coppi@groucho (Paul Coppi) (07/08/89)
A couple of weeks ago I asked for information on X terminals. Here is a summary of the responses I received. Thanks to all those who replied. Four companies were mentioned: GraphOn, NCD, NCR, and Visual. The name of NCD appeared most often. The consensus appears to be that ethernet X terminals (NCD, NCR, Visual) can match the windowing/display capabilities of workstations. The GraphOn which works over a serial line is a "neat idea" that isn't quite up to snuff yet. Keith McNeill (eplrx7!mcneill@uunet.UU.NET) writes: ==================== We have 2 demo's here right now (an NCR Towerview & an NCD16). The NCD wins hands down. The monitor is the big win on the NCD. It has 1Kx1K screen (that looks rectangular but is really square) that looks pretty sharp. It doesn't look as nice as our 19 sun mono-monitors but it is still pretty good. You can forget the NCR. The NCR monitor has 1024x840 resolution. You can't even fit a whole page from Framemaker on it. It has a PC type keyboard with a real cheap feeling. It's my gut reaction that the NCR is more designed for the office (which is NCR's strong suit in the UNIX market) and the NCD is more of an engineering workstation. Features: NCD -- vt220 type keyboard with good feel 1024x1024 resolution logitech mouse nice screen uses tftp to download fonts server is prom based or downloadable serial or ethernet based prom based approx $2800 downloadable approx $2500 + $500 for server tape..so the $500 gets spread out over all the workstations you buy. NCR -- IBM PC type keyboard with cheap feel 1024x840 resolution logitech mouse fuzzy monitor (may be just the monitor that we got) uses a braindead daemon that you have to run on the serving machine to download fonts. Yes, you would have to add yet another daemon to /etc/rc.local. server is prom based serial or ethernet based approx $3000 By the way: USE XDM to startup X on the Xterminal. Don't bother with the telnet session. It works great! An X-terminal can definitely reproduce the look and feel of a workstation! =================== Robert Brodersen (rbroders@hseq.oracle.com ??) writes: =================== I just went to Xhibition (today), and thus I have some new information. Needless to say Visual and NCD were big stuff, but there is a new guy in the Market with a twist: GRAPHON - the graphon line is to have a VERY dumb terminal (smarter than a VT220, but dumber than your average Xterminal), and put more intelligence on the host. GRAPHON runs a server on the host which translates from the X protocol to a proprietary protocol which amounts to graphics primatives (i.e. lines, circles etc..). The window management type activities are maintained on the host (with lots of virtual memory), and the terminal operates over SERIAL lines! They claim to perform well at speeds down to 2400baud, but I wouldn't want to go under 9600, and their demo was set up at 38400 (and the salesreps didn't know enough about hardware to lower it to 9600 for us to see). They also list at around $1400. Hardware is 14inch with a 12Mhz 68000. The thing performed reasonably well: ico ran okay, plaid was almost bearable, and ordinary text was fine. They admit to being slow at bit images (I couldn't even find xfish on their system). Savings on ethernet wiring could really make this the ticket if your budget is tight. They claim to be 10 times more efficient than the SLIP protocol, but I didn't see any side by side comparison. ===== [Comments from friends who have seen GraphOns: The screen is the same size as the ones in GraphOn vt200/textronix terminals, ie. pretty small. The screen manager is very intelligent, but the result is still a rather slow response. The GraphOn isn't quite a workstation screen replacement. It's cheaper than the alternatives though... ] ========== "Bob" Development Manager, Application Foundation, Oracle Corporation Belmont, CA (computer address lost due to mailer problems -- sorry) writes: =================== Our group has been evaluating several X-terminals for use in our development environment (software). We primarily looked at Visual and Network Computing Devices (NCD) X-terminals. They both are offering 19-inch models in the near future (Visual in July, and NCD in September). We hung these terminals off the ethernet connected to our Sequent (18 80386 processors in a box - very nice) and they performed very well. Our applications were primarily text - large emacs windows, a clock, load averages, some static graphs, but they performed very well. We were even able to play a reasonable game of asteroids (xfish was quite sluggish though). I benchmarked both terminals using xbench (gleaned from comp.x.sources) and they both ran around 8000 X-stones (a Sun-3/50 running untuned MIT X11-R3 := 10000 X-stones). Here is some technical information about the visual offerings: (Greg Bourdon is our Visual Technologies rep, (818) 884-7815) Model 640 (small screen) Model 790 (large screen) ------------------------ ------------------------ 12 Mhz Motorola 68000 CPU 16 Mhz Motorola 68000 CPU 1024 x 768 pixels same 82 Hz interlace refresh rate 68 Hz non-interlaced (aprox. 