karl@osu-eddie.UUCP (12/02/84)
Greetings. I have received quite a bit of mail in the recent past from
people who are wondering how I get reverse-video or underlining into my net
postings. I found out about it only accidentally myself, but here is what
you do: You insert sequences of "underscore-backspace-character" in order to
get "character" highlighted.
Test lines:
_T_h_e_s_e _t_h_r_e_e _l_i_n_e_s _a_r_e _e_n_t_i_r_e_l_y _h_i_g_h_l_i_g_h_t_e_d_. _I_f _y_o_u _d_o _n_o_t _s_e_e _t_h_e_m _a_s _b_e_i_n_g
_h_i_g_h_l_i_g_h_t_e_d_, _(_1_) _y_o_u_r _n_e_w_s _s_o_f_t_w_a_r_e _[_o_r _p_e_r_h_a_p_s _m_o_r_e_(_1_)_] _d_o_e_s _n_o_t _s_u_p_p_o_r_t
_i_t_, _o_r _(_2_) _y_o_u_r _t_e_r_m_c_a_p _d_e_s_c_r_i_p_t_i_o_n _c_o_n_t_a_i_n_s _n_o _u_s_/_u_e _f_i_e_l_d_s_.
If your terminal doesn't support underlining, try setting us/ue to be the
same thing as the so/se (standout, or highlight) fields. This is a great
improvement over attempts to "highlight" phrases using *asterisks*,
CAPITALIZATION, \weird slashes/, or s p a c e d w o r d s.
If you still don't understand what I mean, save this article, and look at it
with a visual editor (vi, emacs), or with od(1).
--
From the badly beaten keyboards of best address---+
him who speaks in _*_T_y_P_e_* _f-_O-_n-_T-_s... |
V
Karl Kleinpaste @ Bell Labs, Columbus 614/860-5107 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!_c_b_r_m_a_!_k_k
@ Ohio State University 614/422-0915 cbosgd!osu-eddie!karlchuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) (12/03/84)
In article <132@osu-eddie.UUCP> karl@osu-eddie.UUCP writes: >Greetings. I have received quite a bit of mail in the recent past from >people who are wondering how I get reverse-video or underlining into my net >postings. Please note a couple of things: 1) These actions are NOT recommended because they only work if the terminal on the other end happens to be compatible with yous. There are many terminals out there guaranteed not to be, and control sequences can do unexpected things and upset the person reading the article. We've had cases where people have accidently locked, reset, or otherwise made a terminal unusable or unreadable. 2) Many versions of news eat any potentially dangerous control characters. I believe that 2.10.2 (and perhaps 2.10.1) will only allow \n, \r, and \h, making everything else go away. The end result is-- most people either won't see it, or will see garbage. Some people will probably get dinged, and that isn't a way to make friends and influence (positively) people. This topic comes up every six months or so, and every six months or so we remind people that doing these things is potentially dangerous and shouldn't be done. chuq -- From the center of a Plaid pentagram: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ~But you know, monsieur, that as long as she wears the claw of the dragon upon her breast you can do nothing-- her soul belongs to me!~
gam@amdahl.UUCP (Gordon A. Moffett) (12/03/84)
> In article <132@osu-eddie.UUCP> karl@osu-eddie.UUCP writes: > >Greetings. I have received quite a bit of mail in the recent past from > >people who are wondering how I get reverse-video or underlining into my net > >postings. > > Please note a couple of things: > > 1) These actions are NOT recommended because they only work if the terminal > on the other end happens to be compatible with yous. There are many > terminals out there guaranteed not to be, and control sequences can do > unexpected things and upset the person reading the article. We've had cases > where people have accidently locked, reset, or otherwise made a terminal > unusable or unreadable. Mr. Kleinpaste's suggestion was to use underscore-backspace-character combinations, and then the reader could use an appropriate filter to do highlighting on their terminal. (This works very nicely with the hp(1) filter for my hp2621). I know of no terminals that gag on backspaces, except perhaps some very stupid hardcopy terminals. -- Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,sun}!amdahl!gam 37 22'50" N / 122 59'12" W [ This is just me talking. ]
thomas@utah-gr.UUCP (Spencer W. Thomas) (12/03/84)
Rn nicely enough notices nroff style underlining and, if possible, sends the appropriate sequence to the terminal to underline the text. Pretty nice. =Spencer
mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (12/03/84)
