUS would pay newsletter costs for some groups and not
for others. Why they would restrict some and not others. I failed to hear
in the previous posting about any advantages but postage, which in my time on
the Arizona VAX LUG they repeatedly refused to pay. I've got a lot of positive
things to say about the LUGs. But none of it seemed to come from the national
organization.
Also, when I referred to heavy subsidizing, I just meant that I was not
aware of anyone else who contributed at the national level, not that they
necessarily gave large sums of money. Sorry, I should have been more clear.
I felt that it was questionable to call THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION non-profit
when the sole contributor was DEC, who also claims sole right to product
demos, presentations, etc.
Maybe your LUG gets away with lots of things not sanctioned by the national
organization. Yours isn't the only one. As I said before, what is there
to be lost?
AMMON::RAY
THESE ARE ONLY MY OWN VIEWS, NATURALLYctp@ut-sally.UUCP (Clyde T. Poole) (04/19/88)
In article <95rrk@byuvax.bitnet> rrk@byuvax.bitnet writes: >Sorry to disillusion you... > >DECUS is NOT a non-profit organization. It is heavily subsidized by DEC >for the sole purpose of advancing DEC. DECUS contributions are NOT a tax >writeoff for DEC, and that is why membership is free. Yes, DEC subsidizes DECUS but, membership is free because DECUS wants it to be free. The Symposia that are held twice a year pay for most of the things a membership fee would support. > DECUS chapters are >very restricted by DEC as to what they can and can not allow to be presented >in LUG meetings, and since LUGS aren't even allowed DEC funds to pay for >mailings, they get nothing for their existence as official LUGS except lots >of restrictions and an occasional tape distribution, which they could get >for free anyway by contacting the right people. In what way are DECUS chapters limiting what LUGs can do? As far as I know, the only restriction is the Commercialism Policy that esentially says that DECUS is a "technical" society and that presentations that are nothing more that sales pitches are not allowed. Most LUGs allow presentations by vendors other that Digital as long as they are technical and that any sales pitches are to made individuals at some time other than the meeting. Also, most LUGs have their mailings subsidized by the local Digital office. I doubt that an unofficial LUG would get that support. > The hassle of the LUG >librarian to send his own tape to get a copy of the latest stuff is often >as great as it would be if he were not the librarian of an official LUG. True. But when someone other than the LUG librarian gets a tape copy it is because some LUG librarian went to that trouble. > >So why be an official LUG? In my opinion (I'd enjoy hearing others) it >is a lot better to not be official. Individual members can still be national >DECUS members (and still for free) and the unofficial LUG can have other >sales people visit (besides DEC's) to better serve the needs of the members. >Does anyone still seriously contend that DEC has ALL the answers, or has >them NOW? Granted the advantages of being an licensed LUG are not very clear. As far as I know you only get the following: right to use the DECUS logo, right to get a copy of the symposia tape(s), the ability to ask for funds from the National LUG Council (NLC) and the ability to pre-order symposia session notes. It is likely that the advantages of being licensed will increase in the next few years. For example, it is possible that the items currently sold in the DECUS store at symposia will be made available for pre-order by the LUGs. > AMMON::RAY In any case, why are you mad at DECUS? ----- Clyde T. Poole, Technical Coordinator, Facilities and Equipment (in real life) DECUS U. S. Chapter, VAX and LS SIG, Newsletter Editor (in my spare time) ARPA/CSnet: ctp@cs.utexas.edu VOICE: (512) 471-9551 UUCP: {harvard,ihnp4,uunet}!ut-sally!ctp CIS: 75226,3135 Overland: UT at Austin, Department of Computer Sciences Taylor Hall 2.124, Austin, TX 78712-1188 "Life Is A Bitch ... And Then You Die"
OBERMAN@ICDC.LLNL.GOV ("Kevin Oberman, LLNL, 422-6955, L-156", 415) (04/21/88)
