jaf@inference.COM (Jose Fernandez) (01/22/91)
From: sundar@ai.mit.edu (Sundar Narasimhan)
Subject: Re: Motif/Openlook, is there a trend?
SunExpert's January issue claims Workstation GUI breakup to be Motif
62.2%, OpenWindows 29.7%, DECWindows 2.7%, PM 2.7% and SunView 2.7%. In
Desktop GUI the breakup is given as Windows 52.9%, Motif 26.5%, PM 14.7%,
OpenWindows 5.9%.
I wish velocities were included with positions. That is, MOTIF's share is
rising/falling, OW's share is rising/falling etc. If someone were willing to
post this, I think it would be Really Great.chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) (01/22/91)
In article <DWF.91Jan20173950@nohope.acl.lanl.gov>, dwf@acl.lanl.gov (Dave Forslund) writes: > In article <12868@life.ai.mit.edu> sundar@ai.mit.edu (Sundar Narasimhan) writes: > SunExpert's January issue claims Workstation GUI breakup to be Motif 62.2%, > OpenWindows 29.7%, DECWindows 2.7%, PM 2.7% and SunView 2.7%. > In Desktop GUI the breakup is given as Windows 52.9%, Motif 26.5%, PM 14.7%, > OpenWindows 5.9%. > > They site International Data Corp as the source for these numbers, and > the article claims that polls indicate that Motif will be the long term > winner. I would question these numbers, if only because the SunView number is so low. There must be thousands of SunView sites still operating, given the lethargy of the average site in upgrading to new software. While the SunView count is declining, I find it almost impossible to believe that it has dwindled to 2.7% so quickly. What are these numbers, anyway? Site in use? Dollar volume of shipped product? > I can't vouch for or against these numbers, but this article in the > January issue of SunExpert shows a poor understanding of the > difference between OpenWindows and Motif. This comparison is sort of > apples and oranges. The correct comparison should be between OpenLook > and Motif. The article claims the Motif is more "open" than > OpenWindows because it is cheaper. But OpenWindows is a complete > implementation of X11 and News, while Motif is just a GUI. OpenLook > is available for free via ftp from MIT in the XView toolkit, while > Motif must be purchased and a license for each CPU must be paid. > OpenLook is also available from AT&T. I would like to see an unbiased > report of a proper comparison of OpenLook and Motif. It has been my experience while dealing with SunExpert that they have a significant Motif bias (I have no idea why) and a poor understanding of many Sun issues, including compiler unbundling and window systems in general. I would take anything they say with a grain of salt. The only numbers I trust are Personal Workstation's applications count, which gives OPEN LOOK the lead, 65 apps to 28 (I think). The bottom line is that neither interface is going away anytime soon. Your best bet is to learn both. -- Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131 Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 729-2537 A good newspaper is never good enough, but a lousy newspaper is a joy forever. -- Garrison Keillor
saunders@gesundheit.West.Sun.COM (Gene Saunders) (01/22/91)
For a different point of view, see any issue of Personal Workstation in the past year or so; they claim to only track end-user applications (no developer or programming tools). The latest one I have (December 1990, page 16) gives this breakdown: OpenLook Motif NeXT OS/2 PM office tools 20 9 3 4 word process 12 1 5 3 spreadsheet 4 3 2 2 communic/LAN 5 3 2 5 graphics 9 2 2 4 database 3 4 3 4 engineering 7 6 6 0 ----------- total 60 28 23 22 Personal Workstation goes on to suggest that if you know of apps shipping that they haven't listed (I don't know of a cumulative index .. each issue shows only the new entries), to drop them a line: 501 Galveston Drive, Redwood City, California 94063. Me? I'm just the messenger. In article <DWF.91Jan20173950@nohope.acl.lanl.gov> dwf@acl.lanl.gov writes: >In article <12868@life.ai.mit.edu> sundar@ai.mit.edu (Sundar Narasimhan) writes: > SunExpert's January issue claims Workstation GUI breakup to be Motif 62.2%, > OpenWindows 29.7%, DECWindows 2.7%, PM 2.7% and SunView 2.7%. > In Desktop GUI the breakup is given as Windows 52.9%, Motif 26.5%, PM 14.7%, > OpenWindows 5.9%. > > They site International Data Corp as the source for these numbers, and > the article claims that polls indicate that Motif will be the long term > winner. -- Gene Saunders \ gene.saunders@West.Sun.COM \ gsaunders@sun.com Sun Microsystems \ saunders@sunkist (local) \ ..!uunet!sun!gsaunders --- Views stated herein are my own .. my company wants nothing to do with me.
abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) (01/23/91)
From article <1335@west.West.Sun.COM>, by saunders@gesundheit.West.Sun.COM (Gene Saunders): > For a different point of view, see any issue of Personal Workstation in > the past year or so; they claim to only track end-user applications (no > developer or programming tools). The latest one I have (December 1990, > page 16) gives this breakdown: > > OpenLook Motif NeXT OS/2 PM > > office tools 20 9 3 4 > word process 12 1 5 3 > spreadsheet 4 3 2 2 > communic/LAN 5 3 2 5 > graphics 9 2 2 4 > database 3 4 3 4 > engineering 7 6 6 0 > ----------- > total 60 28 23 22 > I attended this year's X conference and in the tutorial I attended on application builders/UIMS, the question was posed as to who was building products, etc using Motif vs OpenLook. Out of probably some 200+ people in the room, the majority (maybe 80%) were using Motif and maybe few dozen were using OpenLook. Kind of interesting, albeit not very scientific, statistics... art stine sr network engineer clarkson u abstine@hobbes.erc.clarkson.edu
willis@ecovsb.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) (01/24/91)
--
This all appears to be a very interesting discussion of how many
ways to count something. As someone who purchases a lot of workstations
this is how we count:
If I specify vendor supported Motif in a purchase specification
I get responses from lots of vendors of machines utilizing
different architectures... Lots of options to choose from
in terms of performance range, architecture, risc/cisc, etc.
I can make my decision based on who can help me the most
and support my needs. The list includes some large vendors
with a long history of product support and service.
If I specify OpenWindows I get a response from Sun and
a few Sparc clones. No options, no choices...
We believe that Sun (and clones) are vaild choices when we need to purchase
workstations, but I'll be damned if I will let a GUI significantly reduce our
choices of architecture and vendor when time to purchase, nor will I let a
vendor's refusal to support what we specify inflict multiple or mixed
interfaces on our users.
If there was a single reason for the success of the Macintosh, it was a
consistent
user interface. If we are to have one, it will require committment from those
who purchase systems, not those who argue that theirs is best.
Until Sun comes around, we'll try to provide Motif for our Suns ourselves.
We will lean heavily toward the purchase of applications which utilize Motif
and reject those which do not whenever possible. If our effort to support Motif
becomes too great, we will buy workstations from vendors who provide it for
us.....
Bill Willis, Director willis@ecovsa.ncsu.edu
Engineering Computer Operations willis%ecovsa@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu
Box 7901, School of Engineering
North Carolina State University
(919) 737-2458
We have met the enemy, and they are us --- Pogostripes@eng.umd.edu (Joshua Osborne) (01/24/91)
In article <9101221559.AA16978@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>, abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) writes: > From article <1335@west.West.Sun.COM>, by saunders@gesundheit.West.Sun.COM (Gene Saunders): [...] > > OpenLook Motif NeXT OS/2 PM [...] > > total 60 28 23 22 > > I attended this year's X conference and in the tutorial I attended on > application builders/UIMS, the question was posed as to who was building > products, etc using Motif vs OpenLook. Out of probably some 200+ people in > the room, the majority (maybe 80%) were using Motif and maybe few dozen > were using OpenLook. Kind of interesting, albeit not very scientific, > statistics... Mabie the people using Motif arn't done yet, while the other 20% are... :-) (all jokeing aside, Motif does _try_ to do a good job documating Motif, where Sun just relyes on O' Reilly Vol 7 to teach you everything...) -- stripes@eng.umd.edu "Security for Unix is like Josh_Osborne@Real_World,The Multitasking for MS-DOS" "The dyslexic porgramer" - Kevin Lockwood "CNN is the only nuclear capable news network..." - lbruck@eng.umd.edu (Lewis Bruck)
xev@gte.com (Xev Gittler) (01/24/91)
In <1991Jan22.235318.2483@vicorp.com> abstine@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) writes: >From article <1335@west.West.Sun.COM>, by saunders@gesundheit.West.Sun.COM (Gene Saunders): >> OpenLook Motif NeXT OS/2 PM >> ----------- >> total 60 28 23 22 >> >I attended this year's X conference and in the tutorial I attended on >application builders/UIMS, the question was posed as to who was building >products, etc using Motif vs OpenLook. Out of probably some 200+ people in >the room, the majority (maybe 80%) were using Motif and maybe few dozen >were using OpenLook. Kind of interesting, albeit not very scientific, >statistics... I was there too, and I noticed that quite a few of those that raised their hands for OpenLook had `Sun Microsystem' on their badges. I have spoken too or heard from people who are developing applications for large companies as well as purchasing software for large companies, and everything that I heard points to the fact that they think Motif will win because of the MASSIVE base of people who already know PM and can pick up Motif with very little effort. I think that it will be these really large companies that choose Motif that will cause it to win the war. -- Xev Gittler xev@bunny.gte.com
n025fc@tamuts.tamu.edu (Kevin Weller) (01/24/91)
In article <1991Jan23.164403@ecovsb.ncsu.edu> willis@ecovsb.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) writes:
[paragraph deleted]
If I specify vendor supported Motif in a purchase specification
I get responses from lots of vendors of machines utilizing
different architectures... Lots of options to choose from
in terms of performance range, architecture, risc/cisc, etc.
I can make my decision based on who can help me the most
and support my needs. The list includes some large vendors
with a long history of product support and service.
If I specify OpenWindows I get a response from Sun and
^^^^^^^^^^^
a few Sparc clones. No options, no choices...
[several paragraphs deleted]
Bill Willis, Director willis@ecovsa.ncsu.edu
Engineering Computer Operations willis%ecovsa@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu
Box 7901, School of Engineering
North Carolina State University
(919) 737-2458
We have met the enemy, and they are us --- Pogo
I think this discussion is about Motif vs. Open Look, not Motif vs.
OpenWindows. Open Look and Open Windows are two entirely different
animals, and your response from vendors regarding the former might be
better than that for the latter.
--
Kevin L. Weller /-------+--------------------\
internet: n025fc@tamuts.tamu.edu | aTm | GIG 'EM, AGGIES! |
CIS: 73327,1447 \-------+--------------------/esg@sodium.ATT.COM (Edward Gokhman) (01/26/91)
From article <1991Jan23.164403@ecovsb.ncsu.edu>, by willis@ecovsb.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis): > -- > > Until Sun comes around, we'll try to provide Motif for our Suns ourselves. > We will lean heavily toward the purchase of applications which utilize Motif > and reject those which do not whenever possible. If our effort to support Motif > becomes too great, we will buy workstations from vendors who provide it for > us..... > Well, Sun is coming around. The multivendor issue is being addressed by porting OPENLOOK toolkits to 35 different systems. Through an agreement with UniPress Software Incorporated, Edison, NJ, XView toolkit is being offered for Digital, IBM, and HP Unix systems. Integrated Computer Solutions of Cambridge, Mass, offers XView on A/UX. It is still not, I admit, the same as Motif's 100+ platforms and 42 operating systems. However, in workstation sales Sun alone is outpasting the Motif camp by over 60%, which is the reason why independed software vendors offer applications roughly 3:1 in favor of OPENLOOK, according to the past several months surveys by >Personal Workstation< magazine, which was quoted heavily on this network for this discussion. By June 30, according to Andy Bechtolsheim, Sun's VP of technology, Sun will ship 250,000 SPARCs and by the end of 92 they expect 1 million SPARC users. From aesthetics and technical excellence viewpoint it is my understanding we get nowhere in this discussion, although I personally like Motif (here goes my AT&T job!), but then, again, OPENLOOK is becoming quite motifish-looking lately. I am surprised on Bill's high moral stand on this issue, because OSF / UI GUI split happened not so long ago in front of our eyes (OSF announced development of Motif in December 88 and UI announced support for OL in February 89) and we all have read about the cool corporate strategy behind it. BTW, Computergram International claims (1/21/91) OSF is under investigation by the U.S. goverment for aleged anti-trust violations, and we all know what happened to AT&T seven years ago in a related story. --Ed
fgreco@govt.shearson.COM (Frank Greco) (01/28/91)
> > I have spoken too or heard from people who are developing > applications for large companies as well as purchasing software for > large companies, and everything that I heard points to the fact that > they think Motif will win because of the MASSIVE base of people who > already know PM and can pick up Motif with very little effort. ^^ Just in case you haven't read the paper today (WSJ), Microsoft killed all OS/2 and PM development... Frank G.
