pjs@aristotle.JPL.NASA.gov (Peter Scott) (09/14/90)
Hi. I'm trying to get some things straight for a seminar I'm presenting shortly... typically, I'm sure about the more detailed and technical stuff but not some of the more general things. I just want to make sure that I'm accurate. We used to run SunView and now we run X11R4 with Motif, so we haven't used most of the things I'm asking about. If I'm wrong on an assertion, please set me right, as long as you're sure of your answer. If I'm way off base keep those flame throwers on simmer, please. Thanks! o Open Look is a look-and-feel put out by Sun and AT&T. It comprises a style guide, widget set, and window manager, just like Motif. The source code for all of these items is freely available via FTP. o SunView is the proprietary windowing system developed by Sun that they originally shipped with their machines. SunTools is the API for SunView. Source code to SunView is not available. Does Sun still support or develop SunView? o NeWS (Network-extensible Windowing System) is based on a PostScript interpreter and is a client-server model like X. It corresponds to the X Protocol/Xlib levels of X. Is the source code available via FTP? Does anyone supply (or run) a pure NeWS server or just the combined X/NeWS Open Windows server? o The Open Look window manager (olwm) can run applications written for NeWS or X. It does this by running a server from Sun called X/NeWS which serves both windowing systems. Is the source code for this server available via FTP? o XView is an X toolkit, from Sun, based on the Open Look GUI. I assume that it therefore contains a Sun version of the Intrinsics and a widget library. How different are calls to XView from calls to Xt? Is the source code available via FTP? o I'm told that Open Look runs applications written for SunView. Do they need to be modified in any way? Does this mean that I could have on one screen a window containing Xrn and a window containing mailtool? What configuration would I need to make that happen? o Xt+ is a toolkit from AT&T based on the X Intrinsics. Is it then a widget library? A widget library plus some additional Xt-like routines? Is it related to OLIT? o The ballyhoo about GUIs on Unix boxes appears to pit Open Look against Motif. Are there any other contenders at this level that run on many architectures? NeXTStep runs on NeXTs and has been licensed by IBM; is IBM shipping iron with NeXTStep running yet? o Open Desktop from SCO is a product like x.desktop from IXI and Looking Glass from Visix that adds a Mac-like icon-based interface to many common Unix commands, e.g., files are icons, and certain operations can be performed on them by moving and/or clicking on their icons. Open Desktop uses mwm. o A tally of applications shipping for different GUIs (_Personal Workstation_, 9/90) shows Open Look eclipsing the competition. Is this lead due to their counting in applications that run under SunView and therefore automatically run under Open Look? What would the tally look like without them? (Tally shows 55 for Open Look vs. 23 for NeXTStep, 22 for OS/2 PM, and 17 for Motif.) o X/Open is nothing to do with the X Window System and is so named merely as a distraction to people trying to keep all this **** terminology straight. :-) -- This is news. This is your | Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech brain on news. Any questions? | (pjs@aristotle.jpl.nasa.gov)
steve@wattres.UUCP (Steve Watt) (09/15/90)
In article <1990Sep13.182045.16787@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> pjs@aristotle.jpl.nasa.gov writes: > >Hi. I'm trying to get some things straight for a seminar I'm presenting No problem, glad to help! [ ... major deletion, I know little about these items ... ] >o The Open Look window manager (olwm) can run applications written for > NeWS or X. It does this by running a server from Sun called X/NeWS > which serves both windowing systems. Is the source code for this > server available via FTP? The window manager is separate from the ability to run NeWS applications, since the server is what does the graphics, not the window manager. [ ... more stuff that I'm likely to chew on my foot if I try to answer ... ] >o The ballyhoo about GUIs on Unix boxes appears to pit Open Look > against Motif. Are there any other contenders at this level > that run on many architectures? NeXTStep runs on NeXTs and > has been licensed by IBM; is IBM shipping iron with NeXTStep > running yet? I guess I'd better take the 5th on this, being an IBM supplemental... >o Open Desktop from SCO is a product like x.desktop from IXI and > Looking Glass from Visix that adds a Mac-like icon-based interface > to many common Unix