[unix-pc.general] 3b1 40meg disk woes: Help

kim@mathcs.emory.edu (Kim Wallen {Psy}) (04/21/89)

Help.  I have a 2meg 3B1 with a 40meg disk where the disk
no longer spins.  Power to the disk appears to be ok, but it no longer turns.

A bit of background.  This machine has been used for three years as a 24hr/day
file server and was just recently taken off line.  The machine was
running fine until we stopped it and let it sit for 3 weeks.  When
we went back to turn it on the disk was nonfunctional.  We have
taken the cover off the disk to measure power and to try to spin
the platter, but it won't come back to life.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


Kim Wallen
Psychology Department
Emory University
Atlanta, GA 30322

(404) 727-4125

INTERNET: kim@unix.cc.emory.edu
UUCP: {gatech decvax}!emory!kim
BITNET:  kim@emoryu1

thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (04/23/89)

Sigh.  Kim Wallen recites tales of woe re: his 3B1 with a 40MB HD.

Without wishing to sound prejudiced, I bet his HD is either a Seagate or
a Miniscribe.

Seems it's time again for my bi-weekly "my drive don't spin no more" posting.

It's gotten so bad, I now keep this file in a ram-disk and I have a keyboard
function key dedicated to "M-X insert-file$/ram/seagate.s*cks"    :-)  :-)

I hope the following information helps.

Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]

========================= begin reposted material =========================

Eric Bergan comments about problems with his ST-251 hard drive ...

There are inherent flaws in the design of the ST251 such that the drive motor
will NOT spin due to the arms not coming out of park position (which they enter
upon power-down of the drive).

I have 10 drives (ST251) exhibiting this problem (on several different types
of computers), and hundreds of others are now noticing similar problems with
their ST251 drives.

Following is a compendium of solutions and explanations; the problem is SO
common with Seagate drives (even their new 3.5" puppies) that I keep a file
with stuff like the following to simplify answering your (and others')
questions.  In *MY* opinion, the ONLY good Seagate drive is a dea... oops,
sorry!, re-starting, the only good Seagate drive is the ST-4096 with the
linear arm actuator.

Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]

========================== begin included messages ==========================

From: thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.att
Subject: Re: HELP with 7300 hard disk PLEASE
Date: 1 Nov 88 09:43:22 GMT

Walt Novinger is having problems with his Seagate ST251 ...

Welcome to the club.  But, one question: does the drive SPIN?

Don't laugh.  I have a bunch of ST251 drives that do NOT spin up consistently
and the first time that happened I started sweating icicles.

My first thought was a "bad" controller card (the one that is bolted to the
back of the drives), and I called Seagate Customer Support (in Florida; figure
that one out) and discovered that all Seagate does is exchange drives.  Not
very useful if you want to retrieve data that hasn't been backed up (let THAT
be a lesson!).  Finally, persevered and managed to reach the Manager of QA at
Seagate in Scotts Valley, CA, and was told essentially the same story: they
don't repair drives, wouldn't send me a PC card, and they don't have spare
parts.

By this time, I had already discovered the drive wasn't spinning up.

Being the curious sort, I started examining all aspects of the drive.  Poked
here, prodded there, uttered a few choice epithets, and was seriously
considering the sure-fire-cure: dancing under a full moon in my Jockey shorts
while swinging a dead chicken over my head!  :-)

Well, to make a long story short: I started idly twisting the stepper motor
shaft using an Allen wrench, about 15 degrees each way.  Decided to attempt to
power up the drive one more time before chucking it out the window and over
the fence when, LO!, whi-r-r-r-r-r-r.  It SPUN!   Twisted the shaft of another
one, powered it up, and it, too, spun.

Whew!  Did I back up those disks quickly.

First thing next morning, called Seagate (Scotts Valley) QA Manager and
discussed my findings.  An engineer was consulted and confirmed that the
ST251 drive has "failsafes" to prevent main spindle rotation IF the arms
don't come out of `park' during the power up sequence.

My "twisting" the stepper motor shaft a bit must have loosened up whatever
it was that prevented the arms coming out of park.  Don't know what, since
the drives are normally powered 24 hrs/day, 7 days/week, and they were off
for only a few hours while I was experimenting with other aspects of the
system.

