rob@lafayet.UUCP (Rob Freyder) (08/15/90)
We are looking at setting up some AT and 386 boxes as X Workstations. We know we might be dreaming trying to do this with an AT but we figured we had better investigate it anyway. We are aware of the packages from the following people. Graphic Software Systems Interactive Systems Locus Computing Can Anyone comment on X products from the 3 above or others that they have used ? We would be interested in a site license and would need to set these systems up with tcp/ip. thanks. -- Rob Freyder Core Laboratories a division of ____ ____ ____ Western Atlas International Inc. \ \ / /\ / /\ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- \ \/ / \ / / \ Humans (318) 235-9431 \ / / \ / /\ \ Internet rob@lafayet.UUCP \/___/ \/___/ \___\ Bang ...!uunet!rouge!lafayet!rob
ingersol@milton.u.washington.edu (Steve Ingersoll) (08/16/90)
I am currently running Graphic Software Systems PC-X view V1.2 on a Zenith 12mhz 386 with 2mb of memory. The network software I am using is ftp PC/TCP Network Software for DOS. I am also running 4DOS 3.01. The only problems I have seen are: 1) Sometimes I can only move a window in one direction at a time (left right or up down). 2) Exit to DOS does not give me the 4DOS commands ( I have not investigated this problem very much ). Overall the performance is very good in comparison with the NCD terminals. I also understand that they have fixed some problems with the new release as well as increased the performance. Steve Ingersoll University of Washington Seattle Washington ingersoll@cac.washington.edu
cogan@eng.umd.edu (Richard Cogan) (08/17/90)
I use locus computing X server, Xsight, release 2.0 on a gateway 2000 25mhz running DOS 3.3, I have an ATI VGA 1024 video card and a 3Com 3c501(yes I know only 8 bit). Xsight runs okay but is very slow (I'm used to a SUN 360s and DECstations running X11R4). Since my video card has 512k memory I can create a virtual window bigger than my actual screen size. I only have two real problems with it. 1) There is no way to unload the locus TCP/IP drivers from memory without rebooting the computer. Since the computer is not a standalone X terminal this gets to be a pain because I have to switch autoexec.bat and config.sys files. 2) The version that I have does not specifically support my video card. If it did I would get better results out of Xsight. Locus has not informed me as to whether there is a newer version that supports my video card. Rich Cogan CALCE Center University of Maryland e-mail: cogan@eng.umd.edu
kempff@hppad.HP.COM (John Kempff) (08/17/90)
> We are looking at setting up some AT and 386 boxes as X Workstations. We > know we might be dreaming trying to do this with an AT but we figured we had > better investigate it anyway. > > Rob Freyder No you are not dreaming. HP has a product called AXDS/PC (HP part # D2300B). It allows the user to display/connect to X windows applications over a TCP/IP ethernet LAN. This product makes use of a high performance graphic card based on the TI34010 processor. This allowed HP to over come the performance limitations of the 286 processor. With this the product the X window server is executed by the TI processor. The 286 is delegated to handle LAN, disk, keyboard and mouse I/O operations. I have even run this product on a TRUE BLUE 4.77MHz PC, its usable but just. (IMHO and HP's this product is only recommended for AT type PC or faster.) If you want more information on this product contact your local HP sales rep. or office. John Kempff | ## ## | ######## / ######## X Windows Support Eng. | # # | ####### / ####### Panacom Automation Div. | # | ###### /_ __ ###### H E W L E T T Waterloo, Ontario, Canada | # | ##### / / / / ##### | # # | ##### / / /__/ ##### Email:kempff@hppad.hp.com | ## ## | ###### / ###### P A C K A R D Phone:(519) 886-5320 | | ####### / ####### FAX: (519) 886-8620 | TERMINAL | ########/ ######## This response does not represent the official position of, or statement by, the Hewlett-Packard Company. The above data is provided for informational purposes only. It is supplied without warranty of any kind. In particular, availability dates of unreleased products may change without notice.
