dono@killer.UUCP (09/03/87)
Here's a good one. I sent off for Minix on the 1st of June. Received the package in the middle of July. Had several bad disks. Had to hand recompile cc, cat, mv and a few other commands, before the system was usable. Last week P-H sent me a bill, asking for more money from two months back. After laughing myself silly, I filed the request in the circular bin. Minix is a hell of a good operating system, for the price. It's just too bad that P-H seems to want to put the screws to anyone who wants it. Don O'Connell
ast@cs.vu.nl (Andy Tanenbaum) (09/04/87)
In article <1457@killer.UUCP> dono@killer.UUCP (Don OConnell) writes: >I sent off for Minix on the 1st of June. Received the package in the middle >of July. Had several bad disks. If anyone gets bad disks from P-H, please call them and complain loudly. That big companies are bureaucratic is not unusual. The demand for MINIX has consistently exceeded the supply, so they are often behind. But if the company actually doing disk manufacturing is doing a lousy job of quality control, P-H will do something about it, provided people tell them about it. Andy Tanenbaum (ast@cs.vu.nl)
bisanabi@vrdxhq.UUCP (Paul Paloski) (09/09/87)
In article <490@ast.cs.vu.nl>, ast@cs.vu.nl (Andy Tanenbaum) writes: > In article <1457@killer.UUCP> dono@killer.UUCP (Don OConnell) writes: > >I sent off for Minix on the 1st of June. Received the package in the middle > >of July. Had several bad disks. > > If anyone gets bad disks from P-H, please call them and complain > loudly. That big companies are bureaucratic is not unusual. The > demand for MINIX has consistently exceeded the supply, so they are > often behind. But if the company actually doing disk manufacturing is > doing a lousy job of quality control, P-H will do something about it, > provided people tell them about it. > Andy Tanenbaum (ast@cs.vu.nl) It all sounds nice in theory, Andy, but the fact is that Prentice-Hall is not providing their customers with satisfactory service. Much of the problems with PH has been due to the UniForum in Washington D.C. last January. I had showed up with several colleagues to acquire the disks and book, having been told that they BOTH were available there. I even accepted PH's story about not being able to sell the diskettes at Uniforum and just obtained the book. Since then it has been a royal pain in the a** dealing with PH and all the mixed up billings. Quite a few articles were posted during the months following concerning mixed-up bills, so it's not just the 9 or 10 people that I know personally. (Refresher: 10% discount stated at show; instead of the $33.2x, bills ranged from $39.xx thru $46.xx !!) The above advice on letting them know about problems is a worthy one. I called long-distance (no toll-free number) and explained my situation. The response was very apologetic and I was told to send the $33.2x. I asked for a corrected bill instead, and was told that one would be sent. (A colleague sent the $33.2x and kept getting bills for the other $13.xx -- his book cost $46.xx !!) The corrected bill never came. After 1/2 dozen of the wrong bills, I wrote a lengthy message explaining the problems originating from the Uniforum book distribution and mentioned the many articles posted to the net as well as the situations common to my colleagues and myself. I left my phone number and requested that they call if they had any questions, or just send me the correct bill and I would gladly pay. I kept getting the wrong bills and finally PH started leaving notes about how my account was delinquent and further steps seemed necessary to get their money. "We want you to know that we appreciate having the pleasure of numbering you among our many thousands of satisfied customers. However, ..." Obviously not the people from Uniforum ;-) I phoned again (long-distance) and got the same apologetic reply about sending a corrected one. Now the notes are threatening my credit and mentioning going to an outside collection agency to get their money. This really pissed me off and another letter was sent; this time to R. J. Devon, their collection manager. Sorry, Andy, if this is a negative posting, but this whole B***S*** with PH is unfortunately reflecting on your product. Whenever Minix is mentioned, I always hear reference to PH and their problems. I decided against this posting yesterday, but I just received another incorrect bill today from R. J. Devon of PH. I still have not received any acknowledgment that they have even read my letters. As for the phone calls, <shrug>. I mentioned in the last letter that I will not incur any further expenses via long-distance phone calls nor time/postage to write letters since they are obviously being ignored. It all boils down to the following: 1) What else can we as customers do ?? 2) What can you, Andy, do about all this ? 3) Who out there are still going around in circles with PH over the Uniforum incident ? (Who buckled under and just paid them off to have peace ? ;-) It is unfortunate, but I feel like sending them the book back. I fear that they would not acknowledge receipt of the book, and I'd still get the darn bills rolling in. (I've incurred enough expense trying to settle this without paying for registered mail. Is there any legal problem, or credit damage, to just sit back and wait? Eventually they'll have to call or come by personally, right ?) -- -- Paul :
bdale@winfree.UUCP (Bdale Garbee) (09/11/87)
I had a similar, less excruciating but still annoying, experience with
PH. I had a friend at MIT send me the book when it first came out, so
had no problems there. But when I mailed in the card from the book
with a check for my $79.95 or whatever it was, I got back a set of disks,
and a bill for sales tax! NOWHERE on the card did it imply that sales
tax was not included in the purchase price. I don't mind paying sales
taxes, but I do mind being harrassed for several months by PH for not
sending them a check for the dollar and some cents they said I owed them!
Andy, if they reprint the book, have them change the response card to
include some line about "please add appropriate sales tax for your area"
if they are going to insist on collecting it.
I finally sent them a check, but not until I was sure they'd spent far
more than the dollar and some cents mailing me notices!
--
Bdale Garbee, N3EUA phone: 303/593-9828 h, 303/590-2868 w
uucp: {bellcore,crash,hp-lsd,ncc,pitt,usafa,vixie}!winfree!bdale
arpa: bdale%winfree.uucp@bellcore.com
fido: sysop of 128/19 packet: n3eua @ k0hoa, Colorado Springstorben@uhmanoa.UUCP (09/12/87)
I too sent in the card from the back of the book to get the disks. After receiving the disks I got this bill for around $4 for sales tax. I keep getting reminders from PH about it, but I absollutely refuse to pay. The card said NOTHING about adding sales tax. As far as I'm concerned, I've paid what I owed and I will not buckle under and send them the $4. Prentice-Hall is coming out looking pretty bad from this... I used to be a very satisfied customer of theirs and I used their books both personally and in teaching. Not any more. -- Torben N. Nielsen,Department of ICS,2565 The Mall,Honolulu, HI 96822 torben@uhmanoa.ics.hawaii.edu
lawitzke@eecae.UUCP (John Lawitzke) (09/14/87)
> I got back a set of disks, > and a bill for sales tax! NOWHERE on the card did it imply that sales > tax was not included in the purchase price. As I understand tax laws, if you mail order something from a different state, they can not legally charge you sales tax. If they do, they're probably just pocketing the money. Only if you live in the state the order is sent to can they charge you that sales tax. In fact, I had a friend who was travelling in a different state and found some camera equipment he wanted. The sales tax would have amounted to around $40. So, he proved via his drivers license that he was a citizen of a different state and had the company mail him the equipment and that way he got around the taxes. If he would have bought it and carried it out of the store himself, he would have been charged tax. -- j UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!eecae!lawitzke ARPA: lawitzke@eecae.ee.msu.edu (35.8.8.151)
mmdf@udel.UUCP (09/15/87)
At the risk of sounding like a Goodie-Two-Shoes, I just wanted to say that I actually managed to buy the Minx disks from P-H by mail without any real ( ... at least not any more than expected from any book-by-mail service ...) trouble. The diskettes arived in good shape the standard "3 to 4 weeks" after my order. I also had some sales tax problems, but then I live in New York any P-H was filling orders from Rockland County in New York State. Sales tax is a part of life, death, and everything or service around here. I don't like it, but I pay it. I will agree that P-H should have put a bit more thought into 1) Minix order fulfillment and 2) the coupons in the back of the book, especially in collection of required taxes, fees, postage, etc. The whole scheme looks as though someone thought it up and typeset it in about an hour. -Frank mstan!frank
kent@tifsie.UUCP (Russell Kent) (09/17/87)
in article <2698@eecae.UUCP>, lawitzke@eecae.UUCP (John Lawitzke) says: > >> I got back a set of disks, >> and a bill for sales tax! NOWHERE on the card did it imply that sales >> tax was not included in the purchase price. > > As I understand tax laws, if you mail order something from a different > state, they can not legally charge you sales tax. If they do, they're > probably just pocketing the money. Only if you live in the state the > order is sent to can they charge you that sales tax. What Mr. Lawitzke says is not entirely correct. A state sales tax is a tax levied on the purchase price of some items sold within the confines of that state. The problem with interstate mail orders is two-fold: 1. Where did the sale occur? In the state where the buyer resides or the state where the seller resides? 2. If the sale is attributed to the state where the buyer resides (appropriate since the sales tax is intended to be paid by the buyer and should be therefore paid to his state's treasury), how does one enforce the law? Many states have cooperative sales tax levy agreements; this is why one cannot go to a neighboring state and buy a big-ticket item (such as a car) and avoid the state sales tax. In such a case, the sales taxes are levied and distributed according to the states' agreement. However, most mail-order sales have such small tax amounts that their collection costs do not justify the enforcement of the law and the additional overhead associated with interstate taxes. It would appear that to avoid possible legal action against PH, they have chosen to comply with the letter of the law (obviously to the chagrin of several mail-order customers :-). With tighter state budgets, this will probably happen more and more frequently. Oh, well. This is just one more of the "good ole days" stories that we can tell our grandchildren. -- Russell Kent Phone: +1 214 995 3501 Texas Instruments - MS 3635 Net mail: P.O. Box 655012 ...!{ihnp4,uiucdcs}!convex!smu!tifsie!kent Dallas, TX 75265 ...!ut-sally!im4u!ti-csl!tifsie!kent
chuck@eneevax.UUCP (09/17/87)
In article <2698@eecae.UUCP> lawitzke@eecae.UUCP (John Lawitzke) writes: > > Quoted stuff from previous article...deleted > >As I understand tax laws, if you mail order something from a different >state, they can not legally charge you sales tax. If they do, they're >probably just pocketing the money. Only if you live in the state the Sorry my friend, but you don't understand the sale tax laws... I too was outraged when PH charged me sales tax, and to fix them, I called the Maryland Sales Tax people...They set me straight, so I thought I would set you all straight... 1) Large companies such as PH almost always get sales licenses from the states that they plan to do business in...In the case of PH, it is all fifty of them....This <<OBLIGATES>> the company to collect sales tax for the state that the product is to be used in. (They are audited by the states that they have sales licenses for to assure complience.) 2) States that collect sales tax usually also have a USE TAX which is equal to the difference between the sales tax of the state that the item is to be used in and the sales tax already paid to a different state. (eg. for an item purchased in Wisconsin and used in Maryland: MD 5% - WI 5% = 0% Use tax due MD, or for a state XX, MD 5% - XX 3% = 2% Use tax due MD ) Note, If the Use Tax is Negative, Maybe you can get a refund?? 3) When you purchase an item mail order from a small firm that does not collect tax, you LEGALLY OWE your state a USE TAX equal to your states sales tax. Knowing this, I am sure that all you loyal citizens will rush right out and pay your state all of the use tax that you owe. Cheers, Chuck Harris C.F. Harris - Consulting
gerard@tscs.UUCP (09/18/87)
In article <2698@eecae.UUCP> lawitzke@eecae.UUCP (John Lawitzke) writes: >> I got back a set of disks, >> and a bill for sales tax! NOWHERE on the card did it imply that sales >> tax was not included in the purchase price. > >As I understand tax laws, if you mail order something from a different >state, they can not legally charge you sales tax. If they do, they're >probably just pocketing the money. If you live in state X, and purchase from company C in state Y, Company C does not have to pay/collect state Y sales tax if that product is shipped to state X. However if company C has an office in state X, they are required to collect state sales tax on behalf of state X and send that tax to state X. If state X audits company C's books and finds sales that were shipped to state X from state Y, company C must provide valid tax exemption certificates for each customer or else pay the corresponding amount of state X sales tax out of their own pockets. So if you buy something from IBM mail order, IBM will charge you state sales tax for the state that the order was shipped to. This is beacuse IBM has offices in all states, at least I assume they do. :-) If you buy something from XYZ camera in state Y, and XYZ camera has no office in your state, they do not have to charge sales tax for your state or theirs. Most states however, have a law that requires you to send in your check for the amount of tax in your state. This is very hard to enforce; therefore, it doesn't get paid. Anyway, MINIX is a great value, even with sales tax included. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stephen Gerard - Total Support Computer Systems - Tampa - (813) 876-5990 UUCP: ...{codas, gatech}!usfvax2!tscs!gerard US-MAIL: Post Office Box 15395 - Tampa, Florida 33684-5395
pre1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Grant Prellwitz) (09/26/87)
In article <142@tscs.UUCP> gerard@tscs.UUCP (system administrator) writes: -In article <2698@eecae.UUCP> lawitzke@eecae.UUCP (John Lawitzke) writes: ->> I got back a set of disks, ->> and a bill for sales tax! NOWHERE on the card did it imply that sales ->> tax was not included in the purchase price. -> ->As I understand tax laws, if you mail order something from a different ->state, they can not legally charge you sales tax. If they do, they're ->probably just pocketing the money. - -If you live in state X, and purchase from company C in state Y, Company -C does not have to pay/collect state Y sales tax if that product is shipped -to state X. However if company C has an office in state X, they are required -to collect state sales tax on behalf of state X and send that tax to state X. -If state X audits company C's books and finds sales that were shipped to state -X from state Y, company C must provide valid tax exemption certificates for -each customer or else pay the corresponding amount of state X sales tax out -of their own pockets. -UUCP: ...{codas, gatech}!usfvax2!tscs!gerard -US-MAIL: Post Office Box 15395 - Tampa, Florida 33684-5395 I live in Illinois. The Illinois government considers software to to an intangible item and therefore non-taxable. I know this because I work in a computer retail store and consequently sell software. I was therefore surprised when Prentice Hall charged me sales tax. I figured that this was because they were used to dealing in books, which are taxable. I paid all of my bill except for the tax and sent a letter explaining the Illinois law to Prentice-Hall. I have now received another bill for the tax. It should make no difference where their offices are located because the tax is supposed to get to the Illinois government. I'll let you know what happens. Grant Prellwitz -- =====================Grant Prellwitz========================== !ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!pre1 pre1@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP 76474,2121 (CIS) pre1 (BIX) The DOCTOR didn't need a funny line, why do I?