ajs@hpfcla.UUCP (ajs) (12/10/84)
> Who are the real customers for satellite news? How many commercial news > sites will even be able to get a cable TV hookup, or justify it to > management? (Let them buy earth stations? Ha.) Here at HP in Fort Collins, we already have several satellite dishes, we could probably justify to management a decoder box and/or a cable tap (simply on the basis of saving phone bills), and some of us are watching with interest. Lauren, thanks for taking the trouble to make this happen; please keep us (the Net) informed of developments. Alan Silverstein, Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Systems Division, Colorado {ihnp4 | hplabs}!hpfcla!ajs, 303-226-3800 x3053, N 40 31'31" W 105 00'43" (In this case it's important that I point out, this is just my own opinion, and doesn't in any way reflect official policy.)
lauren@vortex.UUCP (Lauren Weinstein) (12/12/84)
For God's sake. Some people just LOVE to knock things, don't they? First of all David, I haven't made a dime on this project. Nor is it terribly likely that I ever will. If someday I manage to get some reimbursement for my time or some additional consulting that'll be great, but I have no way to expect that. I've been donating all my time and efforts to this project, as have various other people, not to mention Usenix which has been paying expenses and the WTBS satellite carrier who is giving us free satellite time for the experiment. As for costs, we're not talking about hacked-together toys here. We're talking about commercial equipment made by large firms who aren't in business for their health. The equipment that people buy now for this kind of vertical interval decoding costs close to $1000 OR MORE, for video input. These things simply aren't in the kind of mass production that could bring things down to consumer levels, and there is a lot of complexity that goes far beyond the more ordinary "teletext magazine" decoders. The fact that the end-user cost, including markups along the way, may get as low as $500, including demod, has amazed the industry people who have been working in this field all along. The companies making the equipment (NOT ME -- I'm not selling these things) either make money on the products or they will not build them. Custom chips are involved to handle the decoding and decryption, by the way. Once again, we are NOT talking toys here, we are talking national broadcasting over the largest non-sports basic cable service in the world -- WTBS. The actual breakdown for the (hoped-for) $500 cost is about $130 for a very nice RF/video demod (direct tuning for cable channels with all the special filtering and tuning circuits required for the very delicate teletext tuning) and about $370 for the actual decoder with RS232 output. That's about 1/2 the price of anything available today, and even this price is at risk unless there is sufficient demand to drive the manufacturing. Only recently has enough demand seemed to appear. The additional buffering hardware would basically include CPU, lots of memory, interfaces, power supply, and similar items. Individually, such items aren't that expensive. But by the time you get someone to make the PC boards and assemble the units into cases and stock them, you're talking a couple of hundred bucks (I'm hoping for $150-$200, but there's no way to know for sure at this point since we don't know who would do the manufacturing and on what terms) even if you're not interested in making any profit on them. While it's nice to be able to play around sometimes, and while some people are willing to donate their time to such projects, we can't force EVERYONE to be so altruistic and do everything for free. The people working with the project right now have no way of knowing that we'll ever see a cent in terms of time reimbursement, but we're happy to do the work anyway because it's a good cause. I'm hoping that the effective costs of decoders and demods can be reduced to the end user even further through rental/buyback rather than purchases if that can be made possible. HOWEVER, if the network community doesn't like the way the project is going, I will give the satellite people a call, tell them to pull the plug on stargate, and then I'll even have more time to work on projects that can help me pay this month's rent. What say you, oh entities of the net? Please post to this group. Thanks much. --Lauren--
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (12/13/84)
First, I'd like to express the gratitude we all owe Lauren for his excellent and ridiculously fast work on this project to date. My question is, assuming that everything goes smoothly up to hardware manufacture, how will the final system be paid for? I realize the satellite time is free now, but obviously that won't be the case once the system is really deployed. Will it be a "normal" cable service, with billing by the local cable merchant, who in turn pays a fee to retransmit it, or what? In that case, is there likely to be sufficient demand so that most cable companies will bother to support it? Please forgive me if this question has already been dealt with. (When you are through forgiving me, send me mail explaining it in words comprehensible by a cretin.) Otherwise, please respond to this newsgroup. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9.
