larryc@puente.jpl.nasa.gov (Larry Carroll) (06/08/91)
This is a kind of silly thing to ask, but my supervisor doesn't think so: How does Apple's System 7.0 operating system compare with Unix? (So far it seems like the biggest change to the Apple OS is cosmetic.)
jba@gorm.ruc.dk (Jan B. Andersen) (06/12/91)
larryc@puente.jpl.nasa.gov (Larry Carroll) writes: >This is a kind of silly thing to ask, but my supervisor doesn't think so: >How does Apple's System 7.0 operating system compare with Unix? It don't! >(So far it seems like the biggest change to the Apple OS is cosmetic.) -- /| / Jan B. Andersen /^^^\ .----------------. / | / RUC, Hus 19,1 jba@dat.ruc.dk { o_o } | SIMULA does it | /--|/ Postbox 260 DG-passer@ruc.dk \ o / --> | with CLASS | `--' ' DK-4000 Roskilde Postmaster@ruc.dk --mm---mm-- `----------------'
chappell@witchcraft.sf.ca.us (Tom Chappell) (06/13/91)
larryc@puente.jpl.nasa.gov (Larry Carroll) writes: >This is a kind of silly thing to ask, but my supervisor doesn't think so: >How does Apple's System 7.0 operating system compare with Unix? >(So far it seems like the biggest change to the Apple OS is cosmetic.) Man, oh man, I can't believe you just said that. I won't bother with a full list, but apart from the "cosmetic" changes, System 7 includes: 1. Peer-To-Peer networking via AppleTalk (LocalTalk, TokenTalk, or EtherTalk) built in to the system software. It's there, on every Macintosh, right down to the Macintosh Classic. 2. Inter-Application Communication, INCLUDING IAC BETWEEN APPLICATIONS RUNNING ON DIFFERENT COMPUTERS. 3. Support for File, Folder, and Volume Aliases, similar to UNIX links, except that the operating system retains the concept of where the "real" copy of the item is. As with IAC above, these Aliases can reach ACROSS THE NETWORK. 4. Publish and Subscribe. One Macintosh user selects a portion of a document, say the first draft of a budget or drawing, and creates a Publisher based on that item. Other documents, again possibly running on other Macintoshes, can Subscribe, and will be automatically updated as the original is changed. 5. Virtual Memory. Allows Macintosh users to actually run several applications at once. In the bad old days, MultiFinder wasn't really very useful, because a user would run out of memory right away. No more! Only works on the Macintosh II line, and because the original II is a 68020 instead of a 68030, you need to purchase an MMU, but there's a socket for it already on the motherboard. 6. No More Finder. In the bad old days, there was a Finder and a MultiFinder. Not very often, but often enough to be really, really annoying, software developers would ship their "products" with instructions to run it under the Finder (No MultiFinder Support). Well, those guys are going to clean up their act really fast, because the UniFinder is gone - the Finder now behaves the way the MultiFinder used to. Process control has been beefed up as well. 7. Apple Events. System 7 now provides a standard method for applications to designate each of the commands that they are capable of. New versions of applications written for System 7 use these standard "Apple Events" to effect most or all of their own commands. There are standard events, such as "Get ready for a System Shutdown" and each program also has many custom Apple Events, which the developers make public in the Apple Event Registry. One program can then send an Apple Event to another, telling it to do whatever it wants it to do. A backup program could ask a virus-checking program to inspect the file that it had just restored. A word processor could ask a spelling checker to do examine a certain portion of a document. A new version of the QuickKeys macro program from CE Software will be available very soon that exploits Apple Events. And, of course, the two programs can be running on different machines on the network. I might add that all of this stuff has been added so seamlessly that your impression is, "It seems like the biggest change to the Apple OS is cosmetic." Next time, try posting questions about the Macintosh to one of the Mac news groups.
