mouse@SHAMASH.MCRCIM.MCGILL.EDU (der Mouse) (06/30/90)
Oh dear, I guess it's time for the weekly/monthly/yearly (pick one) Motif-versus-OpenLook squabble. Yes, I'm contributing. But not in support of either Motif or OpenLook per se; I use and will continue to use neither. (This posting is anti-Motif, but can be equally well applied to any proprietary $-required software whose price is bundled into the machine's price.) >> 2) The XView OpenLook toolkit source is freely-redistributable; and >> included with the X11R4 source; you have to pay for Motif. > I pay nothing for Motif (yes it is imbedded in the workstation price) You can't have it both ways. If it's hidden in the price of the machine, you still pay it. > I would not be surprised to see many major customers requiring vendor > supplied Motif libraries in the near future. If I ever buy a workstation...I will require that it *not* come with Motif. I have no interest in paying extra for something I don't want and won't be using. der Mouse old: mcgill-vision!mouse new: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
gjc@mitech.com (07/02/90)
In article <9006300544.AA00451@shamash.McRCIM.McGill.EDU>, mouse@SHAMASH.MCRCIM.MCGILL.EDU (der Mouse) writes: > > If I ever buy a workstation...I will require that it *not* come with > Motif. I have no interest in paying extra for something I don't want > and won't be using. How about it if somebody who has never bought a workstation could just shut up and let the real people talk. How about a serious example of a workstation vendor that provides no window environment or just supports raw-X? A workstation has to come with *some* window software environment, and the least expensive for a vendor to obtain and support is most likely X-Windows with Motif. That is, it has the easiest licensing terms and costs for a hardware vendor to deal with, and is good from the point of view of completeness and portability. It also has the strongest multi-vendor support. And the more vendors you have the more that the costs of supporting and developing the software can be spread around. This lowers the lifetime cost per-user from the point of view of the end user. -gjc
chan@hpfcmgw.HP.COM (Chan Benson) (07/03/90)
> (This posting is anti-Motif, but can be equally well applied to any > proprietary $-required software whose price is bundled into the > machine's price.) Well, then what do you plan to do when you leave your educational institution? Unix is not free, ya know. >> I would not be surprised to see many major customers requiring vendor >> supplied Motif libraries in the near future. > > If I ever buy a workstation...I will require that it *not* come with > Motif. I have no interest in paying extra for something I don't want > and won't be using. Do you own an automobile? Do you smoke? Did you make them rip the cigarette lighter out before you bought it? Anyway, you're not the type of customer being discussed. Companies who buy hundreds of workstations at a pop want system software supported by the company they bought them from (ie. they're one-stop shoppers). Take a vacation from your ivory tower and get a look at the world (aka the military-industrial complex from which the money flows that makes this all possible). -- Chan
mouse@LARRY.MCRCIM.MCGILL.EDU (der Mouse) (07/04/90)
>> If I ever buy a workstation...I will require that it *not* come with >> Motif. I have no interest in paying extra for something I don't >> want and won't be using. > How about it if somebody who has never bought a workstation could > just shut up and let the real people talk. Well excuuuuse me. As it happens I am currently looking for a workstation. I expect I will get a '386 box - and I won't buy a windowing system with it. > How about a serious example of a workstation vendor that provides no > window environment or just supports raw-X? Any cheap DOS box should do fine. Or does that somehow not count as a workstation? > This lowers the lifetime cost per-user from the point of view of the > end user. As I said before, but apparently I need to say again: I won't be using it, so any money at all I have to pay for it is completely wasted. I don't know about you, but I don't appreciate having to waste money. der Mouse old: mcgill-vision!mouse new: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
mouse@LARRY.MCRCIM.MCGILL.EDU (der Mouse) (07/05/90)
>> (This posting is anti-Motif, but can be equally well applied to any >> proprietary $-required software whose price is bundled into the >> machine's price.) > Well, then what do you plan to do when you leave your educational > institution? Unix is not free, ya know. If and when I leave academia, I will write whatever is necessary to have my own OS, entirely free of cost. (In particular, I expect to have to write a kernel. And yes, I do have some idea of the magnitude of the task; I've already done a small-scale kernel.) >> If I ever buy a workstation...I will require that it *not* come with >> Motif. I have no interest in paying extra for something I don't >> want and won't be using. > Do you own an automobile? Do you smoke? Did you make them rip the > cigarette lighter out before you bought it? No and no and not-applicable; sorry to render your analogy pointless. It's an interesting point, though. I would say that a better analogy would be insisting on a stick shift instead of an automatic; a window system is not as minor a component as a cigarette lighter. I don't complain when the workstation comes with wall(1), even though I don't think I've ever used it and don't expect to. > Anyway, you're not the type of customer being discussed. Companies > who buy hundreds of workstations at a pop want system software > supported by the company they bought them from (ie. they're one-stop > shoppers). Oh, so this whole discussion applies only to large buyers? First I've heard of it. If all you're claiming is that someone who buys hundreds of machines at once wants Motif, I have no desire to argue with you nor any arguments ready to bring to bear. Nor do I care whether it's true or not, until someone tries to extrapolate from that to the (incorrect) conclusion that the rest of us also want Motif. > Take a vacation from your ivory tower and get a look at the world > (aka the military-industrial complex from which the money flows that > makes this all possible). And what do the developers in the M-I complex run? GNU emacs, in an X window, on a BSD UNIX based system. It's not as one-way a street as you imply. ( "Private industry? Harold, you're a Latin teacher." "And a damn fine one! I'd be snapped up in a minute!" :-) der Mouse old: mcgill-vision!mouse new: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu