jon@boulder.UUCP (Jonathan Corbet) (04/17/85)
[] Almost a month ago, I posted a request to net.graphics concerning color hardcopy devices (the message I posted is repeated at the end of this article). In the message I indicated that I was currently using Tektronix terminals with attached plotters of unspecified brand and model number. I stated that the situation was unacceptable, since there were severe reliability problems with the plotters. Last Friday, I got a call from the local Tektronix sales rep who (1) offered to sell my one of their fancy $5K (I don't remember the exact price) plotters that was "much more reliable," and (2) informed me that her higher- ups at Tek were not at all pleased that I had posted an article from which people could infer that Tektronix equipment was unreliable, and stated (I paraphrase here) "Tektronix was not planning to take any action against me, but we are increasingly concerned about this kind of posting, and feel that we will have to take action against people who post that sort of message in the future." My question is: did I really do something wrong by posting the article? Granted, I could have expressed myself a little better, but I had just finished fixing the (still unspecified) plotter for the fourth time that week, and I was not in a good mood. I can full document the reliability problems we have experienced with these plotters -- we keep repair logs. I said nothing that was untrue. One of the real strengths of USENET, it seems to me, is the ability to compare notes on both hardware and software, and to make better buying decisions therefrom. However, I certainly would not wish to do anything that would endanger the net, or to expose me, my company, or the net to legal action. So I ask: did I blow it with this article? Finally, I will add this, just in case it makes people feel better: the results of my query indicate that, at this point in time, there is really not anything out there in a reasonable price range that is better than the Tektronix equipment. It does seem to me, however, that Tek has some customer relations problems. Most reputable companies (and Tektronix is certainly a reputable company) will go out of their way to help a customer that is dissatisfied with their product. Tektronix chose to threaten me instead, and I don't appreciate it. If the person in the Tektronix hierarchy (whose name I neglected to obtain) who objected to my posting would like to call me, I would be happy to discuss the problem. Please don't send your sales people after me again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the original article I posted to net.graphics: > From postnews Sat Mar 23 19:31:41 1985 > Subject: Color hardcopy device query > Newsgroups: net.graphics,net.periphs > Distribution: net > > We at NCAR are looking for a color hardcopy device for our graphic > output with the following qualities: > > - At least 500 X 500 resolution > > - Speed: less than a minute for a page would be nice > > - Reliability: frequent breakdowns don't go. > > - Cost: preferably under $10K, but if you know of one for more > that is really good, please pass the info on anyway. > > Currently we have a couple of Tektronix 4107 terminals with attached plotters. > They (the plotters) are simply unacceptable, since (1) they take 10 minutes > to make a copy of the screen, and (2) they are incredibly flakey, breaking > down 2-3 times per week. > > Many thanks for any info you could provide. -- Jonathan Corbet National Center for Atmospheric Research, Field Observing Facility {seismo|hplabs}!hao!boulder!jon (Thanks to CU CS department)
dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) (04/18/85)
Nothing about the article in question seems at all unreasonable. It is
a fair comment on the experiences of one user with Tektronix equipment
and would not in any way deter me from buying a piece of Tektronix
hardware (although I certainly would take reports of problems into
account).
On the other hand, the behavior of Tektronix in threatening a consumer
for reporting difficulties is another matter. I think it's pretty
obvious that they don't have a legal leg to stand on. That's beside the
point. Unless Tektronix offers some indication that this was a mistake
on the part of an overly-zealous sales person, any reasonable person
will have to assume it is official corporate policy.
I am, it happens, a senior computer consultant in one of the major
research universities of the Southeast. I am in part responsible for
advising departments on major purchases of computing and peripheral
equipment. If I believe that a company makes a policy of communicating
threats to its customers, you can rest assured I will take this into
account in my recommendations. If Tektronix would like to discuss the
matter with me, my telephone number is below.
--
D Gary Grady
Duke U Comp Center, Durham, NC 27706
(919) 684-3695
USENET: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgarysmb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (04/19/85)
> [] > > Almost a month ago, I posted a request to net.graphics concerning > color hardcopy devices (the message I posted is repeated at the end of this > article). In the message I indicated that I was currently using Tektronix > terminals with attached plotters of unspecified brand and model number. I > stated that the situation was unacceptable, since there were severe reliability > problems with the plotters. > > Last Friday, I got a call from the local Tektronix sales rep who (1) > offered to sell my one of their fancy $5K (I don't remember the exact price) > plotters that was "much more reliable," and (2) informed me that her higher- > ups at Tek were not at all pleased that I had posted an article from which > people could infer that Tektronix equipment was unreliable, and stated > (I paraphrase here) "Tektronix was not planning to take any action against me, > but we are increasingly concerned about this kind of posting, and feel that we > will have to take action against people who post that sort of message in the > future." > > My question is: did I really do something wrong by posting the article? ..... Posting to the net is like publishing -- if you say nasty false things about someone, you most certainly can get sued -- and rightfully so, I might add. I'm not a lawyer, so take whatever I say with as many kilos of NaCl as you choose; however, in general, truth is an absolute defense against any libel claim. It is recongized that reviews are matters of opinion, and some latitude is extended, so long as it's clear that what you are stating is opinion, and not presented as literal fact. (This is a somewhat controversial area at the moment; an appeals court just reversed a libel judgement against a restaurant critic who panned an eatery, saying things like "the pancakes [for moo shu pork] were as thick as my fingers. But the trial court had held for the restaurant.) So -- if you are going to pan a product, you might want to be sure you can prove what you're saying. (Not that a lawsuit isn't unpleasant and possibly expensive for you, if your company won't pay the bills.) Problems that are likely to be specific to one unit and not a model line should be described as such. In this particular case, since the faulty plotters were not named, you could plausibly argue that you took steps to avoid libel; that might impress a judge, but might not head off a lawsuit.
mrr@rayssd.UUCP (04/19/85)
No - you didn't blow it. One of the great benefits of the net is the access to honest opinions expressed by "real people" regarding product reliability and vendor responsiveness. Don't let anyone bully you. -- Mark R. RInfret, SofTech Inc. Raytheon Co.; Portsmouth RI; (401)-847-8000 x4938 ...!decvax!brunix!rayssd!mrr ...!allegra!rayssd!mrr ...!linus!rayssd!mrr
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (04/20/85)
> "Tektronix was not planning to take any action against me, but we are > increasingly concerned about this kind of posting, and feel that we > will have to take action against people who post that sort of message > in the future." WHAT?? In my humble opinion, Tektronix is >>way<< out of line on this one. You certainly have a right to your opinions, and it seems to me that Usenet is certainly the right place to air them. Companies rely heavily on word of mouth reports to promote their products when they are good. How can they expect the opposite not to occur also? -- allegra!phri!roy (Roy Smith) System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute
rick@uwmacc.UUCP (the absurdist) (04/22/85)
[ the bug that dares not speak its name... ]
What has gone before:
Someone publishes article saying Tektronix plotter is unreliable.
Same person gets nasty phone call from Tek employee, with threats
of legal action if he libels Tek on the net again.
Person then publishes this on the net, asking if he can really
be subject to legal action.
The responses so far:
All seem to assume that Tek approved this Tek employee's threat.
Hello out there?
Like, for sure, it's official company policy everytime YOU
post to the net, or pick up your phone, right? Totally?
I mean, your super is just like hanging on every word you
like, say, and thinks it's just bitchin' to issue these
like, tubular threats to customers. For sure for sure.
Gag me with a spoon.
By now, you may have noticed that the thousands of sites
on the net contain at least a few individuals who do not
seem to be too firmly in touch with reality.
So, if you don't want to watch corporate sites dropping out of the
net, nor be forced to issue a disclaimer everytime you hit
your "r" or "f" keys...
then perhaps it would be wise to assume that people are speaking
for themselves on the net.
--
'And I will do all these good works, and I will do them for free! My
only reward will be a tombstone that says "Here lies Gomez Addams --
he was good for nothing.' " -- from "The Addams Family" by Jack Sharkey
Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rickdgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) (04/23/85)
>All seem to assume that Tek approved this Tek employee's threat.
As a matter of fact, my own posting specifically said "IF this
represents Tektronix policy..." But the point is that if the story is
true as posted, someone CLAIMING to be speaking for Tektronix called.
It would be a good idea if Tektronix made sure its employees did not
engage in threats against its customers. If I go into a store and get
mistreated by a retail clerk, you can darned well believe I'm going to
shop elsewhere.
The question of USENET postings is a completely unrelated matter (most
of the time, anyway). If a retail clerk acts like a jerk when NOT
engaged in trying to sell me something, I'm not going to hold that
against the company.
--
D Gary Grady
Duke U Comp Center, Durham, NC 27706
(919) 684-3695
USENET: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgaryjacob@chalmers.UUCP (Jacob Hallen) (04/23/85)
If Tektronix want to take legal action with any hopes of success you have to deliberatly publish untruths that will cause damage to the company (damage to reputation and/or sales). The truth, as long as no vital information in the case is withheld, is not grounds for legal action. If it was, democracy would be in deep trouble.
