ron@cs.tamu.edu (Ron J. Theriault) (01/30/91)
Is SLIP the only way to provide communication between a
compute server running X clients, and a 'dumb' dialup
X terminal? If so, where is the best implementation for
Sun 4's?
Can X clients & servers communicate without IP over
a serial line? Again, if so, where is a decent implementation?
--
Ron Theriault
CS Dept. Texas A&M Univ. 409-845-1865
ron@cs.tamu.edu
----------- 10-4 --------------barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) (01/30/91)
In article <11594@helios.TAMU.EDU> ron@cs.tamu.edu (Ron J. Theriault) writes: > Is SLIP the only way to provide communication between a >compute server running X clients, and a 'dumb' dialup >X terminal? No. Both NCD and GraphOn provide alternatives to this. They run the X server on the dialup host, and it uses an optimized protocol to forward the window operations to the X terminal. GraphOn's OptimaX terminal only works this way. NCD X terminals can get this as an option, called Xremote. I don't think either protocol is published. However, I think I heard last year that there was work going on to develop a standard protocol for this. Hopefully NCD and GraphOn are involved in the standardization effort. -- Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
dwl@hare.udev.cdc.com (Daren W Latham) (01/30/91)
In article <1991Jan30.054856.9295@Think.COM>, barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: |> In article <11594@helios.TAMU.EDU> ron@cs.tamu.edu (Ron J. Theriault) writes: |> > Is SLIP the only way to provide communication between a |> >compute server running X clients, and a 'dumb' dialup |> >X terminal? |> |> No. Both NCD and GraphOn provide alternatives to this. They run the X |> server on the dialup host, and it uses an optimized protocol to forward the |> window operations to the X terminal. GraphOn's OptimaX terminal only works |> this way. NCD X terminals can get this as an option, called Xremote. |> XRemote from NCD doesn't actually run the server on the host, there is a helping program on the host which accepts X connections for the remote server, it then multiplexes the connections into one data stream and compresses the data stream before sending it across the modem. At the remote end, the terminal uncompresses and unmultiplexes the data stream and processes the information as if it were local. -- Daren -- Daren W. Latham, ARH215 | dwl@udev.cdc.com Control Data Corporation | {uunet}!shamash!punjab!hare!dwl 4201 North Lexington Avenue | Arden Hills, MN 55126 | (612)482-3457 "A Little Nonsense Now and Then -- Is Cherished by the Wisest Men"
dc@ncd.COM (Dave Cornelius) (01/31/91)
>In article <11594@helios.TAMU.EDU> ron@cs.tamu.edu (Ron J. Theriault) writes: >> Is SLIP the only way to provide communication between a >>compute server running X clients, and a 'dumb' dialup >>X terminal? > >Date: 30 Jan 91 05:48:56 GMT >From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) > >No. Both NCD and GraphOn provide alternatives to this. They run the X >server on the dialup host, and it uses an optimized protocol to forward the >window operations to the X terminal. GraphOn's OptimaX terminal only works >this way. NCD X terminals can get this as an option, called Xremote. The NCD and GraphOn approaches differ in that NCD has a real X server in the terminal, and compresses real X protocol over the serial line, whereas GraphOn runs the full X server in the host, and extends the monochrome frame buffer drawing primitives over the serial line (along with keyboard and mouse support). ----------- Dave Cornelius Network Computing Devices 350 North Bernardo Ave dc@ncd.com -or- Mountain View, CA, 94043 {uunet,ardent,mips}!lupine!dc 415-694-0675
barmar@think.COM (Barry Margolin) (01/31/91)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 91 08:10:47 PST
From: dc@ncd.com (Dave Cornelius)
The NCD and GraphOn approaches differ in that NCD has a real
X server in the terminal, and compresses real X protocol over
the serial line, whereas GraphOn runs the full X server in the host,
and extends the monochrome frame buffer drawing primitives over
the serial line (along with keyboard and mouse support).
-----------
Dave Cornelius Network Computing Devices
Thanks for the clarification. When I first heard about Xremote that's
what I thought it did, but somehow I'd later gotten the impression (not
from anyone at NCD) that it was more like GraphOn.
Are you willing to comment on the pros and cons of the two approaches?
NCD's approach seems like it would make the host software simpler,
whereas the GraphOn approach can optimize use of the serial line better.