gene@segue.segue.com (Gene Hightower) (06/15/91)
This should go someplace other then comp.windows.x. In article <1068@witch.witchcraft.sf.ca.us> chappell@witchcraft.sf.ca.us (Tom Chappell) writes: >larryc@puente.jpl.nasa.gov (Larry Carroll) writes: >>This is a kind of silly thing to ask, but my supervisor doesn't think so: >>How does Apple's System 7.0 operating system compare with Unix? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So lets compare it with Unix. First let me say that by "Unix" I am talking about SunOS 4.x and HP-UX from first hand knowlage. I can't speak for all the systems that are (or have ever been) called Unix. >Man, oh man, I can't believe you just said that. I won't bother with a full >list, but apart from the "cosmetic" changes, System 7 includes: > >1. Peer-To-Peer networking via AppleTalk (LocalTalk, TokenTalk, or EtherTalk) >2. Inter-Application Communication, INCLUDING IAC BETWEEN APPLICATIONS RUNNING Unix systems have networking. NFS provides file sharing, but there are lots of ways that Unix systems use the ability to network. With a window system such as X, programs can run on one machine and display graphics on the screen of another machine. The X window system is not unique to Unix, but the Mac OS makes it hard to build more then the server side of the system. In other words, to use Macintish A you have to sit in front of Mac A and use it's keyboard and screen. You can't access its CPU power from another computer. >3. Support for File, Folder, and Volume Aliases, similar to UNIX links, except The same as "symbolic" links. Symbolic links can point to files on other filesystems and via NFS to files on remote machines. >4. Publish and Subscribe. One Macintosh user selects a portion of a document, This feature is mostly a feature of the application you are running, i.e. the drawing or word processing program. System 7 may provide support to such operations, but it does not provide the operations directly. Unix applications have had the OS support (in the form of IPC) for some time. >5. Virtual Memory. Allows Macintosh users to actually run several applications Well, almost virtual memory. All of the programs run in the same address space. The programs don't move around. If you run programs A, B and C and program B needs more space, you are out of luck. You could give each program a huge block of address space, but it's not as good as each program having its own space. Another problem with this way of doing things is that one program can screw up not only itself, but any other program on the system, or the OS itself. System 7 also swaps to the filesystem. This has drawbacks. Speed mostly. OS/2 does this also. The big reason is that folks can upgrade to the new virtual memory OS without rearanging hard disk space. >6. No More Finder. In the bad old days, there was a Finder and a MultiFinder. This is taking away a feature. >7. Apple Events. System 7 now provides a standard method for applications to This sounds like another form of IPC. Sounds like points 1, 2, 4 and 7 are all interprocess communication. Unix has this. >I might add that all of this stuff has been added so seamlessly that your >impression is, "It seems like the biggest change to the Apple OS is cosmetic." I didn't see that many cosmetic changes in 7 anyhow. I would have liked to. The monochrome flat look of the scrollbars and buttons is looking out of date next to the 3-D and color stuff showing up in OPEN LOOK, Motif and NextStep. >Next time, try posting questions about the Macintosh to one of the Mac news >groups. I don't get the Mac related newgroups, so I have not moved this thred.-- Gene Hightower
dsr@mitre.org (Douglas S. Rand) (06/17/91)
In article <7871@segue.segue.com> gene@segue.segue.com (Gene Hightower) writes: This should go someplace other then comp.windows.x. I agree but there is some applicability. In article <1068@witch.witchcraft.sf.ca.us> chappell@witchcraft.sf.ca.us (Tom Chappell) writes: >larryc@puente.jpl.nasa.gov (Larry Carroll) writes: >>This is a kind of silly thing to ask, but my supervisor doesn't think so: >>How does Apple's System 7.0 operating system compare with Unix? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So lets compare it with Unix. First let me say that by "Unix" I am talking about SunOS 4.x and HP-UX from first hand knowlage. I can't speak for all the systems that are (or have ever been) called Unix. I've used BSD, SUN and SYSV, I've also used Macs for a long time. >Man, oh man, I can't believe you just said that. I won't bother with a full >list, but apart from the "cosmetic" changes, System 7 includes: > >1. Peer-To-Peer networking via AppleTalk (LocalTalk, TokenTalk, or EtherTalk) >2. Inter-Application Communication, INCLUDING IAC BETWEEN APPLICATIONS RUNNING Unix systems have networking. NFS provides file sharing, but there are lots of ways that Unix systems use the ability to network. With a window system such as X, programs can run on one machine and display graphics on the screen of another machine. The X window system is not unique to Unix, but the Mac OS makes it hard to build more then the server side of the system. In other words, to use Macintish A you have to sit in front of Mac A and use it's keyboard and screen. You can't access its CPU power from another computer. Not true. An application called Timbuktu does exactly this. Also X is not UNIX is not X. X is a protocol, X runs on VMS and even my old OS PRIMOS. It isn't clear to me why running X clients on a Mac would make any sense anyway. The major use for X is as a server to allow a user to run applications which require special resources on another machine. The MAC is hardly a compute resource. Apple's file sharing is much kinder then NFS. NFS has lots of flaws and if you want a list I'll send it. Apple doesn't require the user to know what's going on. Most UNIX networking is not very sophisticated and takes place right at the TCP or UDP layers, and don't tell me about OSI since I know it's a commie plot ( large grin here ). >3. Support for File, Folder, and Volume Aliases, similar to UNIX links, except The same as "symbolic" links. Symbolic links can point to files on other filesystems and via NFS to files on remote machines. Not the same. Apple's aliases are just like symbolic links for files on the same machine, but for files on a different machine they store all the information to find that specific file. UNIX requires much to have this work (for