NOW: the interesting thing is, ALL of my ST251 have the same date code: 8707
(a big number stamped alongside the frame).  But I've heard in other newsgroups
of others having problems with the ST251 also, and the solution was the same
"fix."

BE FORWARNED: the "fix" is only temporary.  The ones I still have continue to
exhibit the problem occasionally upon power up.  Once the drives are spinning,
they operate fine.  But I'm really disappointed about these problems and have
switched almost exclusively now to other manufacturers (e.g. Maxtor) though
I am having excellent performance from an ST157N.

As near as I can determine, the problem ONLY exists with the ST251-0  (the
"-0" is often identified by an "MLC-0" sticker); the ST251-1 (also MLC-1)
drives don't (yet) appear to have such a problem (but perhaps it's too early
for the problem to surface).  For reference: the MLC-0 drives are the 39mS
ones and the MLC-1 drives are the 28mS ones.

SUMMARY: twist the stepper motor shaft a wee bit using a dowel, screwdriver,
Allen wrench, whatever), power up the drive and get your data off it ASAP.
As mine have shown, the drives will continue to present problems, so I'd
suggest looking for a replacement HD before yours fails totally.

Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]

From: jbm@uncle.UUCP (John B. Milton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.att
Subject: Re: HELP with 7300 hard disk PLEASE
Date: 1 Nov 88 05:02:51 GMT

In article <1311@plx.UUCP> walt@plx.UUCP (Walt Novinger ) writes:
>My 7300's 40MB Seagate ST251 hard disk suddenly went south the other day,
>and I have to get the data off it, if possible.  I tried running the
>diagnostics disk to test the drive, and it fails on the "recal" test.

Are you absolutely sure it's spinning up? I have heard of drives where the
baking mechanism stickes to the spindle on shutdown and the next time you
power it up, it won't spin up. If it won't spin up, it won't try to move the
heads. One solution was dropthe fron of the machine about 6" to jar it loose.
I don't think I would recomend that. If it is spinning up, then the lack of
recal could be several problems.

Bad logic board on the drive. You should be able to get that board replaced and
still get the data. BE WARNED if you try to send a drive back for service, even
if you mark it to keep the drive part, they will most likely scrap it. The best
solution is to get another drive of the same type, a spline head tool and swap
the board yourself.

The other thing keeping it from recaling might be soft. The diagnostic disk
won't tell you the difference between 1. can't move the head to track 0,
2. can't get a track header on the lowest track, and 3. drive is missing the
drive magic number. It could be that a tiny glitch has dinged the VHB (Volume
Home Block). The bad news is that there isn't much in the way of low level
utilities on the UNIXpc to go patching around with. The interactive device
test is supposed to almost allow some of this, but it won't work for hard disks,
only floppies. My suggestion if you want to see what's REALLY on the disk right
now, is to put it on a PClone and get ahold of one of those super fantanstic
hard drive programs that are out now. One of those should be able to show you
more than you want to know and, at least tell you whether it's a hardware or
magware problem.

John
-- 
John Bly Milton IV, jbm@uncle.UUCP, n8emr!uncle!jbm@osu-cis.cis.ohio-state.edu
(614) h:294-4823, w:764-4272;  MS-DOS is a beautiful flower that smells bad!

From: mrm@sceard.UUCP (M.R.Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.att
Subject: Re: HELP with 7300 hard disk PLEASE
Date: 2 Nov 88 16:42:57 GMT

In article <10743@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>Walt Novinger is having problems with his Seagate ST251 ...
We had the same problems with ST251-0 drives. Twisting the stepper motor shaft
from the underside of the drive with a finger-tip works ok,
and the twisting doesn't have to be more than a few degrees.
I worry about moving the heads from the parked position, but it's better
than going to a backup:-)

From: walt@sixwbn.UUCP (Walt Novinger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.att
Subject: My hard disk works! Thanks to all!
Date: 6 Nov 88 00:05:07 GMT

This is a quick note to all who responded to my plea for help with the
"gone south" drive on my Unix PC.  Several of you (e.g. Thad@cup.portal.com)
suggested gently manipulating the stepper motor -- this did the trick.  What's
even more unbelievable is that when the system rebooted, there were *no*
file system errors!  I guess I've just been livin' right.