vania@osf.ORG (Vania Joloboff) (01/29/91)
< >
< > I have spoken too or heard from people who are developing
< > applications for large companies as well as purchasing software for
< > large companies, and everything that I heard points to the fact that
< > they think Motif will win because of the MASSIVE base of people who
< > already know PM and can pick up Motif with very little effort.
^^
< Just in case you haven't read the paper today (WSJ),
< Microsoft killed all OS/2 and PM development...
Motif is also very close to Windows 3, perhaps closer than PM :-)db3l@ibm.com (David Bolen) (01/29/91)
In article <9101281521.AA06109@fis1.shearson.com> fgreco@govt.shearson.COM (Frank Greco) writes: > Just in case you haven't read the paper today (WSJ), > Microsoft killed all OS/2 and PM development... WSJ is wrong. Microsoft put out a press release (on BusinessWire) shortly after the WSJ article was available denying the WSJ allegation and emphasizing their continued support for OS/2. Just for the record... looks like someone at WSJ got it pretty wrong.. -- -- David -- /-----------------------------------------------------------------------\ \ David Bolen / | Laboratory Automation, IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center | / P.O. Box 218, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598 \ | - - - - - - - - - - - - M i t h r a n d i r - - - - - - - - - - - - | | Internet : db3l@ibm.com | Bitnet : db3l@yktvmv | | Usenet : uunet!bywater!arnor!larios!db3l | Phone : (914) 945-1940 | | /---------------------------------------------------------------\ | \-( All comments/opinions are mine and don't represent those of IBM )-/ \---------------------------------------------------------------/
marbru@attc.UUCP (Martin Brunecky) (01/30/91)
< >
< > I have spoken too or heard from people who are developing
< > applications for large companies as well as purchasing software for
< > large companies, and everything that I heard points to the fact that
< > they think Motif will win because of the MASSIVE base of people who
< > already know PM and can pick up Motif with very little effort.
^^
< Just in case you haven't read the paper today (WSJ),
< Microsoft killed all OS/2 and PM development...
Are we now getting closer to the OPEN LOOK situation:
OPEN LOOK is NOT an implementation, it is a SPECIFICATION,
there are several implementations of OPEN LOOK look and feeel
compliant toolkits ( XView, Xt++, OI ... )
What about:
PM is NOT an implementation, it is a SPECIFICATION,
there are several implementations of PM look and feel compliant
toolkits ( Windows 3.0, Motif ... )
--
=*= Opinions presented here are solely of my own and not those of Auto-trol =*=
Martin Brunecky {...}sunpeaks!auto-trol!marbru
(303) 252-2499 (sometimes also: marbru@auto-trol.COM )
Auto-trol Technology Corp. 12500 North Washington St., Denver, CO 80241-2404 guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) (01/30/91)
>> ...they think Motif will win because of the MASSIVE base of people who >> already know PM and can pick up Motif with very little effort. > ^^ > Just in case you haven't read the paper today (WSJ), > Microsoft killed all OS/2 and PM development... Well, I read the paper today, and Microsoft denied it. Also, if Windows 3.0's L&F is similar enough to that of PM (I think it's pretty similar), the argument may apply there as well (I suspect, in fact, that the original poster may have been thinking more of Windows 3.0 than PM; I'm not sure there exists a "MASSIVE base of people who already know PM"). One anecdotal bit of evidence exists for the theory stated by the poster arguing in favor of Motif; a friend of mine here reports that a friend of his liked the fact that Motif was like either PM or Windows - I no longer remember which - because when they switched from their PC to their UNIX box, stuff worked much the same way.
gnb@bby.oz.au (Gregory N. Bond) (01/30/91)
>>>>> On 29 Jan 91 19:10:25 GMT, guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) said:
Guy> One anecdotal bit of evidence exists for the theory stated by the poster
Guy> arguing in favor of Motif; a friend of mine here reports that a friend
Guy> of his liked the fact that Motif was like either PM or Windows - I no
Guy> longer remember which - because when they switched from their PC to
Guy> their UNIX box, stuff worked much the same way.
That is probably the killer argument for us, too. We have a lot of
Win-3 users, so Motif is the logical way to go. Software, pretty
even, most we have looked at support both (or soon will). Look&Feel,
much of a muchness. Programming, well, we won't have enough X
programming experience to decide this until after we make the
choice.... Right now, we use twm.
Pity we are a Sun site....
--
Gregory Bond, Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Internet: gnb@melba.bby.oz.au non-MX: gnb%melba.bby.oz@uunet.uu.net
Uucp: {uunet,pyramid,ubc-cs,ukc,mcvax,prlb2,nttlab...}!munnari!melba.bby.oz!gnbfgreco@govt.shearson.COM (Frank Greco) (01/30/91)
> > What about: > PM is NOT an implementation, it is a SPECIFICATION, > there are several implementations of PM look and feel compliant > toolkits ( Windows 3.0, Motif ... ) Presentation Manager is (should I say "was"?) a product and a registered trademark of Microsoft. It is *not* a specification. Frank G.
nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) (01/30/91)
In article <2977@sodium.ATT.COM> esg@sodium.ATT.COM (Edward Gokhman) writes: >However, in workstation sales Sun alone is outpasting the Motif >camp by over 60%, which is the reason why independed software >vendors offer applications roughly 3:1 in favor of OPENLOOK, >according to the past several months surveys by >Personal Workstation< >magazine, which was quoted heavily on this network for this Personal Workstation has been incredibly deficient in counting Motif applications. In fact even when reviewing a new Motif app in their magazine they didn't up the count. They also don't count development tools or non-USA apps, and I think development tools are a much better long range predictor. A quick floor count at Uniforum rang up a definite majority of Motif apps over Open Look apps. Also recall that just because Sun is the leading workstation vendor doesn't mean that Open Look wins by default. There are at least 17 vendors currently offering Motif on Suns. -- Alfalfa Software, Inc. | Poste: The EMail for Unix nazgul@alfalfa.com | Send Anything... Anywhere 617/646-7703 (voice/fax) | info@alfalfa.com I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate everyone else's.
poole@magnolia.uucp (Simon Poole) (01/31/91)
In article <1991Jan23.164403@ecovsb.ncsu.edu> willis@ecovsb.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) writes (a argument pro Motif): >If there was a single reason for the success of the Macintosh, it was a >consistent >user interface. If we are to have one, it will require committment from those >who purchase systems, not those who argue that theirs is best. Now, I just really don't understand this one, how can anybody imply that Motif applications have "a consistent user interface", the only thing that I've ever noticed that is consistent about Motif is the 3d-look of the buttons (that's really about as deep as it goes). On the other hand I find OpenLook nearly too restricitve.......
amanda@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen) (02/05/91)
>>>>> On 3 Feb 91 02:56:29 GMT, nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) said:
Kee> Consistancy requires both using the Style Guide and watching what
Kee> the applications that go before you do. Apple's shipping MacPaint,
Kee> MacWrite, MacDraw probably did as much or more for application
Kee> consistancy than the Mac style guide. In the X world we don't
Kee> have these precedents, and thus we see a lot of shitty but "compliant"
Kee> interfaces. My advice is to base your Motif apps on Mac apps and go
Kee> from there.
Sun{Write,Paint,Draw} is unfortunately not bundled with Sun
workstations.
However, OpenWindows comes with the DeskSet suite of applications
(mailtool, filemgr, dbxtool, cm, etc.). The XView source at mit also
contain an text editor and a terminal emulator, among other things.
Maybe they will have more success...drd@siia.mv.com (David Dick) (02/07/91)
In <1991Jan30.225359.2070@magnolia.uucp> poole@magnolia.uucp (Simon Poole) writes: >In article <1991Jan23.164403@ecovsb.ncsu.edu> willis@ecovsb.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) writes (a argument pro Motif): >>If there was a single reason for the success of the Macintosh, it was a >>consistent >>user interface. If we are to have one, it will require committment from those >>who purchase systems, not those who argue that theirs is best. >Now, I just really don't understand this one, how can anybody imply that >Motif applications have "a consistent user interface", the only thing >that I've ever noticed that is consistent about Motif is the 3d-look of the >buttons (that's really about as deep as it goes). Unfortunately, I think the visual appearance, rather than the behavior, is what corporate decision-makers are most likely to be convinced by. David Dick Software Innovations, Inc. [the Software Moving Company (sm)]
dvb@emisle.uucp (David Van Beveren) (02/16/91)
I everyone just about sick of this discussion? I certainly is not going
anywhere, nothing is going to be resolved, and it has taken up thousands
of dollars connect time for poor dial-up users like me.
Maybe I can summarize what we all have learned from these long weeks of
people posting to this category:
1. Sun has the most workstations in the field.
2. People who use Motif like it.
3. People who use OpenLookIntrinsicsToolkit like it.
4. People who use XViews like it.
5. Open Look style guide is not _significantly_ different than Motif style
guide.
6. Open Look has been around a little longer.
7. OpenWindows takes more resources than X windows.
8. You can only get OpenWindows on a sun (basically).
9. A lot of people with suns like and use Motif on their suns (w/out OpenWin)
10. Sun has AT&T's support.
11. Motif has DEC, HP and IBM support.
11. There are things you can do with NeWS that you can't do with X
12. Magazine statistics (in fact any statistics) can be manipulated.
13. Personal Workstation likes Sun.
14. Unix Today likes motif
15. DEC, HP and IBM combined are bigger than sun and AT&T combined, when it
comes to computers.
16. Motif is probably a little more powerful than OLIT or XViews, and it
is probably correspondingly more difficult to program in.
17. People differ in their opinion of DevGuide
18. People differ in their opinion of XVT
19. OLWM plays by different rules than mwm, twm and gwm.
20. motif programs can run on OpenWindows, and sometimes they have problems
doing so.
21. OL users are more enthusiastic about support for their product than are
motif users.
22. A few people on this net are VERY enthusiastic, one way or another. Words
like love and hate are seldom appropriate when used to describe software.
23. Motif has bugs.
24. OLIT has bugs.
25. XViews has bugs
26. OpenWindows has bugs.
27. InterViews uses c++, and has bugs as well.
28. I have missed several points, so don't post them, we know what they are.
I suggest the main opponents engage in mailing their arguements, then nasty
mail, then formal jousting, with horses and all, at a point equidistant from
both MIT and Sun. Watching this arguement has been like watching people argue
about abortion, nobody is going to win, it is just a difference of OPINION.
Let's keep this newsgroup to a discussion of facts, Q & A, bugs reports,
and the like. If someone wants an opinion, let him/her post the question
and people should respond to her/him via e-mail. Let him/her post the
results if she/he wants. But please, no more pointless opinions, it is just
a waste of time and money.
BTW, I use and like motif toolkit, have used and didn't like OpenWindows, have
no prefernece between style guides, and do not support womens' right to
have abortions. ( I already regret saying that )
--
David Van Beveren INTERNET: emisle!dvb@ism.isc.com
EIS ltd. Professional Software Services UUCP: ..uunet!emisle!dvb
voice: (818) 587-1247