example, setting up the automounter on SUN OS). >4. Publish and Subscribe. One Macintosh user selects a portion of a document, This feature is mostly a feature of the application you are running, i.e. the drawing or word processing program. System 7 may provide support to such operations, but it does not provide the operations directly. This is a non-trivial support job. I have yet to see any Unix applications supporting live links. It really is helpful for a hardware vendor to specify how such things should work. It binds the different software suppliers to one mind of how to do the work. Apple has been the most successful example of this to date. There really isn't anything in the Mac that requires all Mac applications to look the same. They could choose not to have, for example, the menu bar. But Inside Mac says you shall do it and I don't remember the last application I ran, if ever, which didn't. Unix applications have had the OS support (in the form of IPC) for some time. Right. Just go look at the work done on even the current ICCCM work in X11R4 and tell me that this approaches the ease of use of the Mac clipboard. On the Mac I can take and cut something from app A and paste into app B and usually not loose very much. At worst the cut becomes a PICT resource. IPC on UNIX is very non-standard. You have Berkeley (SUN) RPC on quite a few machines. You have NCS on others. The two don't interoperate. The only absolute guarantee on all workstations is TCP/IP and even that might not exist on some older Apollo boxes (with Domain) or (not up to date on this one) some VAX stations with DECNET. >5. Virtual Memory. Allows Macintosh users to actually run several applications Well, almost virtual memory. All of the programs run in the same address space. The programs don't move around. If you run programs A, B and C and program B needs more space, you are out of luck. You could give each program a huge block of address space, but it's not as good as each program having its own space. It has VM. It doesn't yet have some other memory management features and memory protection isn't yet turned on. The inability to move programs around suprises me though. You sure? Another problem with this way of doing things is that one program can screw up not only itself, but any other program on the system, or the OS itself. Not a necessary limitation on a MAC with a PMMU or a 68030 or better. But Apple hasn't turned it on yet. System 7 also swaps to the filesystem. This has drawbacks. Speed mostly. OS/2 does this also. The big reason is that folks can upgrade to the new virtual memory OS without rearanging hard disk space. This is a red herring. The SUN OS does this also. You can definitely use the filesystem for swapping without incurring (serious) performance problems. After all, the OS can superoptimize the swapping file, for example, make all the blocks contiguous as Sun does. Oh well. That's enough comments for me. Someone else can comment on the rest. -- Douglas S. Rand Internet: <dsrand@mitre.org> Snail: MITRE, Burlington Road, Bedford, MA Disclaimer: MITRE might agree with me - then again... Amateur Radio: KC1KJ
sarima@tdatirv.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (06/18/91)
In article <7871@segue.segue.com> gene@segue.segue.com (Gene Hightower) writes: >>1. Peer-To-Peer networking via AppleTalk (LocalTalk, TokenTalk, or EtherTalk) >>2. Inter-Application Communication, INCLUDING IAC BETWEEN APPLICATIONS RUNNING >Unix systems have networking. Networking is one of UNIX's strong points. It does it very well, and very thoroughly. AppleTalk?? What good is that except to talk to another Apple? UNIX supports *at* *least* TCP/IP, which is the de facto industry standard for internetworks - this means that UNIX networking will talk to many non-UNIX boxes (like, IBM PC's, Amiga's, &c.) Try *that* with a Mac! Many UNIX systems also support SNA and DECNET. This adds IBM mainframes and DEC minis to the list of available connections. >>5. Virtual Memory. Allows Macintosh users to actually run several applications > >Well, almost virtual memory. All of the programs run in the same >address space. Just to make sure this is clear - most UNIX systems not only support Virtual Memory, they give each process its own seperate address space, with full protection. And *all* UNIX systems, even the oldest, most antiquated ones, support running multiple applications at one time. UNIX was the first OS to do this on anything other than a mainframe. -- --------------- uunet!tdatirv!sarima (Stanley Friesen)
barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) (06/18/91)
[This is no longer about X. I'm redirecting followups to comp.protocols.misc.] In article <46@tdatirv.UUCP> sarima@tdatirv.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >AppleTalk?? What good is that except to talk to another Apple? >UNIX supports *at* *least* TCP/IP, which is the de facto industry >standard for internetworks - this means that UNIX networking will talk >to many non-UNIX boxes (like, IBM PC's, Amiga's, &c.) Try *that* with >a Mac! Where have you been? MacTCP has been around for at least a year, and before that, NCSA Telnet had a self-contained TCP/IP implementation. There are also AppleTalk implementations for non-Apple systems; there's nothing Apple-hardware-specific about the AppleTalk protocol. Our Unix systems run Columbia Appletalk (CAP) so that they can send files to laser printers on LocalTalk networks. And there are standalone devices that perform high-level protocol translation. For instance, Cayman Gatorboxes can translate AFP to NFS and LPD to Appletalk's printing protocol. -- Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herbert Presley) (06/19/91)
In article <1068@witch.witchcraft.sf.ca.us> chappell@witchcraft.sf.ca.us (Tom Chappell) writes: >larryc@puente.jpl.nasa.gov (Larry Carroll) writes: > >>This is a kind of silly thing to ask, but my supervisor doesn't think so: > >Next time, try posting questions about the Macintosh to one of the Mac news >groups. Why? Since the individual was asking for a comparison between UNIX and MAC, doesn't it make sense that he would ask in a UNIX group?? Huh?? ___________________________________________________________________________ DISCLAIMER: Any views expressed here are mine alone and do not represent those of this organization email : jhp@apss.ab.ca mail : 10320 - 146 St., Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T5N 3A2 phone : (403) 451-7151