commands, e.g., files are icons, and certain > operations can be performed on them by moving and/or clicking on > their icons. Open Desktop uses mwm. Uhh... Missed on this one. Open Desktop (TM) is intended to be a complete operating-system/user-interface/anything-that-looks-useful sort of product. It comes in a surprisingly small box, and consists of: UNIX System V release 3 for the 386, with LOTS of enhancements. Locus Computing Corp.'s XSight X11R3 server Lachman Associates' TCP/IP Ingres Database Management Either VP/ix from (of all companies!) Interactive, or maybe DOSMerge from Locus, there seems to have been some indecision about that. X.desktop from IXI Mwm and a few (very few) Motif-ish clients. *No* C compiler, software development tools, or the like. There's probably more that I missed. >o A tally of applications shipping for different GUIs (_Personal > Workstation_, 9/90) shows Open Look eclipsing the competition. > Is this lead due to their counting in applications that run under > SunView and therefore automatically run under Open Look? What would > the tally look like without them? (Tally shows 55 for Open Look vs. > 23 for NeXTStep, 22 for OS/2 PM, and 17 for Motif.) I was interested in finding out as well, but I haven't been able to get through... Please post (or at least e-mail me) if you learn anything about this. >o X/Open is nothing to do with the X Window System and is so named merely > as a distraction to people trying to keep all this **** terminology > straight. :-) Right. Exactly. >-- >This is news. This is your | Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech >brain on news. Any questions? | (pjs@aristotle.jpl.nasa.gov) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nope, just the usual: rn: brain fried -- Core dumped -- By the way: My invocation of the "letters" requires several things: IBM is a copyright of International Business Machines, and I don't speak for them. In fact, I don't speak for me. Also: All other products mentioned probably have some copyrights associated, but I'm not sure why... -- Steve Watt ...!claris!wattres!steve wattres!steve@claris.com also works Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education.
erc@pai.UUCP (Eric Johnson) (09/17/90)
There seems to be a lot of--shall we say--"tense" feelings about the X interface/toolkit wars. I don't really feel I have a vested interest in any side of the war. And, as long as I can get my work done and we get a portable system in the end, I don't really care what the look and feel ends up looking like. I like X, I like NeWS, I like Motif, I like OpenLook, I like PostScript, I like the Macintosh, even though they cost far too much for a PC. What I don't like is all the needless fighting. Well, I hope this is more light than heat. If not, sorry... In article <1990Sep13.182045.16787@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, pjs@aristotle.JPL.NASA.gov (Peter Scott) writes: > > Hi. I'm trying to get some things straight for a seminar I'm presenting > shortly... typically, I'm sure about the more detailed and technical stuff > but not some of the more general things. I just want to make sure that I'm > accurate. We used to run SunView and now we run X11R4 with Motif, so we > haven't used most of the things I'm asking about. If I'm wrong on an > assertion, please set me right, as long as you're sure of your answer. > If I'm way off base keep those flame throwers on simmer, please. Thanks! > > > o Open Look is a look-and-feel put out by Sun and AT&T. It comprises a > style guide, widget set, and window manager, just like Motif. [Open Look is basically a look-and-feel style, I believe. There are at least two toolkits that implement this style, the freely available XView and not-for-free OLIT, the OpenLook Intrinsics Toolkit (to use Sun's name) from AT&T. At least one OpenLook window manager, olwm, is available on the X11R4 contrib tape.] > The source > code for all of these items is freely available via FTP. [Not exactly, see above. I also believe the style guide is published as a book and isn't free (unless you count it as a freebie when you buy the software, like OpenWindows, from Sun).] > o SunView is the proprietary windowing system developed by Sun that they > originally shipped with their machines. SunTools is the API for SunView. > Source code to SunView is not available. Does Sun still support > or develop SunView? [I think Sun is moving to what they call OpenWindows, which is their merged X11/NeWS system. There are a LOT of SunView applications out there (many more commercial SunView apps exist than commercial X apps), so I suspect Sun will at the very least support this for a long time.] > o NeWS (Network-extensible Windowing System) is based on a PostScript > interpreter and is a client-server model like X. [Close enough, I won't quibble. The important thing about NeWS is the realization that the protocol you use to talk to a graphics server is a command language. The NeWS folks then decided to use an explicit language (with subroutines et. al.) for communication to their server. This language is based on PostScript and allows you to download code to the server. This tends to make the server much larger (dynamically) but increases interactive performance for those things you download (since you avoid network transmissions then). Since it is based on PostScript, which is hosted on many printers, it is generally easier to print out portions of the screen, although X tools to this effect have advanced a lot in the last few years.] > It corresponds > to the X Protocol/Xlib levels of X. [I view PostScript as much higher level than the Xlib, but in terms of user-interface abstractions (like widgets), PostScript is probably at a lower level than Xt. With PostScript, you can draw a one-inch- square box. This box will be (approx.) one inch square on every screen or page it is displayed on. With Xlib, this task is a wee bit tougher.] > Is the source code available > via FTP? Does anyone supply (or run) a pure NeWS server or just > the combined X/NeWS Open Windows server? > o The Open Look window manager (olwm) can run applications written for > NeWS or X. It does this by running a server from Sun called X/NeWS > which serves both windowing systems. Is the source code for this > server available via FTP? > > o XView is an X toolkit, from Sun, based on the Open Look GUI. I > assume that it therefore contains a Sun version of the Intrinsics [Nope. XView is really an attempt to port SunView functions to X. That is, if you have a SunView application you want to port to X, XView is probably the easiest way to go. The programmer's function-call interface, or API for the acronym freaks, looks a lot like the SunView API, and not at all like Xt-based toolkits. XView is NOT based on the Xt Intrinsics at all.] > and a widget library. How different are calls to XView from calls > to Xt? Is the source code available via FTP? [XView and Xt are very different. If you want an Xt-based toolkit that implements OpenLook's look-and-feel, use the AT&T toolkit, which Sun calls OLIT. XView source appeared on comp.sources.x, and an earlier version is on the R4 contrib tape, I believe.] > o I'm told that Open Look runs applications written for SunView. Do > they need to be modified in any way? Does this mean that I could > have on one screen a window containing Xrn and a window containing > mailtool? What configuration would I need to make that happen? [Sun's merged X11/NeWS server, called OpenWindows, runs (I believe) SunView, X11 and NeWS apps. OpenWindows comes with two OpenLook toolkits and a NeWS toolkit (tNt--the NeWS toolkit). I haven't freed up the disk space to run OpenWindows 2.0 yet, but I believe the above is still accurate. Yes, old mailtool and xrn could both run under the OpenWindows server, although I think mailtool has been rewritten with XView so that it now has an OpenLook look-and-feel. If you wanted to, you could get OpenWindows and then order Motif froma third party. You could then run Motif and OpenLook apps side by side. Pretty scary, huh? I think there is some major confusion going on here. Remember what you put at the beginning: "Open Look is a look-and-feel put out by Sun and AT&T. It comprises a style guide, widget set, and window manager, just like Motif." How do you run programs under a "look-and-feel"? The whole point is that you don't. Both OpenLook and Motif (at least in their current incarnations) sit on top of the X Window System (ignoring for a momement Sun's X11/NeWS merged system and all other merged systems). So, when you run a Motif application, you are REALLY RUNNING AN X WINDOW APPLICATION. There's nothing to stop you from running a Motif application under an official OpenLook system like Sun's OpenWindows. Now, since a part of each interface (OpenLook and Motif) is a window manger, you won't get your full Motif mileage if you run an OpenLook window manager like olwm. And vice versa. But, there's nothing stopping you from mixing and matching to your heart's content. All of the following toolkits are based on the X library, Xlib: Motif, OLIT and XView. (Motif and OLIT are also based on the Xt Intrinsics.) So, this makes all these toolkits highly portable (with some caveats). I get the distinct impression that many people out there believe that OpenLook and Motif are mutually exclusive. They aren't. Each look and feel