reid@Glacier.ARPA (03/06/85)
This message is primarily a snip back to Karl Kleinpaste, but I suppose I might as well post it because there might be other people like you out there who would benefit from reading it. I'm sure you will pay no attention, actually; people who spend their time discussing firearms and Christian theology are not among the class of folks who usually pay any attention to people like me. First the easy stuff. Karl, please don't justify the right margin of things that you send online. It's harder to read (many studies over 50 to 60 years show this, some even done by Arthur Turnbull at Ohio State) and it uses more bytes. One of the things that I have always liked about Usenet is that it is democratic. An undergraduate student and a full professor have the same voice. A part-time programmer and the president of his company have the same voice. The readers form their own opinions on the basis of what they read, and they ignore (or don't even know) the writer's credentials. We quickly learn that Lauren Weinstein and Dick Grantges and Greg Rogers know what they are talking about, and we quickly learn that certain others do not. Every now and then it becomes important to advertise one's credentials. The reason for this is not always obvious. Oftentimes network discussions are won or lost on the basis of bluster and verbal skill and not sound judgment. Sometimes there are differing versions of the "facts". Sometimes it is important to know whether a writer has a vested interest. But people often don't care about credentials. The new kid on the block with enough energy to stay up all night polishing his prose will probably have more superficial effect than the senior statesman who is in a hurry because he's got to take his teenage son to the hospital. We all have our opinions, we all form our concepts of reality from introspection and from our own experience In face-to-face discourse, the young whippersnappers learn their style in verbal combat with each other and with their elders. When people make a mistake they are sneered at; when people score a victory they are admired. Through years of this process, people learn how to participate in educated discussions. One of the marks of a beginner is that he doesn't understand the limits of his own experience, and incorrectly generalizes from a few data points that he has seen in his young life. One of the things that helps turn beginners into experienced players is the ability to calibrate their own skills against the skills of the people around them. I would like to advise you to keep your mouth shut a little longer. You are obviously a beginner (you right-justify your messages, and you think that experience with one mailing list of 35 members entitles you to make proclamations about mailing lists in general and their relationship to the network). Most of the movers and shakers of the network will have the good sense to ignore you, because they have seen energetic loudmouth beginners many times. However, if nobody tells you that you are acting like an idiot then you will never learn and you will never improve. > Karl Kleinpaste @ Bell Labs, Columbus 614/860-5107 +==-> cbrma!kk > @ Ohio State University 614/422-0915 osu-eddie!karl -- Brian Reid decwrl!glacier!reid Stanford reid@SU-Glacier.ARPA
guido@boring.UUCP (03/09/85)
I was surprised by Brian Reid's response to Karl Kleinpaste. First, he
seemed to be making a very reasonable point: "newcomers on the net
should be educated to know what they don't know". His remarks about
KK's favourite topics and the haughty snub at aligned right margins
("50 or 60 years of experience prove you're wrong") already made me
think he didn't really respect his opponent. The remainder of the
article turned out to be a very severe personal attack, along the lines
of a "customer's complaint letter" once posted to net.jokes.
Brian Reid's attitude agains freshmen doesn't seem to be very mature.
If you see someone fail because he's a newcomer, help him, don't put
him down in this way!
For a better net,
Guido van Rossum, "Stamp Out BASIC" Committee, CWI, Amsterdam
guido@mcvax.UUCP