kre@munnari.OZ (Robert Elz) (11/06/85)
There are problems with the format of articles being posted to the new "mod" groups. (Those that replaced the old "fa" groups). Erik has set things up so that the "Path" line has a reasonable chance of being a valid mail address of the poster of the article (so a news "r" command has a pretty good chance of getting to the person who sent the article, just like news in the "net" groups). That's a semi-admirable thing to have attempted to do - I'm not convinced its really right - the Path line is NOT meant to be used as a mail address, its a list of sites that have received this news item, and hence, to which it need not be sent again. By now, some of you might have detected the problem. If you have been reading "mod.computers.sequent" you will have seen John Quarterman's attempts to post to that group. In fact, everybody should have seen them except John (and others at im4u). This explains the slightly strange nature of those postings. The problem is that Berkeley is supplying a Path line that begins Path: ucbvax!im4u.utexas.edu!jsq which is a good mail address to return mail to John. But the news code sees that, and says "Aha - this news has been to im4u already, I don't need to send it there", and it doesn't! Naturally, any sites that im4u feeds will also miss the news. This is likely to happen to any news sent to one of these groups. That is, you are never likely to see your own postings (unless the "news" name of your system is different from its standard "mail" name). Postings from uucp sites may be affected worse - I haven't noticed one yet to check. Here, its possible that your uucp neighbours (on the way to the arpa gateway) may also not see the posting. If this does happen, then large parts of usenet may miss it. I have reported this problem (via mail) to Erik, I expect that some means will be found to correct the problem. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) this will most likely mean breaking mail to the Path line, and returning it to its proper use as a list of usenet sites that have seen the article. Robert Elz ..!seismo!munnari!kre kre%munnari.oz@seismo.css.gov
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (11/06/85)
In article <1001@munnari.OZ> kre@munnari.OZ (Robert Elz) writes: >Erik has set things up so that the "Path" line has a reasonable >chance of being a valid mail address of the poster of the >article (so a news "r" command has a pretty good chance of >getting to the person who sent the article, just like news in >the "net" groups). This is really broken. That's what the Reply-To line is for. (is Reply-To only in "rn" or is it 2.10.3?) -- The California Lottery may be a tax on the stupid, but at least some of the proceeds are used for education. Phil Ngai +1 408 749-5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com
joel@gould9.UUCP (Joel West) (11/08/85)
I have to agree. "Path" is not a reply address, even if
it does save the problem of having garbage show up on
the lap of usenet@ucbarpa (no small concern for eric.
That's what "Reply-to" is for. Last time I checked, the 2.10.2
knows this.
This glitch puts things in the odd situation that the author
will NEVER see his own article because, of course, it has
already "been" to his machine.
--
Joel West (619) 457-9681
CACI, Inc. Federal, 3344 N. Torrey Pines Ct., La Jolla, CA 92037
{cbosgd,ihnp4,pyramid,sdcsvax,ucla-cs}!gould9!joel
gould9!joel@nosc.ARPAjsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) (11/10/85)
In article <179@gould9.UUCP> joel@gould9.UUCP (Joel West) writes: >I have to agree. "Path" is not a reply address, even if >it does save the problem of having garbage show up on >the lap of usenet@ucbarpa (no small concern for eric. > >That's what "Reply-to" is for. Last time I checked, the 2.10.2 >knows this. Reply-To is a valid RFC822 mail header. It's not clear that it's part of the news article spec. What is clear from my attempts to use it as you suggest in mod.std.unix is that there are *many* hosts on USENET which do not recognize it. Also, many machines which receive USENET newsgroups are not even on USENET; they get the articles by mail over DEC's Easynet. So we have both simple-minded UNIX mailers and DECNET-style VMS mailers which know nothing of Reply-To. This situation cannot be expected to change soon, either, since there is a large camp who believe that RFC822 is incredibly baroque, non-UNIX, and inappropriate for the UUCP mail network. (I think they're wrong, but that won't change their minds.) To avoid the problem with mod.computers.sequent which Robert described, I have taken to posting articles directly from im4u instead of mailing them to ucbvax to be posted there. This way, im4u still appears in the Path, but the article really has been to im4u, just like for any other article posted from im4u. Also, I use a trick which I've found useful in mod.std.unix to separate submissions to the newsgroup from personal mail to me. I set environment variables which inews recognizes so that not jsq but rather info-sequent-request appears in the Path, like this: Path: yours!theirs!...!other!im4u!info-sequent-request Robert and others point out that use of the Path for replies is a dubious practice. But at least this way rn can pick out im4u!info-sequent-request and let the local host route replies. An up to date moderators file in the news library is also a good thing. -- John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA
kre@munnari.OZ (Robert Elz) (11/11/85)
Munnari received the following article in mod.telecom a few minutes ago, I'd be willing to bet that a reasonable fraction of the net will never see it ... (I have deleted immaterial header lines, and the text, in the interests of brevity) > Path: munnari!seismo!cbosgd!ucbvax!ihnp4!kitty!larry > From: ihnp4!kitty!larry@UCBVAX > Newsgroups: mod.telecom > Message-ID: <8511092155.AA01482@ucbvax.berkeley.edu> > Date: 9 Nov 85 21:55:47 GMT > Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Notice - the article was sent to the telecom mailing list from the address on the "From" line. From whichever site actually maintains the list, it was sent to Berkeley to be gatewayed to mod.telecom (the fact that the mail item happened to be routed to the arpa list via ucbvax is irrelevant). Now look at the "Path" line. That claims that the article arrived at ucbvax from ihnp4 - so this article will never be sent there. Anyone who gets news from ihnp4 (probably a few sites there!) is going to miss this one completely. Of course, the poster's site (kitty) is going to miss it in any case, even if they have a news feed other than from ihnp4. Erik: this MUST be fixed. John's solution (in <1@im4u.UUCP>) looks to be the best that is possible (that is, send replies to the "request" mailbox of the list maintainer). Robert Elz ...!seismo!munnari!kre kre%munnari.oz@seismo.css.gov
rees@apollo.uucp (Jim Rees) (11/11/85)
I don't mind breaking news systems that generate replies by sending to the Path:. These systems are the scourge of the net and should be exterminated like rats.