wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (06/26/84)
Every few weeks, a netnews reader will post a gripe/request that the readnews software be made more intelligent and aware of which of the postings that went to multiple groups have been seen (or "n"'d) in previous "readnews" sessions. Currently, the software knows only about those postings which have been viewed in the same readnews session. I've seen enough of these requests that I have come to assume that this software change is so widely desired that it is almost inevitable that a future release will include it. I don't want such a change. It would cause trouble. So I think I had better make some reasons against it public, so anyone writing news software will know this is not a universal desire. I view different newsgroups in different fashions. Perhaps few other readers do this, but I cannot believe that I am unique. I pass the contents of some newsgroups on to other people in printed form. To do this, I access some groups by specifying the group name and the "-p" option, direct the output to a file, and then dump that file to a printer for one or more copies. Some of these groups overlap, such as net.audio and net.music.classical. If the software remembered that I had see posting "x" when pulling all the new net.audio messages, and therefore skipped the other copy of posting "x" which was sent to net.music.classical when I try to retrieve all new postings from that group, it would cause me untold bother and trouble to compare the two outputs and locate and specially print the skipped messages. Another situation: I sometimes will deliberately "n" across a posting where the header states it went to several newsgroups, if I would prefer to read that posting in the context of another group. I rely upon the current software's lack of memory across different sessions, so that the same posting will be presented to me again when I am accessing the other newsgroup. (I often look at one or several groups by using the "-n" option, instead of the entire mess in system-determined sequence.) Rather than extend this further, I just want to emphasize that the current lack of memory is truly a feature, not a bug. I would think that implementing more detailed recollection in readnews would force large amounts of data to be stored in .newsrc or another file for each user, an undesirable effect. Therefore, I ask any maintainers/creators of this software to keep in mind the diversity of needs and approaches netnews readers bring with them when running readnews, and not to make "improvements" which will have unforseen negative impacts. Will Martin
alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) (06/27/84)
Anyone who says that readnews should only print articles posted to multiple newsgroups once is running old software and deserves what he gets for not updating. All versions of readnews since 2.? and up have the only-print-once feature in them.
seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (06/28/84)
> I view different newsgroups in different fashions. Perhaps few other > readers do this, but I cannot believe that I am unique. I pass the > contents of some newsgroups on to other people in printed form. To > do this, I access some groups by specifying the group name and the > "-p" option, direct the output to a file, and then dump that file to > a printer for one or more copies. Some of these groups overlap, such > as net.audio and net.music.classical. If the software remembered that > I had see posting "x" when pulling all the new net.audio messages, and > therefore skipped the other copy of posting "x" which was sent to > net.music.classical when I try to retrieve all new postings from > that group, it would cause me untold bother and trouble to compare > the two outputs and locate and specially print the skipped messages. I also forward some groups to a friend. I set up a second .newsrc file and a shell script sets NEWSRC to point to it, runs readnews -p, and starts an 'at' job for the next morning. (when we get 5.2 I can switch to a cron gizmo.) This doesn't interfere with my news at all. > Another situation: I sometimes will deliberately "n" across a posting > where the header states it went to several newsgroups, if I would > prefer to read that posting in the context of another group. I rely > upon the current software's lack of memory across different sessions, > so that the same posting will be presented to me again when I am > accessing the other newsgroup. (I often look at one or several groups > by using the "-n" option, instead of the entire mess in system-determined > sequence.) > > Will Martin This problem is harder to get around. Vnews doesn't always present articles in the group I'd prefer to see them in, but at 1200 baud it beats seeing the same thing twice. (or 3,4,5... times) Perhaps there could be a "present article in all groups posted to" option. Assuming most people only want to see articles once, this should be the default. -- _____ /_____\ Hey, Woodstock, have you seen my sunscreen? /_______\ |___| Snoopy ____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (06/28/84)
[]
I am such a neophyte I feel I am hardly entitled to an opinion.
However I couldn't agree with you less. On two grounds, both of which
depend on the assumption that usenet is slowly sinking under a burden
of congestion and cost which more or less directly relate to total
volume.
1) If we have precise newsgroups and general newsgroups, I see no
excuse for multiple posting. Granted it doesn't <directly> increase
link load, but getting similar arguments and discussions going on
multiple newsgroups generates much duplication of comment, which
flitting back and forth helps clutter up the links. My personal
remedy for this, which I admit is ineffective unless practised by
a majority, is to edit any reply I make to a multiply posted item
so that it (the reply) only goes back to the newsgroup I read the
item on. Along the same line, I think the original idea of having
replies to items on net.genreral automatically go to net.followup
is great. Keeps the clutter on net.general down.
[Allow me to insert a small vote to keep net.general. I find
it usually very small in traffic, compared to most other "general
type newsgroups. I don't mind a few "n's" here 'n there. If I had
to "n" every item on it, my "n" count wouldn't be as large as the one
I develop on most other newsgroups that I'm involved with (e.g.,
sf.lovers, net.music.classical, net.misc., etc <- not a newsgroup :-))]
2) I also disagree with your position which if I recall it right
amounted to: I have an idiosyncratic way in which I like to use netnews.
Please, everyone change your ways so I won't have to change mine.
I don't expect I will persuade many to my position, but I thank
you all for this opportunity to be heard. I am off for two weeks
vacation starting 6/30 so my replies to any replies will be delayed.
Dick Grantges hound!rfglepreau@utah-cs.UUCP (Jay Lepreau) (06/29/84)
Don't be so quick to accuse old software. The point is that readnews doesn't remember already-read articles in mulitple newsgroups across SEPARATE invocations. With the huge volume these days, many of us don't read news "all at once" anymore, but read more important (to us) newsgroups first and more frequently and leave the crud for later. Apparently vnews does handle this. It's a real deficiency in readnews in my opinion.
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (07/02/84)
It is so irksome when someone replies or follows-up, and interprets the original item exactly opposite to what was really said. This follow-up stated that my original posting asked everyone to change to conform with my unusual methodology. What I EXPLICITLY stated in my posting was that I had seen many requests for a change and that I myself did not want this change! NOT, repeat NOT, that I wanted any changes!!!!! Also, that the change may well occur, but I just wanted it known that the desire for it was not universal. This is just the opposite of what R. Grantges said that I said. Good Grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Will Martin
barmar@mit-eddie.UUCP (Barry Margolin) (07/04/84)
Will Martin says that he LIKES the readnews "feature" that articles that are posted to multiple newsgroups can be seen twice if you view the groups in separate readnews invocations, and makes use of it in various ways. I contend that his uses are unusual, and that most users would like duplicate suppression across invocations. However, I would not begrudge him the ability to do what he does; perhaps there should be an option to control this feature (the default being to suppress duplicates). He also mentions that this facility would require adding information to the .newsrc. I guess he wasn't aware that vnews already does it without adding ANY information to the .newsrc. It just looks at the Newsgroup: line, and only shows the message if the current newsgroup is the first group in the list to which the user subscribes. This mechanism has the added benefit that you see all the postings in a chain in the same newsgroup. -- Barry Margolin ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar
jack@vu44.UUCP (07/06/84)
Personally, I would love to see all my newsrc lines updated, since
I read news in little chunks, every time I have nothing to do.
With the current system, this means seeing many articles more
that once.
But, as some people seem to *like* seeing duplicates, how about the
following scheme :
After a 'readnews -n net.wobegon', only the 'net.wobegon' line
in your newsrc is updated.
After an ordinary 'readnews', all lines are updated.
Jack. {philabs|decvax}!mcvax!vu44!jack