benny@vlss.amdahl.com (Benny Schnaider) (08/28/90)
To: Rob Freyder Core Laboratories From: Len Jacobson, Amdahl Corporation (len@vlss.amdahl.com) I have been using XVision from VisionWare, Ltd., on a 286, using FTP's PC/TCP communications software via a 3COM 3C503 Ethernet board. For one that does not need to work "heavily" within the X environment, I find it an excellent solution. It requires Microsoft Windows (I am using 3.0). That means that I have my normal PC windows and I have "X" windows. Actually, XVision works in either "multi-window" or "single-window" mode. The "multi" means that each X client has its own Microsoft window and that Microsoft Windows handles much of the windowing -- more efficient that way. The "single" approach means there is one X window, inside of which you have as many X clients as you wish (see caveat later). I actually prefer working this way, as it is closer to the real X feel. Nonetheless, you should realize that the more efficient way is "multi" windowing. Since the PC is color, the X, naturally, provides color. With one exception, I have not had any problem with the color. It has only been an asset. The one exception is FrameMaker -- just yesterday I tried for the first time to use it and it complained that the colors weren't setup correctly. I haven't tried to resolve this yet, but I assume it will be no problem. So far as running on a 286, it is slow in setting up the environment. It takes about 60 sections before I see my first X window. On a 386, I assume it would be much faster. Until I get all my windows set up just the way I like takes about 1 1/2 minutes more. Once set up, I have two mailbox windows, one to a Sun workstation and one to a mainframe, I have a "manual browser" from another mainframe, I have a "workload" figure from a Sun, and I have four working windows, two on Suns and two on mainframes, these last two using "tn3270" to give me true 3270 compatibility. And that works nicely, too. Again, but for setup, I think the response is fine. I have good control of moving windows around, resizing them, iconizing them, opening them up, etc. By the way, my screen is a MultiSync 3D, with a video adapter from Video Seven, 512K video RAM. This provides 1024x768 resolution. It means I can devote one half of my screen to PC and one half to X, and the X side is wide enough to give me a full 80x24 character screen. The size of the lettering is small, but I can live with it. I think a better solution, however, would be to have a 16" or even 19" monitor. I'm looking into that now. The only big problem that I have is that XVision has a limit, unfortunately, of only ten X clients. For a serious user, that is a very bad limitation. Additionally, a bug in the system causes it to die a most unglorious death when you try to create the eleventh client. As my mother would say, "You shouldn't know from such things." PC/TCP from FTP, however, allows you to set a limit on the number of TCP/IP connections, and this precludes my ever asking for the eleventh client. Visionware is aware of the bug and is coming out with a correction. They also recognize that ten clients is a very low number. They aren't saying when they'll have a version allowing more than ten. That's about it. In summary, it's a very good solution for one who has strong ties to the PC world, but needs a "window" (no pun intended) to the X world.
ti@altos86.Altos.COM (Ti Kan) (08/29/90)
In article <BENNY.90Aug27102543@dimona.vlss.amdahl.com> benny@vlss.amdahl.com (Benny Schnaider) writes: >I have been using XVision from VisionWare, Ltd., on a 286, using FTP's >PC/TCP communications software via a 3COM 3C503 Ethernet board... I, too, have been using XVision (v3.0) on a 16MHz 386, with FTP's PC/TCP and 3COM 3C503. My video adapter is an Orchid Prodesigner VGA with 512K memory. Monitor is NEC Multisync 3D. The only real difference between your setup and mine is that I have Windows 2.0 (both the 286 and the 386 versions). I have not been altogether happy with this setup. Performance, in my opinion, is abysmal. This is especially bad if you run XVision in the single-window mode (and use a UNIX window manager instead), or if Windows/286 is used. The only nice advantage to using XVision over other PC X-window packages is the ability to