marcum@rhino.UUCP (Alan M. Marcum) (12/13/84)
In article <vortex.466> lauren@vortex.UUCP (Lauren Weinstein) writes: > >For God's sake. Some people just LOVE to knock things, don't they? > >First of all David, I haven't made a dime on this project. Nor is >it terribly likely that I ever will. If someday I manage to >get some reimbursement for my time or some additional consulting >that'll be great, but I have no way to expect that. . . . > >HOWEVER, if the network community doesn't like the way the >project is going, I will give the satellite people >a call, tell them to pull the plug on stargate, and then >I'll even have more time to work on projects that can help >me pay this month's rent. > >What say you, oh entities of the net? Please post to this group. >Thanks much. > >--Lauren-- This entitiy of the net is very excited about the stargate project. It is one of the most significant things to ever happen to UseNet, I suspect. Hang in there, Lauren -- it's worth it. -- Alan M. Marcum Fortune Systems, Redwood City, California ...!{ihnp4, ucbvax!amd, hpda, sri-unix, harpo}!fortune!rhino!marcum
dmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (12/14/84)
To Lauren: Get on with the useful work, and ignore the turkeys.
bch@ecsvax.UUCP (Byron C. Howes) (12/14/84)
I, for one, am appreciative of all the work Lauren has done on a volunteer
basis to encourage the growth of usenet. (I remember when he was just
Lauren@ucla-security.) I daresay that usenet would not be what it is
without his many hours of work and his willingness to be a network personality
when the situation called for it. On occasion, he has even taken on the
mantle of an Artificial Intelligence project (or is he "she") ...but those
were the good old days.
I was excited to hear a reliable rumor about satellite broadcast of netnews,
stunned to here it might very well be a reality and thunderstruck by the
fact that its *here* and working. Who do I send my $500 to...
Folks what complain about this just ain't got no sense of history.
Thanks for everything, Lauren ...and Congratulations!
--
Byron Howes
System Manager -- NCECS
...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bchsjl@amdahl.UUCP (Steve Langdon) (12/14/84)
Keep the project going, it sounds like an admirable effort. If you need more
volunteers I'm sure that there are others on the net who would try and find the
time. I know I would.
--
Stephen J. Langdon ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,sun,amd}!amdahl!sjl
[ The article above is not an official statement from any organization
in the known universe. ]smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (12/14/84)
Lauren, you have my support -- I think this is one of the most exciting things to happen to USENET in quite some time. When you first proposed the satellite idea, I was very skeptical that it would go anyplace -- much less this soon. --Steve Bellovin
barto@celerity.UUCP (David Barto) (12/14/84)
I, for one, am looking forward to the day that I can use the satellite
news to get it "as it happens". Please, Lauren, keep up the work, even
if some individuals don't think it will pay off, some of us do.
--
David Barto akgua!celerity!barto
{decvax || ucbvax || ihnp4}!sdcsvax!celerity!barto
"If you are using more than 7 sites to get here, you are taking the long way"pml@usl.UUCP (Patrick Landry) (12/14/84)
You must be joking! If there is not sufficient interest in this project
to make it go I can't imagine a project which would generate such interest.
I, for one, am VERY enthused about the stargate project. At $1000 for a
hookup it won't take that long for me to save money. I am looking forward
especially to seeing the demo in Dallas. Please continue with your
work because it is very much appreciated. See you in Dallas.
---pat---
Patrick Landry
ut-sally \ University of Southwestern Louisiana
!usl!pml
akgua / LandryPM%usl@csnet-relay.ARPAbae@fisher.UUCP (Shiva the Destroyer) (12/14/84)
Damn the A**holes! Full Speed Ahead!
--
Brian A. Ehrmantraut
Ad Maioram Gloriam Hasturi!