Thanks again to all.

Date: Mon, 5 Dec 88 13:29:33 MST
From: Theo De Raadt <uunet!alberta!deraadt>
To: calgary!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
Subject: Re: Hard Disk Choice
In-Reply-To: your article <12023@cup.portal.com>

The drive problem has been encountered with ST251-1's as well. A buddy
has seen it happen to lots of them.

Actually, another friend had a real neat problem. The drive got "stuck",
and he loosened it up, by taking the drive, holding it at the top, and
rotating it. Just a little soft jerk. Then it worked. Of course, each
time he turned it off, same thing. Mine was in the same batch, and it
was loud enough to wake me on morning at 3:00 am in in my bedroom, the
computer being two rooms over.

Needless we replaced those with new 251-1's and have been happy as can
be.
 <tdr.
========================== end of included messages =========================

danl@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (daniel.r.levy) (04/24/89)

In article <17513@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
> Sigh.  Kim Wallen recites tales of woe re: his 3B1 with a 40MB HD.
> 
> Without wishing to sound prejudiced, I bet his HD is either a Seagate or
> a Miniscribe.

$ grep -i miniscribe $A
a Miniscribe.
$

Could you, or anyone else in-the-know, please tell me what the deal is with
the MINISCRIBE.  Some time before I got my unix-pc, I asked on the net about
hard disk problems (having vaguely remembered the exchange which you just
reposted a summary of) and was duly told that indeed, the Seagate ST251 had
a lot of lemons.  And thus, when shopping for my unix-pc, I made damn sure
that it did not have a Seagate in it.  However, it has a 40 MB Miniscribe in it
and now the above allusion to the Miniscribe has me worried, and a little
consternated that I did not hear about the troubles with it as well, if indeed
there are troubles with it at all.  Is MINISCRIBE another Seagate product
under a different name?  Or, has it been having similar difficulties?  (I
note, per the grep above, that the articles you have reposted say nothing
about the MINISCRIBE, other than your own comment.)

I really need to know before it's too late.  Thank you so very much.
-- 
Dan'l Levy                 UNIX(R) mail:  att!ttbcad!levy, att!cbnewsc!danl
AT&T Bell Laboratories
5555 West Touhy Avenue     Any opinions expressed in the message above are
Skokie, Illinois  60077    mine, and not necessarily AT&T's.

wolfer@ihuxy.ATT.COM (Wolfson) (04/26/89)

In article <17513@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
> Sigh.  Kim Wallen recites tales of woe re: his 3B1 with a 40MB HD.
> 

I would be interested in knowing for how many of these cases, the disk
heads were not parked when the machines were shut down. I've said it
before - nothing is guaranteed in this world, but if you EVER shut down
and turn off a unix-pc without first parking the heads, you have to ask
yourself a question -- "Do I feel lucky" ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

P. Wolfson			"###################################
att!ihuxy!wolfer		 ###################################
				 ################"

thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (04/26/89)

Without wishing to cause Daniel Levy too much concern ...

In regards to Miniscribe, I've had two Miniscribe 8438 drives go belly up
on me during the past 5 months (on another computer).  The problem is NOT
a "my drive don't spin" problem; I have these sitting on a shelf in my lab
awaiting further analysis.  Luckily (for me), there are several companies
in this area (Silicon Valley) that do disk drive repair, and I may avail
myself of their services.

Also in regards to Miniscribe: have people forgotten so quickly the HORRIBLE
problems with the IBM PC/AT when it first came out?  The problems were flaky
HDs, and the HDs were those manufactured by Miniscribe.

Miniscribe is located in Longmont, Colorado, and is NOT affiliated with 
Seagate in any way.

Now, on the positive side: I have a Miniscribe 6085 in my 3B1, and it has
operated (almost) flawlessly for 2 years now, at 24 hours/day, 7 days/week.
The "almost" is one sector that "grew bad" one morning; took a few minutes
to fix that problem, and I'll be posting a (lengthy) treatise about sparing
out bad blocks very shortly (I'm presently working 14-16 hours/day in prep
for the DECUS/DEXPO coming up during the 2nd week in May).

In conversation with several companies (the disk drive repair outfits), the
problem with the non-spin Seagate drives is due to "stiction" caused by
excessive chemical lubricant on the plated-media platters during manufacture.
Their (the repair companies') solution is to replace the Seagate media with
"normal" oxide media (for approx. $60 for an ST-251 drive).  The Seagate
stiction problem (lubricant meniscus preventing the heads leaving PARK
position) seems to occur across the board with Seagate's 3-1/2" and 5-1/4"
HDs manufactured using plated-media platters; the older ferric-oxide platter
drives (such as the ST-225 drive) don't exhibit the problem.

Seagate's problem is (was) a lack of proper QA; I understand they've recently
taken steps to improve the situation.

Miniscribe's problem seems to (also) be in the past (but it's a real pisser
when it's one's own drive that exhibits the problem).

As a general note in closing, and this *IS* a general note, I casually asked
some people at the various disk drive repair companies what drives they put
in their OWN computers, and 3 manufacturers' names clearly were in the
majority: Maxtor, Quantum, and Micropolis.  Conner and SONY were also spoken
of highly, but there isn't much "track record" yet.

Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]

danl@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (daniel.r.levy) (04/27/89)

You spoke of two different models of Miniscribe disks.  Which one is the 40
megger?  I haven't yet "raised the hood" on my unixpc to find out, and I'd
rather not unless and until it is necessary.  Thanks.
-- 
Dan'l Levy                 UNIX(R) mail:  att!ttbcad!levy, att!cbnewsc!danl
AT&T Bell Laboratories
5555 West Touhy Avenue     Any opinions expressed in the message above are
Skokie, Illinois  60077    mine, and not necessarily AT&T's.

danl@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (daniel.r.levy) (04/27/89)

> > Sigh.  Kim Wallen recites tales of woe re: his 3B1 with a 40MB HD.
> > 
> 
> 
> I would be interested in knowing for how many of these cases, the disk
> heads were not parked when the machines were shut down. I've said it
> before - nothing is guaranteed in this world, but if you EVER shut down
> and turn off a unix-pc without first parking the heads, you have to ask
> yourself a question -- "Do I feel lucky" ?

From Floryan's explanation, it sounds like the blame lies elsewhere, i.e.,
the heads sticking to the media in park position due to gumming up by the
lubricant, at least for the Seagates.  That wouldn't be due to head crashes.  
For the Miniscribe, that's an unanswered question.

The shutdown message warns the user to park the heads if the machine is going
to be moved.  This would seem to imply that parking the heads is unnecessary
otherwise, though it does sound like a good idea.  When I unpacked the system
software, I could almost swear that in there was a loose sheet stating that
rebooting the diagnostic disk to park the heads was not necessary on the 3B1,
despite the message.  However, looking through my manuals, I can't locate it
now.  I wonder, was I hallucinating or sump'n?

Is there an ioctl() or other trick I can do while the UNIX system is running
to park the disk heads?  It sounds like it would be a good thing to do during
extended idle times.
-- 
Dan'l Levy                 UNIX(R) mail:  att!ttbcad!levy, att!cbnewsc!danl
AT&T Bell Laboratories
5555 West Touhy Avenue     Any opinions expressed in the message above are
Skokie, Illinois  60077    mine, and not necessarily AT&T's.

wjc@ho5cad.ATT.COM (Bill Carpenter) (04/27/89)

In article <586@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> danl@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (daniel.r.levy) writes:

>otherwise, though it does sound like a good idea.  When I unpacked the system
>software, I could almost swear that in there was a loose sheet stating that
>rebooting the diagnostic disk to park the heads was not necessary on the 3B1,
>despite the message.  However, looking through my manuals, I can't locate it

A lot of 7300's shipped with drives that didn't autopark the heads
when powered off.  Thus the message during shutdown about parking
them.  (I defer to others about whether this is needed for shutdowns
when the machine won't be moved.  Couldn't hurt.)