concurrently run DOS applications in an MS-window and X client windows. You do pay dearly in sacrificing performance to get this. I also have not been able to get into any more screen resolution than 640x480 and 8 colors with XVision. From all the documentation that I read about XVision and MS-Windows, I could not find a way to reconfigure it. Maybe I am overlooking something. I have since switched to using Locus' PC-XSight X Window package, and Locus' TCP/IP for the PC. This package, compared to XVision, flat out screams. It is seems more than 10x the speed! Moreover, I can use UNIX window managers like mwm, and have true X window look-and-feel. PC-XSight allows you to pop into DOS in full-screen mode, suspending X, and can resume back when the DOS session is done. This is not as nice as XVision, but I can live with this given the vast performance advantage. PC-Xsight isn't perfect, however, occasionally my X server would hang (popping into DOS is possible, but the X session cannot be resumed), and requires rebooting the PC (and restarting xdm on the UNIX host) to recover. I have also tried to use GSS Software's PC-XView, but for some reason I couldn't get it to work. I can get into the X-window screen, but the UNIX host cannot get any clients started on it. I assume it was configuration problem, but since I had Locus' product working reasonably well, I abandoned trying to get this package to work. It would be interesting though, to see how well it stacks up against PC-XSight. -Ti -Ti -- Ti Kan \\\ vorsprung durch technik! \\\ Internet: ti@altos.com /// \\\ UUCP: ...!{sun|sco|pyramid|amdahl|uunet}!altos!ti ////////\
gaf@uucs1.UUCP (gaf) (08/30/90)
In article <3868@altos86.Altos.COM> ti@altos86.UUCP (Ti Kan) writes: >PC-Xsight isn't perfect, however, >occasionally my X server would hang (popping into DOS is possible, but >the X session cannot be resumed), and requires rebooting the PC >(and restarting xdm on the UNIX host) to recover. Something else to think about on this subject. When using Locus' TCP, rebooting the PC with running clients is dangerous. The clients don't know that the PC (Server) rebooted and dropped their connections, so they keep right on talking to it. When the next incarnation of the server comes up, Locus' TCP hangs when one of these clients from the previous session sends data to it. Big problem, and no good way out of it. We've since switched to FTP's TCP, which properly sends a TCP-level reset back to any client (connection) it doesn't know about. The client goes away cleanly (perhaps only complaining about its connection being lost), and the server keeps running. >I have also tried to use GSS Software's PC-XView, but for some reason >I couldn't get it to work. We've also used GSS PC-Xview, but with better results. We're using a DGIS board and it's *lots* faster than the Super-VGA (Orchid ProDesigner Plus) server used on Locus' PC-Xsight. It does take a lot of fiddling to set up, though. The main problem with VGA servers (even the one on Interactive Unix) seems to be in bit-blt operations. For reasons I don't understand, they're very slow. Too slow for our customers. We've replaced the VGAs in Unix with 8514's, and in PC's with DGIS. -- Guy Finney It's that feeling of deja-vu UUCS inc. Phoenix, Az all over again. ncar!noao!asuvax!hrc!uucs1!gaf sun!sunburn!gtx!uucs1!gaf
sasjcm@segovia.unx.sas.com (James McNealy) (09/18/90)
In article <520@lafayet.UUCP>, rob@lafayet.UUCP (Rob Freyder) writes: > Can Anyone comment on X products from the 3 above or others that > they have used ? We would be interested in a site license and > would need to set these systems up with tcp/ip. I have been looking into this for our QA dept. I saw a demo of a product here at the institute called HCL-eXceed Plus, from Hummingbird Communications ltd. It was used with FTP's PC/TCP product. HCL-eXceed requires: o An IBM AT or 386 based PC o 640K RAM below 1 Mb. o minimum 1 Mb RAM above 1 Mb. o EGA or VGA o Microsoft mouse o hard disk (no size spec.) o network card that handles tcp/ip We found that the system above worked well with most of the X systems at the institute. I'm not sure of the cost for a site license, I will be investigating this issue soon. Hummingbird is in Ontario Canada and can be reached at (416)470-1207.
