jonathan@ukmug.uk.mugnet.org (Jonathan Allen) (05/21/91)
In a message which someone sent me, Andy Tannenbaum wrote: > I would be quite happy to see some other organization, such as the MINIX > Centre in the U.K. make up a supplementary package with extra programs. > This could be available by FTP from archives, be sold on diskette to people > or something else that was suitable to all parties. I am not happy with this. The MINIX Centre already offer a paper listing and floppy distribution service in the UK for ordinary Usenet postings, and it could work as a natural extention to that, but only if at COST. A lot of people already object to paying money for Usenet stuff, on the grounds that it is supposed to be a no-fee-to-read medium. Also, this suggestion discriminates against the very people it is meant for. Outside of those living and/or working in academia, next to no-one has the necessary connections for FTP. I have e-mail, Usenet read/post, but no Internet access for FTP - neither would many ordinary MINIX hobbyists (at least in Europe). > What is not ok is to have the supplementary package contain the kernel, FS, > MM, or other copyrighted code, neither in source or in binary form. Thus > the supplementary package has to remain a supplement, and not become an > alternative to the PH version. PH's lawyers won't accept that. Saying that > you wil only distribute to people who have a PH version has a low credibility. Funny, even Borland (to mention but one of the major international software vendors) do this. When an upgrade is announced, you simply telephone customer services, quote your serial number and get the upgrade for less than a third of the normal retail price. Lotus did the same when Rel 3 of 1-2-3 came out - I sent in my distribution 'system disc' and they took that as proof of purchase and sent out the cheap upgrade. > For this reason, NLMUG is perhaps not the ideal organization, since they are > currently in "discussion" with PH's lawyers about various subjects of mutual > interest. On the contrary, people such as NLMUG are the best people to do it. Ordinary PH people would have the wool pulled over their eyes too easily in demonstrating proof of ownership (unless done in the most tedious way), while the NLMUG (and other national groups) can almost instantly tell whether someone wanting the extra stuff already has the standard material. Jonathan
mitchell@MDI.COM (Bill Mitchell) (05/22/91)
In article <910521.AA0958@ukmug.uk.mugnet.org> Jonathan Allen <jonathan@ukmug.uk.mugnet.org> writes: >In a message which someone sent me, Andy Tannenbaum wrote: >> I would be quite happy to see some other organization, such as the MINIX >> Centre in the U.K. make up a supplementary package with extra programs. >> This could be available by FTP from archives, be sold on diskette to people >> or something else that was suitable to all parties. > I started that thread, so I'll respond below. I didn't keep my original posting, but it contained some top-of-my-head suggestions for modifying/enhancing the non-net distribution facilities for minix related stuff. Basically, I suggested that arrangements be worked out for PH to distribute their copyrighted stuff (the minix OS) plus the key utilities to form a usable system, but not have exclusive distribution rights to anything not PH copyright. Someone (to be named later) other than PH would administrate OS extensions (386 minix, etc), applications not PH copyright (all the user programs), major application packages (uucp, etc), and so on. That administrator would distribute this stuff in kits keyed to OS version number to distributors. Distributors would probably shake out by region, Minix Centre in the UK, probably PH and others in the US, etc. Distributers other than PH could also distribute PH copyright materials with PH's agreement just like bookstores and some mailorder houses do now. The idea was to provide a user who had purchased minix from PH a way to obtain, say, the 386 upgrades, gcc for minix, and ka9q for minix386 without requiring him to (a) have net access and (b) expend major effort hunting around to locate the stuff he needed and obtain it over the net. This might be workable and it might not, I don't know. Andy and/or PH might be strongly enough opposed to it to make it unworkable, I don't know. It seems to me that it should be workable, and I don't see any reason Andy and/or PH sould be strongly opposed to it. As of now, it's just so much hot air. Perhaps through discussion something concrete will emerge. The administrator and distributors would be welcome to contribute their efforts for free. However, I suggested that it would not be unreasonable for them to be compensated by charging for the disks they sent