I think Chuq misunderstands. We did indeed once have problems because of special purpose escape sequences embedded in news articles. Someone included the sequence that underlined text on a Concept 100, and that same sequence locked the keyboard on every HP terminal on the net that read the article. Many people were (quite justifiably) unhappy. Shortly thereafter, code was put into inews to refuse to pass any but the most vanilla control characters. This is why you'll occasionally see a message like 'helo[Dlo' - somebody pressed the left arrow key on their keyboard instead of backspace, the left arrow sequence (often ESC [ D) was transmitted, and inews took out the dangerous ESC character. However, what Karl is posting is quite harmless - it just has backspaces in it. I don't know of any terminals that choke on backspaces (although some printers do bizarre things with them.) The underlining or reverse video you see is the result of your user interface (rn or vnews or more) doing the translation from _ BS char to underlined char. This translation is done on the machine where the news is being read, so it's done for the right terminal. Mark Horton
steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (12/03/84)
> In article <132@osu-eddie.UUCP> karl@osu-eddie.UUCP writes: > >Greetings. I have received quite a bit of mail in the recent past from > >people who are wondering how I get reverse-video or underlining into my net > >postings. > > 1) These actions are NOT recommended because they only work if the terminal > on the other end happens to be compatible with yous. There are many > terminals out there guaranteed not to be, and control sequences can do > unexpected things and upset the person reading the article. We've had cases > where people have accidently locked, reset, or otherwise made a terminal > unusable or unreadable. > > 2) Many versions of news eat any potentially dangerous control characters. > I believe that 2.10.2 (and perhaps 2.10.1) will only allow \n, \r, and \h, > making everything else go away. > > The end result is-- most people either won't see it, or will see garbage. > Some people will probably get dinged, and that isn't a way to make friends > and influence (positively) people. This topic comes up every six months or > so, and every six months or so we remind people that doing these things is > potentially dangerous and shouldn't be done. > NO NO, this is not what he is doing he is using the sequence underbar backspace character for underlining and "more" interprets it for the terminal highlighting. If the terminal does not have highlight mode, or the system does not have "more", all that happens is that it prints the underbar, backspace, and then the character so it makes a funny jerking at the underlined characters. -- scc!steiny Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382 109 Torrey Pine Terr. Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060 ihnp4!pesnta -\ fortune!idsvax -> scc!steiny ucbvax!twg -/
karl@osu-eddie.UUCP (Karl Kleinpaste) (12/04/84)
---------- >1) These actions are NOT recommended because they only work if the terminal >on the other end happens to be compatible with yours. There are many >terminals out there guaranteed not to be, and control sequences can do >unexpected things and upset the person reading the article... > >2) Many versions of news eat any potentially dangerous control characters. >I believe that 2.10.2 (and perhaps 2.10.1) will only allow \n, \r, and \h, >making everything else go away. > >...This topic comes up every six months or >so, and every six months or so we remind people that doing these things is >potentially dangerous and shouldn't be done. ---------- First, I offer a general retraction of the suggestion. Fine. Second, the only "dangerous control character" I mentioned was backspace; I hardly suspect that there are many terminals for which this causes major heartbreak. I wasn't suggesting that raw escape sequences be inserted; gads, no. But, third, <begin small flame> why in heaven's name was ***any*** news software ***ever*** created which could deal with this sort of thing if it was known to exploit the braindamage of people's terminals??? <flame off> Exasperation begins to set in... -- From the badly beaten keyboards of best address---+ him who speaks in *TyPe* f-O-n-T-s... | V Karl Kleinpaste @ Bell Labs, Columbus 614/860-5107 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!cbrma!kk @ Ohio State University 614/422-0915 cbosgd!osu-eddie!karl
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) (12/04/84)
References <> <1951@nsc.UUCP> <264@scc.UUCP> Reply-To: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) Distribution: Organization: Plaid Heaven Keywords: Summary: > NO NO, this is not what he is doing he is using the sequence > > underbar backspace character > The reason I said what I said is because not everyone will limit themselves to the underbar backspace character approach. It's happened on a couple of occasions in the past, and invariably someone decides to get cute and pull out their VT100 reference manual-- in go the graphics characters, the double width, the double height, you name it, someone will see how NEAT it makes the article look on their terminal and send it out. Unfortunately, for all of those nice people on HP terminals a VT100 double width command is, at best, meaningless and can do very strange things to their terminal. Besides, not everyone uses more as their pager, so even the action of the underbar backspace character sequence is really undefined. It is PROBABLY harmless, but not guaranteed. The net is such a large collection of incompatible hardware that we need to keep things as simple and compatible as possible or we're going to ding someone out there. Anytime you get fancy, someone is going to have some piece of hardware or software that breaks on it. I STILL don't recommend playing these games-- someone is going to get burned by it. chuq -- From the center of a Plaid pentagram: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ~But you know, monsieur, that as long as she wears the claw of the dragon upon her breast you can do nothing-- her soul belongs to me!~
karl@osu-eddie.UUCP (Karl Kleinpaste) (12/05/84)
For crying out loud, this has *really* gotten out of hand... ---------- > I STILL don't recommend playing these games-- someone is going to get > burned by it. ---------- Yeah. Me. (1) I received quite a herd of mail (herd: >10 letters) asking me very politely how I got reverse video or underlining into my postings. (The interpretation varies from one terminal/termcap-description to another as to whether you saw it as underlined or highlighted.) Hence, I thought I was doing the net public a genuine favor when I posted what is evidently an undocumented and sometimes well-liked feature of the news system. (2) I note editorially that the degree of civility and politeness with which the posting was greeted has been considerably less than exemplary. That is, by those who didn't like it, of course. (3) Someone (can't remember who, doesn't matter) posted to the effect that he reads news from EMACS, and that this feature caused him some consternation when reading postings with said feature in use. Well, if you deal with the news system with software other than the news software, you are up your own creek, and you can't expect any help from anybody whatsoever; you deserve what you get. You are using a tool designed for one particular job for an entirely different job. For news, use software which is designed for news. If you must retrofit EMACS to do news, see to it first that EMACS does the whole job correctly. (4) I did not advocate the usage of escape sequences of any kind; I noted that this feature worked using simple backspace (^H), which is not a pathological use of any terminal I've ever seen. (Yes, I've seen some pretty bizarre ones.) (5) Even if I *had* advocated the usage of escape sequences (such as highlighting for vt100 series terminals), Mark Horton has already posted to the effect that the news software traps crap like that, strips it out, and sends it on its way in a form which disallows damage to anybody else. (6) The fact that the feature exists in the news software indicates that somebody somewhere for some reason thought it would be a good, neat, useful idea. I happen to agree. That person added it. I'm glad. Evidently, it was not implemented fully, in that not all terminals which can be used with the news software can deal with it. I have one flame in my mail which objects LOUDLY to the fact that it has hung up their terminal. Now I'm not so glad any more. (I don't even know what type of terminal it was; just keep it away from me.) With all the due respect that I can muster for the news software authors, let this be a lesson to you about half-implementations of features. If you can't do it *completely*, please be kind and don't do it *at all*. (7) I have already stopped using this apparent misfeature, and have reverted to (ugh) *asterisks* and CAPITALIZATION, though I avoid \weird slashes/ and s p a c e d w o r d s with a passion. (8) I have already posted a general retraction of the suggestion, cancelled the original article, and cancelled a followup which I wrote in response to the beginnings of the hate mail I got. So... <FLAME FULL THROTTLE> LET'S JUST QUIT DISCUSSING IT. <flame off> Geez, to think I was trying to do somebody a favor...I genuinely feel that I did not earn the abuse which I have received, particularly in the mail. -- From the badly beaten keyboards of best address---+ him who speaks in *TyPe* f-O-n-T-s... | V Karl Kleinpaste @ Bell Labs, Columbus 614/860-5107 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!cbrma!kk @ Ohio State University 614/422-0915 cbosgd!osu-eddie!karl
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (12/05/84)
Problems with underscore-backspace underlining: It is processed by more(1). Therefore, it will not work unless the message is piped through more(1). This does not happen if the message is short, or if an alternate filter like pg is used. It looks funny in a text editor. To produce it, an extra processing phase is needed to convert some comprehensible format into the underscore-backspace format. Words which contain underscore-backspace sequences cannot be readily searched for in more or most editors. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9.
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) (12/05/84)
References <> <1951@nsc.UUCP> <552@cbosgd.UUCP>
Reply-To: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui)
Distribution:
Organization: Plaid Heaven
Keywords:
Summary:
My main complaints are with the 'cute' characters although I still
personally think it is an unneccessary frill. But, as Mark points out, most
inews will protect most people from most problems, so I'll send out a quiet
'Never mind' and quit complaining...
(he is right, too.. backspaces aren't that big a deal, as long as they stay
backspaces....)
chuq, the not always right (thankfully)
--
From the center of a Plaid pentagram: Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
~But you know, monsieur, that as long as she wears the claw of the dragon
upon her breast you can do nothing-- her soul belongs to me!~dmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (12/05/84)
> (6) The fact that the feature exists in the news software indicates that > somebody somewhere for some reason thought it would be a good, neat, useful > idea. I happen to agree. That person added it. I'm glad. Evidently, it was > not implemented fully, in that not all terminals which can be used with the > news software can deal with it. I have one flame in my mail which objects > LOUDLY to the fact that it has hung up their terminal. Now I'm not so glad > any more. (I don't even know what type of terminal it was; just keep it away > from me.) With all the due respect that I can muster for the news software > authors, let this be a lesson to you about half-implementations of features. > If you can't do it *completely*, please be kind and don't do it *at all*. The news system is evolving, and always has some partly-implemented or buggy features in it. If you insist on stable, fully-implemented software, I suggest you simply not read news for another several years, at least. Besides, the "news software" does NOT handle highlighting as a feature. B news is just tolerant enough not to throw away backspaces in its input; this may be changed at some point in the future. RN, perhaps, may handle the highlighting, but that isn't part of the standard news distribution. Readnews may send articles over a certain length through more(1) on systems that have it, but not all do. So please don't assume that because a feature works on your machine it is a standard, designed-in feature. Dave Martindale
gam@amdahl.UUCP (Gordon A. Moffett) (12/06/84)
> Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center > ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim > Problems with underscore-backspace underlining: > > It is processed by more(1). Therefore, it will not work unless the message > is piped through more(1). This does not happen if the message is short, or > if an alternate filter like pg is used. Because of this problem, I've implimented a check in readnews(1) for and environment variable PAGESIZE, which determines how big an article needs to be before it is sent to PAGER, rather than having it hard- coded as `16'. (Obviously it is set to '0' to assure continuous filtering). This is fairly easy to impliment. A drawback to this is that if PAGER also contains a program line 'pg' or 'more', EVERY article would go thru the PAGER -- icky. Perhaps there should be a PAGER (use if article is > PAGESIZE) and FILTER (use always)? > It looks funny in a text editor. To produce it, an extra processing phase > is needed to convert some comprehensible format into the > underscore-backspace format. A work-around can be done for this: write a script that does the filtering of stdin to a file, and call the editor on that file (removing the file afterwards). Make this your PAGER (but -- see disadvantage above). > Words which contain underscore-backspace sequences cannot be readily > searched for in more or most editors. You can filter them before they get to more: PAGER="sed -e 's/_^H//' | more" The editor is still a problem, though. PS -- my PAGER is "hp | pg" (system V). -- Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,sun}!amdahl!gam 37 22'50" N / 121 59'12" W [ This is just me talking. ] [ Note longitude correction; I am no longer in the Pacific Ocean ]
