dcarver@bsadrc.UUCP (Darrel R. Carver) (01/27/89)
Anyone working on a port of this package? It would seem to be a canidate for replacing wmgr, smgr and relatives (look ma, source!). I have just started looking at the package as it came through comp.sources.unix. I have not looked at the code real throughly yet, however. Anyone else scanned it closely? Opinions are welcome... -- Darrel R Carver - A clever quote goes here. Have we got any in CommTek Publishing Company - the unquotable quotes? Vienna, Va 22180 - uunet!bsadrc!drc - Mr. Bear
alex@umbc3.UMBC.EDU (Alex S. Crain) (01/28/89)
In article <124@bsadrc.UUCP> dcarver@bsadrc.UUCP (Darrel R. Carver) writes: >Anyone working on a port of this package? It would seem to be a >canidate for replacing wmgr, smgr and relatives (look ma, source!). I scanned through MGR awile ago (its been available from bellcore for some time) and regected it because: 1) It's pretty sun specific. getting it to run on a 3b1 would probably mean building it *over* the existing interface (Yeech!). 2) I'm not sure that it would buy you anything. There are almost no tools available for it and you would lose the existing 3b1 tools (texview, etc), in exchange for a nicer programming interface. little or no gain for alot of work. 3) because of 2, I doubt that there would be a mass interest in it among unix-pc'rs. lack of support means that few clinets would be written, which would dampen support, a vicious circle. Admittedly, there is not much in the way of alternatives. I have been tossing around an idea, though: The X server could be ported to the 3b1 pretty easily. the mfb code is straight forward, and with the lowlevel access available, it could even run fast. I expand: The two hard parts of the server port are the screen/kbd/mouse interface and the socket code. The first is not trivail, but its not too painful either. One could allocate a signal (say SIGWIND) and rework the keyboard driver to write into some shared memory and generate a signal on input. Add a listening deamon that would listen for IPC on some kind of port setup (ala more shared memory) and generate a SIGWIND on input. Use semaphores as queuing flags, and have the X server wait on SIGWIND for an event. On an event, the X server reads the shared segment, processes the event, and goes back to sleep. Ironically, this is far superior to the existing sun code, which loops doing non-blocking reads (barf!). So if its so easy, why arn't I coding away? well, there's a few issues here. -1) Do this and kiss off everything that uses the existing wmgr. I personally wouldn't miss it, but alot of people use that stuff (like the UA, texview, picture, 3b1tools, even the fancy font for nethack). -2) There is now way that this is not a huge project. the X11R3 distribution and contrib files is right around 100 Mb of source. The X server is a 400Kb+ process that runs all the time. I have no idea how much of it could be stripped out or could stay swapped out, but its still alot of resources. -3) X11 is slow on a VAX, it's got to be pretty slow on a 3b1. -4) 740x320 is pretty small for a windowed environment. On the plus side: 1) I fully intend to put another 2meg in this machine as soon as I can scrape up the bread, and with 4meg RAM, the server should run ok. 2) there's alot of stuff available for X, like Tex and troff previewers, drawing programs, icons, windows with adjustable borders, window managers, etc. 3) X is a great programmers interface (sure beats wrastop()). loads of graphics primitives, neat wiget sets, etc. 4) X is mega popular, and growing. Notice that I did not mention networking. Its my opinion that the 3b1 is not a fast network machine, given the popularity (or lack of) of ethernet cards. I'm sure that those in possesion of such cards feel differently, but for most of us, network means 1200-19200 baud. (nobody runs 300 baud for anything anymore, do they?) I figure that stripped sources would run about 10-20 megabytes, so the multiple drive cards make this somewhat more attractive. Anybody care to comment on the idea? -- :alex Alex Crain Systems Programmer alex@umbc3.umbc.edu Univ Md Baltimore County nerwin!alex@umbc3.umbc.edu (NEW DOMAIN)
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (01/30/89)
In article <1615@umbc3.UMBC.EDU> alex@umbc3.umbc.edu.UMBC.EDU (Alex S. Crain) writes: = The X server could be ported to the 3b1 pretty easily. the mfb code =is straight forward, and with the lowlevel access available, it could even =run fast. I expand: = [ stuff about x-specific coding ] = = So if its so easy, why arn't I coding away? well, there's a few issues =here. = = -1) Do this and kiss off everything that uses the existing wmgr. I =personally wouldn't miss it, but alot of people use that stuff (like the UA, =texview, picture, 3b1tools, even the fancy font for nethack). I'm not too worried about losing the UA stuff. I'd happily kiss-off all the GSS-based graphics stuff to get a REAL windowing environment for this beast. A point though - most of the UA routines are shell-script based, and could probably be moved into an X-windows-based routine without too much hassle. = = -2) There is now way that this is not a huge project. the X11R3 =distribution and contrib files is right around 100 Mb of source. The X server =is a 400Kb+ process that runs all the time. I have no idea how much of it =could be stripped out or could stay swapped out, but its still alot of =resources. = Well, you wanted to upgrade anyway, right? Most people doing serious things with their 3b1's are STARTING at 1 meg, with plans to go higher anyway (is anyone making a nice simple Mem card for this machine? I DONT want to piggy back stuff) = -3) X11 is slow on a VAX, it's got to be pretty slow on a 3b1. = We're used to it. = -4) 740x320 is pretty small for a windowed environment. Ever run Microsoft Windows in CGA mode? Frightening, but functional. = =On the plus side: = = 2) there's alot of stuff available for X, like Tex and troff =previewers, drawing programs, icons, windows with adjustable borders, =window managers, etc. = Bingo. There's a serious lack of GOOD software for this machine (polished, I mean). With all the talk of 'x' floating around, we're goign to be up to our eyeballs in X software, with no way to run it. = = I figure that stripped sources would run about 10-20 megabytes, so =the multiple drive cards make this somewhat more attractive. Anybody care to =comment on the idea? I'm not an officianado of 3b1 programmers, I don't even profess to be a good C programmer. BUT, an X windows handler for the 3b1 would make my year. I'm always trying to talk myself into spending money on this machine, saying its outdated and not keeping up. With an X windows driver, I could sleep easier at night. market, e-mail me and I'll see if I can squeeze it in. +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dave Shevett ~----------------------~ Labyrinth II BBS | | W. Trenton, NJ | Have you made your | ...!mccc!labii!shevett | | (609) 883-9352 | saving throw today? | -------------------- | | 1200/2400 ~----------------------~ 3b1ish and proud of it | +----------------------------------------------------------------+