UUCP: {allegra, astrovax, princeton, twg} !fisher!bae
BELL: (609) 452-8991 / (609) 734-7761
USnail: 184 Little Hall, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544gbs@voder.UUCP (George Smith) (12/14/84)
> For God's sake. Some people just LOVE to knock things, don't they? > > ... > > HOWEVER, if the network community doesn't like the way the > project is going, I will give the satellite people > a call, tell them to pull the plug on stargate, and then > I'll even have more time to work on projects that can help > me pay this month's rent. > > --Lauren-- Lauren: Sincerely, calm down. Yes, there are lots of people in the world who like to knock things. That is there nature. They are not malevolent or assholes, they are just people with different points of view. You are a public figure in the UNIX world who has accepted a leadership role and must accept the responsibility of being big enough to take criticism. You know when the criticism is invalid just as the rest of us do. But that criticism will not hurt you or your efforts. I say, "Thank you!" and hope you will continue. -- George B. Smith National Semiconductor ...!{ihnp4!nsc | decvax!decwrl!nsc | ucbvax}!voder!gbs
lat@stcvax.UUCP (Larry Tepper) (12/14/84)
I can't figure out how it's so easy for people to misunderstand
what seem to me to be straight-forward postings on the net.
Anyone who's developed even a medium-sized software system (say
10,000 lines) knows that the amount of time and effort is enormous
to get such a system working reasonably well. Remember how much
time it took to get your first homework programs to work? I know
that alot of you on the net are not programmers or engineers, but
(since you are reading this via a computer) you probably know some
of them, eh? Perhaps you could ask them how easy it is to get
something like this going. Ask a EE how simple it is to get one
PC board up and running in a system. Go ahead, make my day...
Lauren's made it quite clear on numerous occasions that the work
he and others are doing is volunteer time. Every time I see a
posting on the net asking for volunteers to work on something
like this project, or the Usenet map, or the next release of
news, whatever, I start thinking how I'd like to help. Then
I remember how little free time I already have, how I'm married
and time spent with my wife is already very precious, there's all
the reading I need to do just to keep current in my profession (or at
least to familiarize myself with all the latest buzz words) not
to mention recreation time. We've got a house to keep up too.
And on, and on.
Three cheers to those who have made the time to keep the net
going and growing.
--
One of the survivors...
{ihnp4 hao philabs sdcrdcf ucbvax!nbires}!stcvax!lat Larry Tepper
Storage Technology, MD-3T, Louisville, CO 80028 303-673-5435david@bragvax.UUCP (David DiGiacomo) (12/15/84)
Let me try to clarify my position... I am excited about broadcast news. I got a real thrill from tweaking the vertical hold on my TV set and watching the bits flash by in the blanking. (Try it!) If I didn't care, I wouldn't have gotten upset when Lauren started talking about $650 decoders and encryption and monthly fees. Who are the real customers for satellite news? How many commercial news sites will even be able to get a cable TV hookup, or justify it to management? (Let them buy earth stations? Ha.) Cable TV hookups are universally found in homes, so it seems that satellite news will primarily benefit those with home Unix systems (PCs in general?). I don't think I would pay $650 to read the news at home. (I suppose a hybrid approach is possible where an employee who lives within free-call distance gets an extra phone line and installs the news decoder -- it's still a lot easier to get the company to pay for phone calls to a news feed.) My conclusion is that a truly successful broadcast news system will have to be a low-cost, shoe-string, hacker type project. Now I'd like to reply to some points in Lauren's counter-flame (article <466@vortex.UUCP>): >As for costs, we're not talking about hacked-together toys here. >We're talking about commercial equipment made by large >firms who aren't in business for their health. I think we should talk about hacked-together toys; isn't that what Usenet was built on ? :-) Seriously, why should Usenet hardware be different from Usenet software: lovingly crafted by amateurs, and distributed without thought of profit ? >Once again, we are NOT talking toys here, we are talking national >broadcasting over the largest non-sports basic cable service in >the world -- WTBS. OK, you need non-toy equipment at the broadcast end, but nothing my Brand-X decoder does is going to cause WTBS to break FCC rules. That's the miracle of broadcasting. >HOWEVER, if the network community doesn't like the way the project is >going, I will give the satellite people a call, tell them to pull the >plug on stargate, and then I'll even have more time to work on projects >that can help me pay this month's rent. That's an ugly threat, Lauren. We have to play by your rules or you'll take your marbles and go home. How about option #3: if the network community doesn't like the way the project is going, you will find out why and modify the project! >What say you, oh entities of the net? Please post to this group. Better yet, just mail in your $650. -- David DiGiacomo, BRAG Systems Inc., San Mateo CA (415) 342-3963 (...decvax!ucbvax!hplabs!bragvax!david)
mjs@alice.UUCP (M. J. Shannon, Jr.) (12/15/84)
Folks, the satellite/cable project is probably the most sensible thing that the
USENIX Association has ever done (or ever will, it it's up to the turkeys who
nay-say this project).