andy@mks.com (Andy Toy) (09/19/90)
In article <1990Sep18.125046.29733@unx.sas.com> sasjcm@segovia.unx.sas.com (James McNealy) writes: >I have been looking into this for our QA dept. I saw a demo of a product >here at the institute called HCL-eXceed Plus, from Hummingbird >Communications ltd. It was used with FTP's PC/TCP product. I am using it with SUN Microsystems' PC-NFS. >HCL-eXceed requires: > o An IBM AT or 386 based PC > o 640K RAM below 1 Mb. > o minimum 1 Mb RAM above 1 Mb. I only have one Mbyte of RAM in my AT and it works. > o EGA or VGA I am using it with an ATI VGA Wonder card on a NEC Multisync GS, but the output on someone else's Princeton MAX-15 looks noticably better. > o Microsoft mouse > o hard disk (no size spec.) > o network card that handles tcp/ip Note that HCL-eXceed and HCL eXceed Plus are differnent products. -- Andy Toy, Mortice Kern Systems Inc., Internet: andy@mks.com 35 King Street North, Waterloo, UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!andy Ontario, CANADA N2J 2W9 Phone: 519-884-2251 FAX: 519-884-8861
nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson) (10/01/90)
From: sasjcm@segovia.unx.sas.com (James McNealy) >I have been looking into this for our QA dept. I saw a demo of a product >here at the institute called HCL-eXceed Plus, from Hummingbird >Communications ltd. It was used with FTP's PC/TCP product. HCL-eXceed requires: > o An IBM AT or 386 based PC > o 640K RAM below 1 Mb. > o minimum 1 Mb RAM above 1 Mb. > o EGA or VGA > o Microsoft mouse > o hard disk (no size spec.) > o network card that handles tcp/ip > >We found that the system above worked well with most of the X systems at >the institute. I'm not sure of the cost for a site license, I will be >investigating this issue soon. >Hummingbird is in Ontario Canada and can be reached at (416)470-1207. When I called that number I got a modem carrier. Is it a real company or is it "two guys in their basement"? Actually, I don't really care. I'm looking for a (hopefully) cheap X client-server combo that I can use to play around with on my PC (386SX, 42M H.D., 4M RAM, MSDOS 3.3). Hopefully some reasonable facsimile of Xlib and some widgets. I'm basically looking for an educational tool. We already have a perfectly good implementation of X here at work but I never seem to have time to play with it since I'm often overcome with a perverse desire to actually do "work". Moreover, my wife, who was recently laid-off from DG and who already has good X skills would like to keep her hand in it while she looks for a new job. (Actually she mostly worked with Motif, but I suppose a PC implementation of Motif would be asking too much!) So what's the story? What's out there for X on PC's? Thanks in advance for any pointers. ---Peter
gaspo@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Scott Gasparian) (10/01/90)
Well, I'll through my $.02 in. Here's what we use: GSS PCXview/16, X-server. FTP Software's PC/TCP kernel only Machines include 286@12 and original AT, 386@25 First of all, if you don't have any extended memory, forget it. Two xterms and a wm are all you'll get up. 2-4 megs will be fine, and 4 has been more than enough for anything and everything you could want. Second, VGA or higher. forget ega. (<-period). Haven't seen it on a DIGA or SVGA. (I'm using a 512k VGA and it's great). Drawback is 16 colors only. Use a fast ethernet card. We use WD's 8013EBT (16bit) cards. 8bits tend to be too-slow. Fonts are local on the PC, and comes with satandard adobe sets. I've compiled all sorts of others w/o any problems (kana14, etc...). These are the machines I've used to use as clients w/o any problems: DEC5000, Ultrix 4.0 r176, XR3 and XR4 Sun 3/60, 3.5, XR3 (I think). Sun SPARC, 4.0 XR4 VAX6000, Ultrix32 v3.1b rev10, XR? and a slew of others. Mind you, this is just a server. No local crunching done. All in all, decent, relativelly cheap way to get some use out of the old AT's we had laying around. Adress: Graphic Software Systems, Inc. 9590 SW Gemini Dr. Beaverton, OR 97005 503-641-2200 Ask for Nancy Kirkpatrick, and tell her I sent you. #include </stnd/disclaimer/theydontpayme.ipaythem> /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Scott "gaspo" Gasparian - Teenage Mutant Ninja Technician | "back user!"| | Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |\ ,_ _/\ | | 400 SCL, F.S.U., Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 |/ _/ '__ \| | gaspo@ds1.scri.fsu.edu | "I do NOT do lunch, I do NOT ||/ / ,," __o/| | gaspo@scri1.scri.fsu.edu | wear 'power ties', and I do | \_\|_\, / | | (904) 644-4277 / 222-5630 | NOT EVER do COBOL! Get it?!" | /+-+-\ _/\_ | \----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
andy@mks.com (Andy Toy) (10/03/90)
