[comp.os.vms] DECwindows: does it use DECnet, TCP or both?

abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) (01/17/89)

Does anyone know what underlying byte stream protocol DECwindows
uses? I assume that it uses DECnet, but what about TCP? How would I
use it in a network with X on Suns, etc?

art stine
sr network engineer
clarkson u

meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) (01/17/89)

In article <2017@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) writes:
>
>Does anyone know what underlying byte stream protocol DECwindows
>uses? I assume that it uses DECnet, but what about TCP? How would I
>use it in a network with X on Suns, etc?

You use Wollongong TCP/IP, or Process Software's version, or something
like that. We have the 1st of these, and other than installation (which
was done by a 3rd party who shall remain nameless for now), we have no
problem with it. Only 1 caveat. You can't use rsh or rcp if the VAX
is running VMS unless it is also running Eunice. grrr...

-Miles

karlton@decwrl.dec.com (Philip Karlton) (01/17/89)

In article <2017@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) writes:
>
>Does anyone know what underlying byte stream protocol DECwindows
>uses? I assume that it uses DECnet, but what about TCP? How would I
>use it in a network with X on Suns, etc?

Ultrix DECwindows supports both TCP/IP and DECnet transport. The DECwindows
applications should run just fine using a server on any machine that
supports the X protocol and has all the appropriate fonts installed
on it.

PK
-- 
	Philip L.  Karlton, DEC Western Software Lab, Palo Alto, CA
		karlton@wsl.dec.com
		WSL::KARLTON
		415 853 6684

dsmith@oregon.uoregon.edu (Dale Smith) (01/17/89)

In article <2017@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>, abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) writes:
> Does anyone know what underlying byte stream protocol DECwindows
> uses? I assume that it uses DECnet, but what about TCP? How would I
> use it in a network with X on Suns, etc?

As I am sure you have seen, DECwindows v1 on VMS will only support 
DECnet as a network transport facility.  I had a long conversation with
the DECwindows/VMS/ULTRIX folks at fall DECUS about TCP/IP support for
VMS DECwindows and it looks abysmal.  As far as I could find out, DEC's
position on this is that they are now offering a TCP/IP product for VMS
and that is what they are going to use.  However, they would make no
committment to provide a *fully functional* TCP/IP implementation for
VMS, nor provide the hooks for third parties to provide a transport
mechanism for VMS DECwindows.  So, if you are running WIN/TCP, Fusion,
etc., and want to run DECwindows (v2) over TCP/IP, it looks like you'll
be out of luck.  Your choices will be to toss your TCP/IP and get DEC's
TCP/IP (with no named, gated, finger, timed, ...etc.....) or to not run 
DECwindows over TCP/IP.    GGGGGGGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Dale Smith
Asst. Director of Network Services	Internet: dsmith@oregon.uoregon.edu
University of Oregon			BITNET: dsmith@oregon.bitnet
Computing Center			UUCP: ...hp-pcd!uoregon!dsmith
Eugene, OR  97403-1212			Voice: (503)686-4394

jqj@oregon.uoregon.edu (J Q Johnson) (01/17/89)

In article <2599@decuac.DEC.COM>, avolio@decuac.dec.com writes:
> DECwindows on ULTRIX supports TCP/IP and DECnet, naturally.  DECwindows on
> VMS supports DECnet only *in version 1*.

And indications are that in later versions DECwindows on VMS will
support TCP *only* using DEC's TCP/IP protocol stack, not 3rd party TCP
implementations such as Wollongong's.  I consider this corporate
direction totally unacceptable.

avolio@decuac.dec.com (Frederick M. Avolio) (01/18/89)

In article <2017@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) writes:
>
>Does anyone know what underlying byte stream protocol DECwindows
>uses? I assume that it uses DECnet, but what about TCP? How would I
>use it in a network with X on Suns, etc?
>
>art stine
>sr network engineer
>clarkson u

Gak, cough, gasp, ack, ack...  Sorry.

DECwindows on ULTRIX supports TCP/IP and DECnet, naturally.  DECwindows on
VMS supports DECnet only *in version 1*.

Fred

arosen@hawk.ulowell.edu (MFHorn) (01/18/89)

> >Does anyone know what underlying byte stream protocol DECwindows
> >uses?
> 
> You use Wollongong TCP/IP, or Process Software's version, or something
> like that

Does anyone know if it will work with CMU's or Excelan's package?
What version(s) of DECwindows support TCP/IP?

--
Andy Rosen           | arosen@hawk.ulowell.edu | "I got this guitar and I
ULowell, Box #3031   | ulowell!arosen          |  learned how to make it
Lowell, Ma 01854     |                         |  talk" -Thunder Road
		RD in '88 - The way it should've been

iglesias@orion.cf.uci.edu (Mike Iglesias) (01/18/89)

I seem to remember at the local DECworld '88 when they introduced
DECwindows they said that the sources would be available for some
nominal charge (media cost).  Seems like some adventurous people could
get the sources, make them work with their favorite flavor of
TCP/IP (hopefully DEC TCP/IP has BSD-style socket libraries), and
then post the changes or whatever.

I'm certainly not going to switch to DEC TCP/IP unless it has
gated, named, et al, like WIN/TCP does.  And even if it did, I
might not...


Mike Iglesias
University of California, Irvine

meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) (01/19/89)

In article <169@oregon.uoregon.edu> jqj@oregon.uoregon.edu (J Q Johnson) writes:
>In article <2599@decuac.DEC.COM>, avolio@decuac.dec.com writes:
>> DECwindows on ULTRIX supports TCP/IP and DECnet, naturally.  DECwindows on
>> VMS supports DECnet only *in version 1*.
>
>And indications are that in later versions DECwindows on VMS will
>support TCP *only* using DEC's TCP/IP protocol stack, not 3rd party TCP
>implementations such as Wollongong's.  I consider this corporate
>direction totally unacceptable.

Given that DEC is finally beginning to get serious (IMO) about competing
in the real world workstation market (the new 3100 (I think) line), maybe
they will begin to listen if we ALL YELL at them about this. Accost your
local DEC marketing rep today.

-Miles

(My opinions/suggestions/emotions/frogs are my own)

avolio@decuac.dec.com (Frederick M. Avolio) (01/19/89)

Well, not speaking officially of course....  TCP/IP is TCP/IP.  Okay, this
is a lie, but you know what I mean.  If the stuff runs on top of TCP/IP
it'll run on TWG's or DEC's, no?  I really dont think that something special
will be done to disallow anyone else's version as a transport.

On TCP/IP support from Digital...  It has been publically stated that while
V1.0 of VMS/ULTRIX Connection (shouldbe VMS/NFS Connection or  VMS/IP Conn...)
doesnt support telnet, the r* commands, nor smtp, telnet is planned
for the next version.  SMTP is being looked at.  Everything else is there,
basically.

Fred

avolio@decuac.dec.com (Frederick M. Avolio) (01/19/89)

Now we're getting somewhere... :-)  As I think I mentioned earlier, DECWINDOWS
on VMS in the current announced version only supports DECnet.  DECwindows under
ULTRIX (X11, plus the XUI stuff, etc etc) supports both

Fred

willis@mcnc.org (Dr. William E. Willis Jr.) (01/19/89)

DECWindows for VMS is supposed to support TCP/IP connections through their
flavor of TCP/IP in the second release of DECWindows. ( I have seen it working)

Bill Willis

Obviously this doesn't constitute an announcement just a rumor

JONESD@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) (01/20/89)

The key to determining how easily third party TCP/IP packages can be
integrated into DECWindows depends upon how DEC did the interface to
the VMS X server. If the interface employs a pseudo-device driver that
simply passes the X11 protocol stream to/from the server via QIO's, it's a
trivial problem.  A pseudo-device that merely provides graphics primitives
would make writing your own network interface much more difficult.

If the DECWindows interface uses the latter method but provides a library
for protocol conversion on the server side (the client side has it or
no one would be able to write applications), then a roll-your-own network
server is doable with a fair amount of work.

Is there anybody who has worked with the DECWindws development kit who
can comment on this (the product has been announced, after all!).

David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929
Ohio State Unviversity       |      Internet:
1971 Neil Ave. Rm. 406       |               jonesd@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu
Columbus, OH 43210           |               jones-d@eng.ohio-state.edu

Disclaimer: A repudiation of a claim.

dan@sparkles.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Dan Trottier) (01/20/89)

In article <2600@decuac.DEC.COM> avolio@decuac.dec.com (Frederick M. Avolio) writes:
>Well, not speaking officially of course....  TCP/IP is TCP/IP.  Okay, this
>is a lie, but you know what I mean.  If the stuff runs on top of TCP/IP
>it'll run on TWG's or DEC's, no?  I really dont think that something special
>will be done to disallow anyone else's version as a transport.
>
>On TCP/IP support from Digital...  It has been publically stated that while
>V1.0 of VMS/ULTRIX Connection (shouldbe VMS/NFS Connection or  VMS/IP Conn...)
>doesnt support telnet, the r* commands, nor smtp, telnet is planned
>for the next version.  SMTP is being looked at.  Everything else is there,
>basically.

Yeah right!

As long as the room is called a kitchen then it's a kitchen. Of course there
is no fridge or stove but you do have a sink with a window over it so it's
basically all there isn't it? Of course if want to cook food then you have to 
buy our stove and our fridge and these appliances will only cook the food
that you buy from us but hey you can eat can't you.

Perhaps if DEC can see the light and provide facilities to work within an
environment instead of insisting that it define the environment they might
sell a few more VMS based machines. I have nothing against DEC hardware, it
runs our 4.3bsd just fine.

I happen to think those r* commands along with smtp and telnet are necessary
for a properly integrated environment. I guess DEC and I have opposing views.

-- 
Dan Trottier                                            dan@maccs.McMaster.CA
Dept of Computer Science                       ...!uunet!utai!utgpu!maccs!dan
McMaster University                                      (416) 525-9140 x3444

ws30@zgdvda.UUCP (Apollo WS30 Workstation) (01/26/89)

I want to know if anybody is adapting the sources of the ARC facility
for VMS 4.6 or later. The original sources are distributed and written
by Howard Chu. He can be reached via
hyc@math.las.umich.edu
or similar addresses.
So if anyone out there is doing this job I would be glad to get a 
message. I need them to have it a bit easier to keep up with all that
new software distributed via nets.
Thanks a lot in advance,
   Matthias Pfuetzner

Please reply to:
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