barmarege@scs.fiu.edu (Dr. Raimund K. Ege) (01/31/91)
Apropos connecting a X terminal via a serial line : the X terminals that I looked at come with only one serial port. I want to use the X terminal at home using a 9600 Baud modem connection and also connect a laser printer. The DEC vt420 terminal that I am using so far has an additional serial port, which allows printing. Does anybody know of a X terminal that can handle (or has) two serial ports, one for the connection to the host, and one for a local printer ? Any help is appreciated. Raimund Ege School of Computer Science, FIU ege@scs.fiu.edu or ege@servax.bitnet
meissner@osf.org (Michael Meissner) (02/01/91)
In article <9101310200.AA09703@eng1.sequent.com> shap@sequent.COM (Shap Shapiro) writes: | > Thanks for the clarification. When I first heard about Xremote that's | > what I thought it did, but somehow I'd later gotten the impression (not | > from anyone at NCD) that it was more like GraphOn. | > | > Are you willing to comment on the pros and cons of the two approaches? | > NCD's approach seems like it would make the host software simpler, | > whereas the GraphOn approach can optimize use of the serial line better. | | Personally, I like the NCD approach. When I take an NCD home or on the road, | then I can use a modem and/or serial line hookup and run Xremote. I can also | take the same NCD into work, plug it into the net, and use it like a normal X | terminal with no extra process (i.e. Xremote) running around on the host | system. Has anybody run NCD's with PEP modems (ie, T1000 in my case) rather than V.32 like they suggest? Any pointers, hints, war stories, advice not to... I am currently using a vt320 with a T1000, and our dataswitch also uses T1000's.... -- Michael Meissner email: meissner@osf.org phone: 617-621-8861 Open Software Foundation, 11 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, MA, 02142 Considering the flames and intolerance, shouldn't USENET be spelled ABUSENET?
barmar@think.COM (Barry Margolin) (02/01/91)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 16:06:27 PST
From: lupine!dc@uunet.UU.NET (Dave Cornelius)
>From a UI point of view, having the server 'closely coupled' to
the mouse allows the cursor to change shape at window boundaries,
and allows the window manager to change highlighting apropos these
boundary crossings. A round-trip through the serial line
to effect these changes can be a bit troublesome.
Perhaps another useful approach would be something between GraphOn's and
Xremote, where the protocol sent down the serial line were higher level
than frame buffer operations, but not the full X protocol. For example,
aspects of the protocol related to client management could be done on
the host, rather than including client information in the serial line
protocol.
I'm note quite sure what you mean by 'optimize use of the serial
line better'.
I was talking about output to non-visible portions of windows. GraphOn
presumably does this clipping on the host, and doesn't waste serial
bandwidth sending bits that won't be displayed. On the other hand, this
means that the terminal can't cache it locally so that raising the
window is fast. However, the host could wait until the serial line is
idle and then forward the bits.
barmarshap@sequent.COM (Shap Shapiro) (02/02/91)
> Has anybody run NCD's with PEP modems (ie, T1000 in my case) rather > than V.32 like they suggest? Any pointers, hints, war stories, advice > not to... I am currently using a vt320 with a T1000, and our > dataswitch also uses T1000's.... Yes, we tried to run NCD's with a T1000. My advice would be to not bother. The performance was so bad that it was unusable. You really need to be running a V.32 modem. Shap
fenn@wpi.WPI.EDU (Brian Fennell) (02/02/91)
Sorry for coming in late in the discussion. I seem to remember someone discussing a product that could run an X server on an PC using a pair of 2400 baud modem lines (effective 4800 baud). Is there such a thing? Brian Fennell == fenn@wpi.wpi.edu
ogata@wor.umd.edu (Jefferson Ogata) (02/05/91)
Along the server/dialup lines, has anyone ever heard of a Macintosh server that can operate over a serial line, particularly a modem line? Something like the NCD/GraphOn sort of thing, for example? Please send E-mail and I will summarize. ----- Jefferson Ogata ogata@cs.umd.edu University of Maryland Department of Computer Science -- Jefferson Ogata ogata@cs.umd.edu University Of Maryland Department of Computer Science
brett@visix.com (Brett Bourbin) (03/05/91)
In article <9101310200.AA09703@eng1.sequent.com> shap@sequent.COM (Shap Shapiro) writes: >> Thanks for the clarification. When I first heard about Xremote that's >> what I thought it did, but somehow I'd later gotten the impression (not >> from anyone at NCD) that it was more like GraphOn. >> >> Are you willing to comment on the pros and cons of the two approaches? >> NCD's approach seems like it would make the host software simpler, >> whereas the GraphOn approach can optimize use of the serial line better. >Personally, I like the NCD approach. When I take an NCD home or on the road, >then I can use a modem and/or serial line hookup and run Xremote. I can also >take the same NCD into work, plug it into the net, and use it like a normal X >terminal with no extra process (i.e. Xremote) running around on the host >system. Well, it really depends on what you wish to use the Xterm for. If you need a Xterm to use at home over a "slow" 9600 baud modem, I would personally pick one that had memory on the actual Xterm and running the Xserver software on the Xterm. If I had a bunch of Xterms in the same place as a compute server and was running a "fast" serial link to them (lets say my building does not have any type of ethernet), I would like to utilize the servers memory and buy very cheap Xterms. The speed is not only a function of were the memory is, but the compression routines and WHAT they are compressing (X protocol or something else). I have worked with both types, and like everything in life, they both have their uses. > Shap Shapiro | Sequent Computer Systems | -- __ Brett Bourbin \ / /(_ /\/ 11440 Commerce Park Drive ..!uunet!visix!brett \/ / __)/ /\ Reston, Virginia 22091 brett@visix.com Software Inc (703) 758-2733