looks different, but not by much. Each look and feel has a different window manager, but both claim ICCCM compliance (both do extra things not in the ICCCM, but your apps can still live under the competing window manager). Each look and feel contains a different toolkit (or toolkits), so that means programmers get the headaches, not the users. As an aside, how many of you out there are running an Athena-look-and-feel application called xterm under another (competing) look and feel like Motif or OpenLook? See, you can mix look-and-feels, and you're probably doing it right now.] > o Xt+ is a toolkit from AT&T based on the X Intrinsics. Is it then a > widget library? A widget library plus some additional Xt-like > routines? Is it related to OLIT? > > o The ballyhoo about GUIs on Unix boxes appears to pit Open Look > against Motif. Are there any other contenders at this level > that run on many architectures? NeXTStep runs on NeXTs and > has been licensed by IBM; is IBM shipping iron with NeXTStep > running yet? [The "ballyhoo" of Ooeey Gooeeys on UNIX ignores the fact that SunView still has more applications going for it than X, and also ignores the fact that most X applications can really run under any window manager.] > o Open Desktop from SCO is a product like x.desktop from IXI and > Looking Glass from Visix that adds a Mac-like icon-based interface > to many common Unix commands, e.g., files are icons, and certain > operations can be performed on them by moving and/or clicking on > their icons. Open Desktop uses mwm. [OpenDesktop is really a collection of separate pieces. OpenDesktop includes X.desktop from IXI. It also includes the Motif window manager, the Motif toolkit (in the developer's version) and a relational data base (Ingres) and much, much more.] > o A tally of applications shipping for different GUIs (_Personal > Workstation_, 9/90) shows Open Look eclipsing the competition. [The Personal Workstation tally really annoys me. First, I have yet to see a list of the applications (maybe I missed an issue). Second, they do not count developer tools. The way I view things is applications is applications. Third, they skip SunView, which has zillions of applications (I'm not a fan of SunView at all, since it only runs on Suns, but I like to think I can recognize reality) and other grapgical interfaces. I think their lead-in statement is inaccurate: "This month's list of shipping applications for multitasking operating systems with a graphical user interface includes...", (Sept 1990 Personal Workstation, pg. 14). Aren't there a few DECwindows applications that run under VMS? I certainly don't see any DECwindows charts. How about the Macintosh interface? Its certainly a graphical user interface, and it runs now with A/UX 2.0 and includes a neat application called Commando (a UNIX port of the MPW utility of the same name). Commando puts a friendly interface on UNIX programs like cpio and tar. You click with the mouse in a dialog and build up the command-line options. I can never remember cpio's command-line options and the people who I consider users of the systems I put out generally have a minimal background in UNIX, so I wish I had a program like that. Commando is an application that runs under a multitasking operating system with a graphical user interface. Why isn't it counted? Fourth, I believe computer magazines should help clarify things, not confuse them. I believe the list confuses people by making them believe that you cannot run Motif apps under OpenLook and vice versa. You can.] > Is this lead due to their counting in applications that run under > SunView and therefore automatically run under Open Look? What would > the tally look like without them? (Tally shows 55 for Open Look vs. > 23 for NeXTStep, 22 for OS/2 PM, and 17 for Motif.) [Look in a one of Sun's third-party catalogs and I think you'll see zillions of SunView apps.] > o X/Open is nothing to do with the X Window System and is so named merely > as a distraction to people trying to keep all this **** terminology > straight. :-) [X is a letter of the alphabet and a lot of companies use this letter in their product names. If you want a truly different name, just think, we could be running under the Uncle Framrod Organized (UFO) Window System.] > -- > This is news. This is your | Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech > brain on news. Any questions? | (pjs@aristotle.jpl.nasa.gov) My string opinions are my own. Hope this helps, -Eric -- Eric F. Johnson phone: +1 612 894 0313 BTI: Industrial Boulware Technologies, Inc. fax: +1 612 894 0316 automation systems 415 W. Travelers Trail email: erc@pai.mn.org and services Burnsville, MN 55337 USA