>DECUS is NOT a non-profit organization. It is heavily subsidized by DEC >for the sole purpose of advancing DEC. DECUS contributions are NOT a tax >writeoff for DEC, and that is why membership is free. DECUS chapters are >very restricted by DEC as to what they can and can not allow to be presented >in LUG meetings, and since LUGS aren't even allowed DEC funds to pay for >mailings, they get nothing for their existence as official LUGS except lots >of restrictions and an occasional tape distribution, which they could get >for free anyway by contacting the right people. The hassle of the LUG >librarian to send his own tape to get a copy of the latest stuff is often >as great as it would be if he were not the librarian of an official LUG. > >So why be an official LUG? In my opinion (I'd enjoy hearing others) it >is a lot better to not be official. Individual members can still be national >DECUS members (and still for free) and the unofficial LUG can have other >sales people visit (besides DEC's) to better serve the needs of the members. >Does anyone still seriously contend that DEC has ALL the answers, or has >them NOW? As a former LUG chairman (LLNLLUG), I was very suprised by some of the statements made in this posting. 1. DECUS is subsidized by DEC. It's non-profit status is rather fuzzy. In some respects it is treated as non-profit. On others it is not. Call your local CPA for further obfuscation. 2. It is not what I call heavily subsidized. The vast portion of the DECUS annual budget is generated by DECUS activities, mostly the US symposia. 3. There are some official limits on what ANYONE can present in a DECUS LUG meeting. LUGs are not intended to be sales forums for DEC or anyone else. That does not mean we can't (and don't) have sales representatives from various vendors attending LUG meetings and making presentations. We do prohibit the presentation of price and delivery information at the meetings, but have no problem with queries about those items after we adjourn. And we apply this rule to DEC as well. One of the stongest points made by the National LUG Organization when we formed our LUG was that we should not allow DEC to turn us into an arm of their sales organization. 4. DECUS provides funds for the printing and distribution of a LUG newsletter. With a membership of about 200 and a typical newsletter of about 40 pages, this is not insignificant. 5. People can find an official LUG. I have received many calls from interested parties who get my name from the DECUS office. If you are not an official LUG, how are those who buy DEC equipment ever supposed to find you? Clearly, my vote is for an official LUG. R. Kevin Oberman Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Internet: oberman@icdc.llnl.gov (415) 422-6955 Disclaimer: Don't take this too seriously. I just like to improve my typing and probably don't really know anything useful about anything. And I may be biased, too. -------
d2b@rayssd.ray.com (Donald A. Borsay) (04/29/88)
[To set matters straight, I also disapproved of DECUS using the public network to advertise it's product (i.e. the Newsletter service), but did agree with most of the content of the "advertisement".] In article <95rrk@byuvax.bitnet> rrk@byuvax.bitnet writes: >Sorry to disillusion you... > >DECUS is NOT a non-profit organization. It is heavily subsidized by DEC >for the sole purpose of advancing DEC. DECUS contributions are NOT a tax >writeoff for DEC, and that is why membership is free. Sure, DECUS is a for-profit organization, but not because of DEC subsidy, for better organizational stability. DEC not only foots the bill for a lot of DECUS activity, but also supports those activities with lots of internal representation at national and LUG meetings. To paraphrase the operating principles somewhat, the goal of DECUS is to: (1) advance the effective utilization of DEC products by promoting the interchange of information concerning their uses; (2) advance the art of computation through mutual education; (3) administrate a software library of user contributions; and (4) give feedback to DEC on current or future products. Either I'm missing something, or nowhere in these by-laws does DECUS let DEC sell their products. >DECUS chapters are very restricted by DEC as to what they can and can not >allow to be presented in LUG meetings, and since LUGS aren't even allowed >DEC funds to pay for >mailings, they get nothing for their existence as >official LUGS except lots of restrictions and an occasional tape >distribution, which they could get for free anyway by contacting the right >people. The hassle of the LUG librarian to send his own tape to get a copy >of the latest stuff is often as great as it would be if he were not the >librarian of an official LUG. Wow! Seems like you got tangled up with the wrong DECUS LUG! The Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts DECUS Local Users Group (CRIMLUG) has had presentations from LUG memebers, DEC, and third party vendors. In all cases, the information demonstrated "effective utilization of DEC products" (i.e. PCs, PDPs, and VAXen). DEC supports us through technical presentations, new product information, and facilities. DECUS supplies the list of DECUS members in our area, SIG tape distribution, as well as funds for printing and mailing of our LUG newsletter. >Does anyone still seriously contend that DEC has ALL the answers, or has >them NOW? Oh sure, that's why we have Suns, Apollos, Macs, PCs, HP, Pyramid, as well as lot's of VAXen and PDPs at our local division. There is so much to keep up with in the DEC marketplace, never mind the third party value-added DEC marketplace. I couldn't even imagine our LUG attempting to cover the above vendors offerings as well... -- Don |Raytheon Company, Submarine Signal Division, Portsmouth, RI Borsay |ARPAnet: d2b%rayssd.RAY.COM@a.cs.uiuc.edu |UUCPmail: {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus!raybed2}!rayssd!d2b
SEYMOUR@phast.phys.washington.EDU (05/19/88)
specifically re: other vendors not able to present at Offical LUG meetings; we often have non-dec vendors present technical topics at our meetings. one memorable meeting had 4 competing disk defragmenter rep's give 12 minute "how we do it" talks, with q+a (and complaints and user experiences) after each and after all. all that the DECUS Canons of Conduct limits is a quoting of prices or other specifically solicitation-of-business activities. describing (in as neutral a sense as possible) HOW your product works (which may inherently include "why it's best" by detailing how your solutions address problems found with competing products) is perfectly acceptable. discussion of delivery, terms, rebates, incentives, etc. are not. (unless, of course, the topic of the meeting was a generic "how to sell stuff") the Canons of Conduct (and Bylaws) are periodically published in the DECUS newsletter(s) (the best $35 you can spend per year) and the semi-annual symposia program announcements. then attend a few meetings and see how they're not really a barrier to information flow. (also, DEC has always (at least since 1972) stated -- and demonstrated -- that they recognize DECUS as an important conduit of customer input to the plans and actions of the company. two memorable examples were: DEC asking VAX people (in 1980, i think) "how many would buy a G/H floating point improvement" ... in a room with about 1000 sites represented over 400 rose their hands -- the product appeared. the second example was when DEC announced their "new software license policy" involving the non-transferral of licenses with machines. i pity the poor DEC person who made that presentation at DECUS. after a fascinating barrage of letters, comments, polls, etc., the policy was effectively rescinded.) i apologize for not preceding this with a *** FLAME ON ***, but got carried away. DECUS and the contacts it provides have always repaid whatever investments we have made to it well more than ten-fold. -- dick seymour
OBERMAN@ICDC.LLNL.GOV ("Kevin Oberman, LLNL, 422-6955", 415) (07/06/88)
>Received: by ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (5.59/1.28) id AA01549; Thu, 5 May 88 13:10:23 > PDT >Received: from USENET by ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU with netnews for > info-vax@kl.sri.com (info-vax@kl.sri.com) (contact usenet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU > if you have questions) >Date: 18 Apr 88 19:04:19 GMT First off, where the **** did this message disappear to? It was mailed back on APRIL 18 and arrived at UCBVAX on July 5. I think US Snail is gfaster than that. Ray's experiences with DECUS are so totally at variance with my own that I am completely baffled to understand them. The NLO pays for both printing and mailing costs for newsletters. In fact, the form to apply for this is included in the standard LUG re-licensing package each year. It SPECIFICLY asks how many newsletters are planned for the year and the cost of printing and mailing of each. Not a whole lot of `talking into' there. Never have I received any `warning' about having presentations on other companies products, although the local DEC sales people don't look too happy when EMC2 is in talking about memory. We do insist that the presentations remain technical and not be sales pitches, but this has never caused any of the third party sales people any problem. They just pull any slides with pricing or other non-technical information and go ahead. And, the idea that DEC has special rights is also not supported by the NLO. A LUG is not an arm of Digital sales. While the charter gives DEC special rights to run exhibits at symposia, it doesn't make any special rights as regards the LUG. In fact, the NLO, at sessions on LUG organization at US Symposia has made a big point that a LUG must NOT allow DEC sales people to use the LUG as a sales office. My concern is that Ray received this totally inaccurate information from someone in the DECUS office. Clearly they are not quoting the correct information and I would hate to see other local groups leave the national organization because someone at the national DECUS office didn't know what he/she was talking about. R. Kevin Oberman Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Internet: oberman@icdc.llnl.gov (415) 422-6955 Disclaimer: Don't take this too seriously. I just like to improve my typing and probably don't really know anything useful about anything.