In article <4d238f0b.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson) writes: >>Hummingbird is in Ontario Canada and can be reached at (416)470-1207. > > When I called that number I got a modem carrier. Is it a real > company or is it "two guys in their basement"? The number above is their FAX number. Their VOX number is 416-470-1203. > So what's the story? What's out there for X on PC's? Thanks in > advance for any pointers. Since you have a 386 PC, you should be able to run X server and clients under UNIX. X is available for PCs running System V/386 from various vendors such as ISC, SCO, Everex,... I have only seen X server software for PCs running DOS. -- Andy Toy, Mortice Kern Systems Inc., Internet: andy@mks.com 35 King Street North, Waterloo, UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!andy Ontario, CANADA N2J 2W9 Phone: 519-884-2251 FAX: 519-884-8861
stever@Octopus.COM (Steve Resnick ) (10/04/90)
In article <4d2d6d99.28499@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson) writes: > > > From: andy@mks.com (Andy Toy) > >>> So what's the story? What's out there for X on PC's? Thanks in >>> advance for any pointers. >> >>Since you have a 386 PC, you should be able to run X server and clients >>under UNIX. X is available for PCs running System V/386 from various >>vendors such as ISC, SCO, Everex,... I have only seen X server >>software for PCs running DOS. > > > But then I have to use UNIX. Not that I mind UNIX for certain > things, after all, it's the OS I use at work. But I use DOS > at home because I want to take advantage of the apps which are > available for DOS. > > [ And I hope nobody buys that horseshit about "DOS > compatibility mode" -- I have Windows 3.0 and Desqview > and neither one of them can run 80% of the DOS apps > I use regularly-- either because the ones I use do > graphics and take over the hardware, or because they > play games with DMA and IRQ's as with backup and other > utilities. I have no reason to assume that UNIX with > a DOS compatibility mode would do any better! ] > > So anyway I posted my question a week or so ago -- and is this > the consensus? That there currently IS no X client/server combo > for PC's running DOS except for the to-be-released QuarterDeck > product? Does anyone know anything about their product like > cost or system requirements? Thanks in advance. > > ---Peter The leaflet I have here, says DESQview X will run on an 8086 with 640K, but I think you will be EXTREMELY limited. You will probably do better on a 2-4MB 80386. (This is what they ran at their announcement). I don't know about cost, I will guess that it's going to be somewhere around $200-$250. Cheers! Steve -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- steve.resnick@f105.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG - or - apple!camphq!105!steve.resnick Flames, grammar errors, spelling errrors >/dev/nul ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
exl@proteon.COM (Eugene X. Lummelsky) (10/04/90)
I would like to pay your attention on PC WEEK\SOFTWARE from August 27, 1990 (page 39). It talks about two products: 1. releasing alpha versions of QuarterDeck's Desqview/X, which can run both, DOS and X Window applications, on either a PC or an X Window workstation. (213)392-9851 2. shipment of XVision 3.0 (Microsoft Windows-based X server)-from UniPress Softweare, Edison, N.J.(201)985-8000, $449.00. Unlike Desqview/X it can not run DOS applications on Unix workstation. Basic requirements: 80286 min., Microsoft Windows (v.286, or 386 version 2.0 or later). There is also PC-XView from GSS (503)641-2455, $295 (cheap, isn't it?). This one is just an emulator of XWindow System, v.11. Too cheap to be true. I've read one email that if you don't have any extended memory all you will have is two xterms and a wm. 2-4 megs will be fine, VGA or higher. Good luck, --- Eugene P.S. We are about to place P/O on #1 and #2. Give me a call if you need more info. (508)898-2800, x2583.
unhd (Roger Gonzalez ) (10/04/90)
>Since you have a 386 PC, you should be able to run X server and clients >under UNIX. X is available for PCs running System V/386 from various >vendors such as ISC, SCO, Everex,... I have only seen X server >software for PCs running DOS. I just got the glossies for DESQview 386/X, which operates as both server and client. It looks great, but "until spring" it is still vaporware. -Roger -- "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim" - Edsgar W. Dijkstra rg@unhd.unh.edu | UNH Marine Systems Engineering Laboratory r_gonzalez@unhh.bitnet | Durham, NH 03824-3525
werner@aecom.yu.edu (Craig Werner) (10/07/90)
Back in the spring at PC Expo, they said October. Well, it's
October. Does anybody know whether its just a question of it not being
Bug-free yet, or whether they are just so overwhelmed getting the DPMI
compatible version of Desqview-386 out (5.1/2.3) that they are waiting
for the dust to settle?
--
Craig Werner (future MD/PhD, 5.5 years down, 2.5 to go)
werner@aecom.YU.EDU -- Albert Einstein College of Medicine
(1935-14E Eastchester Rd., Bronx NY 10461, 212-931-2517)
"Doonesbury is more important than self-respect."