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (04/24/85)
> All seem to assume that Tek approved this Tek employee's threat. > [...] Like, for sure, it's official company policy everytime YOU > post to the net, or pick up your phone, right? From the original: > [...] local Tektronix sales rep who (1) offered to sell [...] and > (2) informed me that her higher-ups at Tek were not at all pleased There is a big difference between my posting an article to the net and what happened here. From what I can see, a Tektronix employee IN THE COURSE OF CONDUCTING OFFICIAL COMPANY BUSINESS (i.e. making a sales call) made a comment which certainly sounds like it was implying an official company opinion. To my (not legally trained) mind, a company is responsible for the actions of their employees while they are transacting company business, which seems to be the case here. When I post an article about a subject which is not related to what my company does (biological research) I don't make any effort to imply that my opinions reflect any official company opinions, and, in general, don't give the reader any reason to assume that this is the case. A while ago I posted a "position available" ad to net.jobs; that was a different story. At the time we were looking to hire someone and I used the net to let people know that. That was clearly an example of me acting as an official spokesperson for my employer and it would have been quite reasonable for a reader to assume that. -- allegra!phri!roy (Roy Smith) System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute
chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is Bits) (04/24/85)
Has anybody else had any such response from posting opinions of anybody else's products? Sometimes people get uptight when you appear to be criticizing their baby, but Jonathan Corbet seemed to merely be pointing out that the plotters did not meet his requirements: although the reliability issue might be one to take up directly with Tektronix, the speed issue is independent of vendor. Perhaps the information that he'd posted something was what had travelled down the chain to the sales rep, not the actual message? Neither of these issues is one I would want to bring up with a vendor-specific sales rep. They can tell me if they carry another, faster product, but they certainly can't speak for the competition, and at best they can refer me to a service department about reliability concerns. If postings like this are going to get squashed, what about unfavorable reviews of books and movies, here and in magazines? If critiques are disallowed, well, then I guess none of us ever need worry about debugging anything again? Hooooray! :-( L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752
brooks@lll-crg.ARPA (Eugene D. Brooks III) (04/25/85)
> Almost a month ago, I posted a request to net.graphics concerning > color hardcopy devices (the message I posted is repeated at the end of this > article). In the message I indicated that I was currently using Tektronix > terminals with attached plotters of unspecified brand and model number. I > stated that the situation was unacceptable, since there were severe reliability > problems with the plotters. > > Last Friday, I got a call from the local Tektronix sales rep who (1) > offered to sell my one of their fancy $5K (I don't remember the exact price) > plotters that was "much more reliable," and (2) informed me that her higher- > ups at Tek were not at all pleased that I had posted an article from which > people could infer that Tektronix equipment was unreliable, and stated > (I paraphrase here) "Tektronix was not planning to take any action against me, > but we are increasingly concerned about this kind of posting, and feel that we > will have to take action against people who post that sort of message in the > future." > I would suggest dealing with such sales persons by asking for the name and phone number of their supervisor. I would then call he/she boss and complain about the rather coarse threating manner in which the sales staff is treating customers. I would reccomend to the manager that if such treatment by sales people continues that you would not buy any more tek products and that you would also reccomend to every one in netland to not buy tek products until their sales staff learns to treat customers better. Do you hear me over there in tekland? If you know what is good for sales you will FIRE said sales person.
tim@cithep.UucP (Tim Smith ) (04/30/85)
If the plotters ( unspecified brand ) where NOT from Tektronix, then you
at least partly blew it, since your original article makes it sound like,
they are, and from the other responses on the net, most poeple seem to
have interpreted it that way.
--
"Just use your nuro-linguistic-programming to set up
the right morpho-genetic field, and the rest is easy"
Tim Smith
ihnp4!{wlbr!callan,cithep}!timpaulh@tektronix.UUCP (Paul Hoefling) (05/04/85)
I can say that under no circumstances is it Tektronix policy to threaten our
customers. I have talked to the District Service manager involved with this
particular incident, and he assured me that "the problem had been cleared up
at their end". I will not hazard a guess as to whether the cause of the
incident was a misunderstanding, or the act of an over-zealous sales person,
but I think the net should know that it's not Tek policy. Can we lay this
to rest now ?
Paul Hoefling
Information Pack Rat
uucp: {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax,zehntel}!tektronix!paulh
--
Paul Hoefling
Information Pack Rat
uucp: {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax,zehntel}!tektronix!paulh