Most (maybe all?) 3b1's shipped with drives that did autopark the
heads on powerdown.  That's why it's not necessary to do it via the
diagnostics disk.  This is a feature of the drive, not the machine.
If you're shopping for a drive, this is definitely a feature you want.
(If your drive makes that big clunk when you hit the power switch,
that's the autopark happening.)
--
--
   Bill Carpenter         att!ho5cad!wjc  or  attmail!bill

jeff@cjsa.WA.COM (Jeffery Small) (04/27/89)

In article <586@cbnewsc.ATT.COM>, danl@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (daniel.r.levy) writes:
> When I unpacked the system
> software, I could almost swear that in there was a loose sheet stating that
> rebooting the diagnostic disk to park the heads was not necessary on the 3B1,
> despite the message.  However, looking through my manuals, I can't locate it
> now.  I wonder, was I hallucinating or sump'n?
> 

I have had many discussions with all manner of support people for the unix-pc
and in all cases it was confirmed that the 40Mb and 67Mb drives on the 3B1
will automatically park their heads.  This is clearly audible on the 67Mb drive
which gives a loud THUNK when you power down.  My Hitachi 40Mb drive is quieter
but you can hear it park too if you listen.

The 10 & 20Mb drives on the UNIX-PC versions must be manually parked with the
diagnostic diskette.
--
Jeffery Small    (206) 485-5596            uw-beaver!uw-nsr!uw-warp
C. Jeffery Small and Associates                                    !cjsa!jeff
19112 152nd Ave NE - Woodinville, WA  98072           uunet!nwnexus

bob@rush.howp.com (Bob Ames) (04/28/89)

In article <2947@ihuxy.ATT.COM> wolfer@ihuxy.ATT.COM (Wolfson) writes:
>
>I would be interested in knowing for how many of these cases, the disk
>heads were not parked when the machines were shut down. I've said it
>before - nothing is guaranteed in this world, but if you EVER shut down
>and turn off a unix-pc without first parking the heads, you have to ask
>yourself a question -- "Do I feel lucky" ?

And I've said it before.  3B1s which still have the original full size disk
that came with their unit DO NOT NEED TO BE PARKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only if you (or someone else) has changed the drive and didn't use the
same type may you need to park the heads when shutting down.

ALL ORIGINAL AT&T 3B1 DRIVES ARE SELF PARKING!  Ever notice the Ker-Chunk
sound when you power off your machine?

BTW:  This is in the 3.51 addendum around the last page, and confirmed
with the hotline that ALL 3B1s are applicable, not just ones running 3.51.

Bob

Bob Ames   The National Organization for  the Reform of Marijuana Laws, NORML 
"Pot is the world's best source of complete protein, alcohol fuel, and paper,
is the best fire de-erosion seed, and is america's largest cash crop." - USDA
bob@rush.cts.com or ncr-sd!rush!bob@nosc.mil  or rutgers!ucsd!ncr-sd!rush!bob
619-743-2546 "We each pay a fabulous price for our visions of paradise," Rush

mark@umbc3.UMBC.EDU (Mark Sienkiewicz) (04/28/89)

In article <17606@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>Also in regards to Miniscribe: have people forgotten so quickly the HORRIBLE
>problems with the IBM PC/AT when it first came out?  The problems were flaky
>HDs, and the HDs were those manufactured by Miniscribe.
>

I remember the PC/AT's.  They came with CMI 20 meg drives that died in
about a year (give or take 6 months) of daily operation.  I have a pile
of these at work.  I never found a Miniscribe in an AT.

The Miniscribes in my Unixpc's still work just fine.

pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (04/29/89)

In article <17606@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
=Also in regards to Miniscribe: have people forgotten so quickly the HORRIBLE
=problems with the IBM PC/AT when it first came out?  The problems were flaky
=HDs, and the HDs were those manufactured by Miniscribe.
=
Are you sure?  I thought that the original flaky AT HDs were CMI drives.

Pete

-- 
Pete Holsberg                   UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh
Mercer College				CompuServe: 70240,334
1200 Old Trenton Road           GEnie: PJHOLSBERG
Trenton, NJ 08690               Voice: 1-609-586-4800