wls@astrovax.UUCP (William L. Sebok) (12/06/84)
> Besides, the "news software" does NOT handle highlighting as a feature. > B news is just tolerant enough not to throw away backspaces in its input; > this may be changed at some point in the future. RN, perhaps, may handle > the highlighting, but that isn't part of the standard news distribution. > Readnews may send articles over a certain length through more(1) on systems > that have it, but not all do. So please don't assume that because a > feature works on your machine it is a standard, designed-in feature. > Dave Martindale vnews also handles Underlining/Highlighting and it is part of the 2.10.2 distribution. Thus to that extent it is a "standard, designed-in feature". -- Bill Sebok Princeton University, Astrophysics {allegra,akgua,burl,cbosgd,decvax,ihnp4,noao,princeton,vax135}!astrovax!wls
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) (12/06/84)
References <3@osu-eddie.UUCP> <20980012@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> <682@amdahl.UUCP> Reply-To: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) Distribution: Organization: Plaid Heaven Keywords: Summary: >Because of this problem, I've implimented a check in readnews(1) for >and environment variable PAGESIZE, which determines how big an article >needs to be before it is sent to PAGER, rather than having it hard- >coded as `16'. (Obviously it is set to '0' to assure continuous >filtering). This is fairly easy to impliment. > >A drawback to this is that if PAGER also contains a program line 'pg' >or 'more', EVERY article would go thru the PAGER -- icky. > >Perhaps there should be a PAGER (use if article is > PAGESIZE) and >FILTER (use always)? > > >A work-around can be done for this: write a script that does the filtering >of stdin to a file, and call the editor on that file (removing the >file afterwards). Make this your PAGER (but -- see disadvantage >above). > > >You can filter them before they get to more: > > PAGER="sed -e 's/_^H//' | more" > >The editor is still a problem, though. > >PS -- my PAGER is "hp | pg" (system V). Considering the speed with which sites upgrade their software for significant enhancements trying to get people to hack in changes to make a questionable feature useful is silly. I'd rather hack in changes that make a questionable feature safe-- eat _^H, for example, to keep it from messing up downstream sites... I promised to be nice and quiet about backspaces in articles, but if people are going to have to start hacking around to make them useful on their sites, you need to realize that most people aren't going to bother-- hence it is simply going to create problems. chuq -- From the center of a Plaid pentagram: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ~But you know, monsieur, that as long as she wears the claw of the dragon upon her breast you can do nothing-- her soul belongs to me!~
bsa@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) (12/10/84)
If _^Hx is verboten, then everybody had besy fix a program which everyone
under Unix uses which constantly uses this. I'm thinking of /usr/bin/man .
--bsa
--
Brandon Allbery @ North Coast Xenix | the.world!ucbvax!decvax!cwruecmp!
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio | {atvax!}ncoast!{tdi1!}bsa
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| BALLBERY (161-7070) on MCI Mail
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Keeping the Galaxies safe for Civilization... :-)robert@gitpyr.UUCP (Robert Viduya) (12/13/84)
>< > If _^Hx is verboten, then everybody had besy fix a program which everyone > under Unix uses which constantly uses this. I'm thinking of /usr/bin/man . > Don't forget to change /usr/bin/nroff as well. -- Robert Viduya Office of Computing Services Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta GA 30332 Phone: (404) 894-4669 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!robert ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!robert