41 Hz non-interlaced rate) refresh rate 14" display (11" actually used) 19" display (almost that much used) hardware switchable ethernet adaptor software selectable ethernet adaptor 1 Mg Standard RAM/4 Mg Max RAM same No grey scale (stixel instead) same ROM cartridge with 768K of software same (software can also be downloaded) (includes: TCP/IP, executive, Telnet, NFS, server, 5 built in fonts, etc.) $1995.00 list price $2995.00 list price $700.00 per extra mg of RAM same $100.00 per year for upgrades same Available now Between 5 and 10 units available sometime in april. I don't have the technical info on the NCD's, but they are very similar. The 16inch NCD has a 16MHZ 68000 with a special chip to enhance blt copying - this helps text performance somewhat. The 19inch NCD has a 20?MHZ 68020(30?) which should improve performance dramatically due to a wider data path (the special blt chip is no longer needed) - They quoted performance figures in the 20-30,000 X-stone range. =============== Steve Chappelow Systems Programmer EMBA Computer Facility (sc@uvm.edu || uunet!uvm-gen!sc) writes: ========== I've had an NCD xterm for a few months and really like it. They run an MC68000 and download the X server from PROM or the network via tftp. We just got five more. The performance is superior to a sun 3/50, though the keys are a little cheaper. The screen is higher-res, 100+dpi. The video updates are quicker too. The communications overhead seems to be the limiting factor on some operations. I have 1.5 Mega of RAM in mine which is barely enough. The price is under $2000. The address is: NCD 350 North Bernardo Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 (415)694-0650 ============ Finally Mike Harrigan of NCD writes: ================ The NCD16 from Network Computing Devices has been shipping since February 1989. We have shipped over 1000 units to date and have excellent acceptance for the product. The NCD16 has a unique 16" *square* screen with 1024 x 1024 pixel resolution. It uses a 68000 processor with 1.0 to 4.5 MB of RAM. X11 server code is embeddedin PROM or can be downloaded from a network host computer. The NCD16 also includes Ethernet with TCP/IP for communications as well as a serial port. The list price for the NCD16 is $2550 including monitor, keyboard, mouse, ethernet interface, and software. Discounts are available for universities, volume end-users, VARs, and OEMs. If you want more information on the NCD16, please contact us at: Network Computing Devices, Inc. 350 N Bernardo Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 (415) 694-0650 FAX (415) 961-7711 info@ncd.com Sincerely, Mike Harrigan VP Market Development mikeh@ncd.com =============== Hope this helps someone! Paul Coppi (coppi@zeppo.caltech.edu)
klee@gilroy.pa.dec.com (Ken Lee) (07/11/89)
In article <11234@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu>, coppi@groucho (Paul Coppi) writes: > A couple of weeks ago I asked for information on X terminals. > Here is a summary of the responses I received. Thanks to all > those who replied. > > Four companies were mentioned: GraphOn, NCD, NCR, and Visual. Another terminal for sale now is the Acer-Counterpoint. It's real cheap (about $1000), but performance isn't exactly great. Also, I just heard that Tektronix has announced a color X terminal. Sorry, no additional info on that. Several other com
diamant@hpfclp.SDE.HP.COM (John Diamant) (07/17/89)
> Four companies were mentioned: GraphOn, NCD, NCR, and Visual. > The name of NCD appeared most often. The consensus appears > to be that ethernet X terminals (NCD, NCR, Visual) can match the > windowing/display capabilities of workstations. The GraphOn which > works over a serial line is a "neat idea" that isn't quite up to snuff > yet. > > Keith McNeill (eplrx7!mcneill@uunet.UU.NET) writes: > ==================== I think you missed the point on the GraphOn terminals. As an office terminal, I would agree that it isn't quite there (certainly doesn't perform as well as an NCD), but it is really the only one that can work over modems and phone lines with acceptable performance (not as good as at the office, but what do you expect?). I haven't seen anything using SLIP that comes even close to acceptable performance (words like "unusable" come to mind). Personally, I don't consider the Visual 640 (the 14" -- really 11" interlaced version) to be quite there. I haven't seen the NCR, so can't comment, but between the NCD16 and the Visual 640, I'd say the NCD16 is a clear winner. I'd be curious to see the 19" Visual terminal, but the performance and poor quality of the Visual 640 screen really didn't impress us. John Diamant Software Engineering Systems Division Hewlett-Packard Co. Internet: diamant@hpfclp.sde.hp.com Fort Collins, CO UUCP: {hplabs,hpfcla}!hpfclp!diamant Disclaimer: These are my own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of Hewlett-Packard Company.
sridhar@syteka.ARPA (Sridhar Acharya) (07/20/89)
Hi Xperts, I joined the xpert news group recently and missed the "summary on X terminals". If somebody could send me a copy I would aappreciate it. Also my manager is very keen on replacing some individual workstations by X terminals (we have Sun 3/50's and 3/60's connected to a 3/160 server). I am interested to find out about any experiences (good or bad) about using X terminals and how far do they come in substituting the low end workstations. Thanks a bunch. Sridhar Acharya Software Engineer Hughes Lan Systems uucp : sun!sytek!sridhar Internet: sridhar@sytek.hls.hac.com
Link_-_APO@cup.portal.com (07/21/89)
Hello, I would appreciate a copy of the summary on the X terminals. Thank You Sandy Johan link_apo@cup.portal.com (Sandra Johan)
mai@cgdshu.ucar.edu (Andrew Mai) (07/22/89)
In article <20630@cup.portal.com> Link_-_APO@cup.portal.com writes: >Hello, > >I would appreciate a copy of the summary on the X terminals. > >Thank You >Sandy Johan > Me, too. Andy Mai mai@ncar.ucar.edu