To those who say, "Nay," what is the experiment costing you? But more
importantly, what have you contributed to the net (other than flames)? Silence
may be the best contribution that some of us make, but Lauren has my full
support, and any time, money, etc. that I can offer (which offer I have already
made privately).
--
Marty Shannon
UUCP: {alice,research}!mjs
(rabbit is dead; long live alice!)
Phone: 201-582-3199mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (12/15/84)
Lauren has put a lot of work into this project, and I think it's pretty clear that most people on the net appreciate this work. Let's not let a few flamers get in the way of real progress. Mark Horton
kay@flame.UUCP (Kay Dekker) (12/16/84)
[ ODT: David Bowie (think ...)] I'm with you, Lauren. Kay. -- "But what we need to know is, do people want nasally-insertable computers?" ... mcvax!ukc!flame!kay
hart@cp1.UUCP (rod ) (12/16/84)
$500 ! How do I place my order. Hang in there buddy. Some guys don't want to shell out any dough unless the product is over priced and carry the label of Big Blue or Ma whats her name. -- =========================================================================== Signed by: Rod Hart (WA3MEZ) Minicomputer Technical Support District Chesapeake & Potomac Tel. Co. A Bell Atlantic Company Silver Spring, Md. sabre!cp1!hart - gamma!cp1!hart - umcp-cs!cp1!hart - aplvax!cp1!hart ===========================================================================
bch@ecsvax.UUCP (Byron C. Howes) (12/16/84)
In article <275@bragvax.UUCP> david@bragvax.UUCP (David DiGiacomo) writes: >That's an ugly threat, Lauren. We have to play by your rules or you'll >take your marbles and go home. How about option #3: if the network >community doesn't like the way the project is going, you will find out >why and modify the project! I have an even better idea. If David DiGiacomo thinks he has a better way to do this (and he clearly does) turn the entire project over to him and let him spend *his* volunteer time to on it -- modifying his ideas of course if the "network community" doesn't like the way he is doing it. I'm sure Lauren has better things to do than listening to this kind of carping... -- Byron Howes System Manager -- NCECS ...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bch
jeff@alberta.UUCP (C. J. Sampson) (12/17/84)
> Who are the real customers for satellite news? How many commercial news > sites will even be able to get a cable TV hookup, or justify it to > management? (Let them buy earth stations? Ha.) . : > it's > still a lot easier to get the company to pay for phone calls to a news > feed.) Right. Sure. I think that a lot of companies would rather pay $3000 for a dish and decoder, etc. initally and then another perhaps $100/month (at most!) for electricity, maintenance, etc. rather then paying $500 or more per month on phone bills. Think of how much backbone sites like ihnp4 must pay per month in outgoing calls. The system would pay for itself in well under a year. Now you try to tell your boss that it's better to use a more expensive system rather then investing in a cheap one. > >HOWEVER, if the network community doesn't like the way the project is > >going, I will give the satellite people a call, tell them to pull the > >plug on stargate, and then I'll even have more time to work on projects > >that can help me pay this month's rent. > > That's an ugly threat, Lauren. We have to play by your rules or you'll > take your marbles and go home. How about option #3: if the network > community doesn't like the way the project is going, you will find out > why and modify the project! Ok, let's go by option number three. Since we are going to tell him what to do, and how we want it done, we should also pay him standard consulting fees. I figure he hasn't put in more than about five hundred hours so far, so if somebody could just kindly dig up twenty thousand dollars or so for him... Lauren, keep going and ignore the jerks. I see you doing something constructive, I see others doing something destructive. I'm behind you all the way. (I think the old saying applies here: a person is either part of the problem or part of the solution. Which are you?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. J. Sampson Snail Canada: #712 11135-83rd ave. ***DISCLAIMER*** ihnp4!alberta!jeff Edmonton, Alberta +--------------+ ubc-vision!alberta!jeff CANADA T6G 2C8 | These may | sask!alberta!jeff Phone: (403) 439-6851 | be opinions. | +--------------+ "It looked like something resembling white marble, which was probably what is was: something resembling white marble."
franka@hercules.UUCP (Frank Adrian) (12/17/84)
In article <564@voder.UUCP> gbs@voder.UUCP (George Smith) writes: > > >Lauren: > Sincerely, calm down. Yes, there are lots of people in the world >who like to knock things. That is there nature. They are not malevolent >or assholes, they are just people with different points of view. You are >a public figure in the UNIX world who has accepted a leadership role and >must accept the responsibility of being big enough to take criticism. You >know when the criticism is invalid just as the rest of us do. But that >criticism will not hurt you or your efforts. I say, "Thank you!" and >hope you will continue. >George B. Smith >National Semiconductor >...!{ihnp4!nsc | decvax!decwrl!nsc | ucbvax}!voder!gbs Bullshit, George. The idiot who wrote the initial flame to Lauren is a malevolent asshole. Just because Lauren does a large amount of work which keeps the net going doesn't mean he has to accept the abuse of every bugfuck idiot who crawls out of the woodwork to snipe at him. The attitude of people like you who say, "Oh. Go ahead. I'm visible. Abuse me," is one of the things that keep this kind of abuse going. I say flame the bastard. Nuke him 'til he glows. The asshole's probably pissed off since he didn't think of it first and put HIS price tag on it. "Remember, wherever you happen to be -- you're already there" Frank Adrian ___ /- -\ \ - / uucp: {decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!franka CSnet: franka@tek ARPAnet: franka.tek@rand-relay
dan@msdc.UUCP (Dan Forsyth) (12/17/84)
Look folks, I think there's a problem with perspective here. How much
did you pay for the 1200bps modem sitting on your little Unix system
that listens for your news? About 500 bucks I'll bet (maybe $400 if
you're a good shopper). So how could you hope that a cable TV decoding
setup could cost much less? Especially when there's much less demand
for them.
<Flame on>
This is to those bozos out there who would pay thousands for an IBM PC
or Mac or whatever and 3 or 4 hundred for Lotus 1-2-3 or MultiPlan or
Dbase II and then would have the gall to flame about a cable-to-RS232
decoder that costs the same as a phone-to-RS232 modem. You deserve to
get what you pay for! Squeeze those nickels and let the dollars slip
through your fingers!
<Flame off>
I feel better now. Thanks.
Dan Forsyth ({gatech,akgua,mcnc}!msdc!dan)
Medical Systems Development Corporation, Atlanta, GArcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Randy Buckland) (12/18/84)
> > What say you, oh entities of the net? Please post to this group. > Thanks much. > Sounds like good work to me. When can I get a decoder? I have only one question. How about response to the net. Is someone going to offer uucp dialup to a machine to receive response and outgoing mail and news from all these little micros? Just thought I'd ask. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb
vasoll@okstate.UUCP (12/18/84)
You can count on our support! This is a very interesting
project that could *save* a lot of people a lot of money
(have you looked at *YOUR* netnews phone bill lately?)! I
would very much like to see some technical postings on how
stargate works (I'm a computer scientist, not a moon shuttle
conductor! :-)
Full speed ahead,
Mark Vasoll
Department of Computing and Information Sciences
Oklahoma State University
...!ihnp4!umn-cs!isucs1!\
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!ea! > okstate!vasoll
...!convex!ctvax!uokvax!/
ARPA: vasoll%okstate.csnet@csnet-relay.arpapml@usl.UUCP (Patrick Landry) (12/18/84)
It seems that David is grasping at straws. USL, where I work, is an
educational institution (as are a very many net users judging from
headers and map info). And what a surprise David, we have had at least
one cable feed into every building on campus for as long as cable has
been around. Do you really believe that there aren't a significant number
of non-home users who will benefit from this? Come now.
And as far as the decoder cost goes; if you can build your decoder for
less than the commercial product, have at it. I for one don't have the
time, expertise, money, rescources, etc. to do so and would gladly pay
whatever it costs to cut my phone bill down.
Now that the mass of pro-stargate messages has come in (I cringed when
Lauren asked for it) why don't you go off and build your decoder and let the
rest of us enjoy hearing the exiting news from Lauren.
Again, Lauren, I can't wait to see you and your project results at Dallas.
---pat---
Patrick Landry
ut-sally \ University of Southwestern Louisiana
!usl!pml
akgua / LandryPM%usl@csnet-relay.ARPAbass@dmsd.UUCP (John Bass) (12/19/84)
Lauren's in the right ball park on unit costs given a comercial market ... the $500 dollor pricing will be agressive given the market size. It would be helpful if an ongoing technical disclosure would appear on this network to allow others the chance of viewing (and participating??) in the stargate project during it's trial. How about disclosure of technical info to allow HighTech types to build a decoder? Online wirelist of Laurens prototypes, parts lists, design information, alignment info, source to microcontroller, etc ... would be both informative and go a long way to removing questions of keeping the info locked up to support private enterprise funded by USENIX. I imagine that their are a number on engineers on the net with the skills to build (and design) such decoders given enough information on the subject ... I don't see any reason why it could be posted to the net now ... John Bass
msk@afinitc.UUCP (12/19/84)
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE Loren et. all, IGNORE ALL THOSE USENETTERS WHO ARE FLAMING YOU! I personally want to express my thanks for your efforts concerning this and all other Usenet problems/concerns! If there is anyone who doubts Laurens's talents/motivations ask someone else about him and what he has done for Usenet/Unix before shooting off your mouth. I think you will find that there is a considerable amount of respect for him, not only on the net but in our whole industry in general! Please, Lauren, don't listen to your non-supporters; they don't know what they are talking about!!! -- -- From the terminal of Morris Kahn (...ihnp4!wucs!afinitc!msk) -- Affinitec, Corp., 2252 Welsch Ind. Ct., St. Louis, MO 63146 (314)569-3450
robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (12/20/84)
>This is to those bozos out there who would pay thousands for an IBM PC >or Mac or whatever and 3 or 4 hundred for Lotus 1-2-3 or MultiPlan or >Dbase II and then would have the gall to flame about a cable-to-RS232 >decoder that costs the same as a phone-to-RS232 modem. You deserve to >get what you pay for! Squeeze those nickels and let the dollars slip >through your fingers! I suspect that many of us pay NOTHING for our access to net news. We have been provided access via a terminal on a system by our employer or university, or else we have paid for access to a system for some other reason and get the net as a bonus. Some of us have actually paid for modem access already, but that doesn't mean we will pay $500 more for ANOTHER (readonly, too) access to the news. I support the satellite experiment, but you don't have to be a bozo to find $500 a lot of money for the readonly net. - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) {allegra, decvax!ittvax, fisher, princeton}!eosp1!robison