out. They'd probably have to charge nominal fees anyway just to recover expenses (media, postage, perhaps other stuff). People who thought the fees excessive or who have a moral objection towards paying for stuff they can obtain for free elsewhere would be welcome to obtain minix applications and OS upgrades by whatever means they had available, as they do today. The point was (a) to try adding some order to the chaos, and (b) to provide another distribution channel in addition to (not in place of) the currently existing channels. >I am not happy with this. The MINIX Centre already offer a paper listing >and floppy distribution service in the UK for ordinary Usenet postings, >and it could work as a natural extention to that, but only if at COST. >A lot of people already object to paying money for Usenet stuff, on the >grounds that it is supposed to be a no-fee-to-read medium. > No problem. Those who object to paying money for this service should not pay money for this service. The net is available to them as a no-fee-to-read medium, and they are free to use it to obtain the stuff without fee. >Also, this suggestion discriminates against the very people it is meant for. >Outside of those living and/or working in academia, next to no-one has >the necessary connections for FTP. I have e-mail, Usenet read/post, but >no Internet access for FTP - neither would many ordinary MINIX hobbyists >(at least in Europe). A major benefit would be that neither FTP access nor net access would be needed to obtain this stuff. Send a few bucks to your friendly distributer, and receive a pack of minix disks in the mail a few days later. Don't like sending him a few bucks? Obtain net access and/or FTP access and obtain the stuff using the current distribution system of browsing archives and asking "would some kind person please send me" on the net. > >> What is not ok is to have the supplementary package contain the kernel, FS, >> MM, or other copyrighted code, neither in source or in binary form. Thus >> the supplementary package has to remain a supplement, and not become an >> alternative to the PH version. PH's lawyers won't accept that. Saying that >> you wil only distribute to people who have a PH version has a low credibility. Right. Understood. These details would have to be worked out with PH beforehand. Make them mad and they can make your life miserable. > >Funny, even Borland (to mention but one of the major international software >vendors) do this. When an upgrade is announced, you simply telephone >customer services, quote your serial number and get the upgrade for less >than a third of the normal retail price. Lotus did the same when Rel 3 of >1-2-3 came out - I sent in my distribution 'system disc' and they took that >as proof of purchase and sent out the cheap upgrade. > I think the problem is that PH doesn't conduct business as a software vendor, they conduct business as a textbook vendor. Different distribution strategy. Different support strategy. The distribution and support strategies which work well for textbooks do not work well for software. >> For this reason, NLMUG is perhaps not the ideal organization, since they are >> currently in "discussion" with PH's lawyers about various subjects of mutual >> interest. > See my comment above about it being necessary to work out the details with PH before embarking on this. >On the contrary, people such as NLMUG are the best people to do it. Ordinary >PH people would have the wool pulled over their eyes too easily in >demonstrating proof of ownership (unless done in the most tedious way), while >the NLMUG (and other national groups) can almost instantly tell whether someone >wanting the extra stuff already has the standard material. > I don't know NLMUG except thru net discussion. I'm not sure how being able to tell whether someone wanting extra stuff has standard material has any bearing on this. The situation I'm envisioning is one where I could order "386 upgrade kit, gcc for minix386, and ka9q for minix386 for minix release 1.5", and receive a package of disks in the mail. If I didn't have the minix 1.5 distribution to apply the 386 upgrade kit (probably cdiffs) to or use the applications with, that's my problem - not the distributer's. >Jonathan -- mitchell@mdi.com (Bill Mitchell)
tim%maths.tcd.ie@pucc.princeton.edu (Timothy Murphy) (05/23/91)
> On the contrary, people such as NLMUG are the best people to do it.
I can't understand why NLMUG won't distribute diffs.
Agreed they might be large,
and involve a bit of hassle,
but it would get round the lawyers --
and surely that must be the name of the game.
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-1-772941 x 1507
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland