d6mbeng@dtek.chalmers.se (Magnus Bengtsson) (06/13/91)
In article <1991Jun12.145309.29231@ukpoit.co.uk> paul@ukpoit.co.uk (Paul Wood) writes: >In article <AWB.91Jun11091405@stoat.uk.ac.ed.aipna> awb@ed.ac.uk (Alan W Black) writes: >>As someone else said BSD will be available >>"soon" for almost free. (Someone disagreed but I'm not sure why -- the >>"soon" bit is the most arguable). >My guess is the "almost free" part is the problem. I understand that it >is not going to be free to private individuals. In fact is going to be >very expensive compared to Minix. Can someone clarify? What I heard (or, rather, read somewhere -- I forget where) is that 386BSD will be distributed as part of 4.4BSD in source form only. Since it is not free from AT&T code, you will need a source code license from AT&T, if you want 386BSD. And that is *NOT* free -- it is not even cheap by any standards... Could someone who actually KNOWS the facts confirm or deny this? -- Magnus Bengtsson Chalmers University of Technology d6mbeng@dtek.chalmers.se Gothenburg, Sweden
awb@ed.ac.uk (Alan W Black) (06/15/91)
I'm not sure if this thread should still be in this group but ... >In article <1991Jun13.165309.20341@mathrt0.math.chalmers.se> d6mbeng@dtek.chalmers.se (Magnus Bengtsson) writes: >In article <1991Jun12.145309.29231@ukpoit.co.uk> paul@ukpoit.co.uk (Paul Wood) writes: >>In article <AWB.91Jun11091405@stoat.uk.ac.ed.aipna> awb@ed.ac.uk (Alan W Black) writes: >>>As someone else said BSD will be available >>>"soon" for almost free. (Someone disagreed but I'm not sure why -- the >>>"soon" bit is the most arguable). >>My guess is the "almost free" part is the problem. I understand that it >>is not going to be free to private individuals. In fact is going to be >>very expensive compared to Minix. Can someone clarify? > >What I heard (or, rather, read somewhere -- I forget where) is that >386BSD will be distributed as part of 4.4BSD in source form only. > >Since it is not free from AT&T code, you will need a source code >license from AT&T, if you want 386BSD. And that is *NOT* free -- it is >not even cheap by any standards... > >Could someone who actually KNOWS the facts confirm or deny this? As I understand it there are three contenders for a "free" BSD Unix these are BSD 4.4 "detox", MACH 3.0 (from CMU), and GNU (from FSF) all of which will have 386 PC versions. All three of these projects have a long term goal to produce "free" software in the sense that you will be able to copy and distribute the source without requiring to pay a fee or sign a licence. More precisely they will be free of AT&T source. At present parts of each of these systems are already "free" in that you can freely ftp them from various sites. However, I doubt Berkeley and CMU will be very interested in distributing systems to end users (FSF are probably more interested in that). It will be up to other companies to take 4.4 and MACH and repackage then and sell to end users (Mt. Xinu already does this). This redistribution still costs money, packaging up software, manuals, support, media etc costs so these will not be free of charge but should at least be cheap. Those of us who are on the internet (or similar) will probably be able get the source for free, and probably bootstrap binaries too (as someone is bound to make binaries available by ftp). So there will be a "free" BSD Unix which will not require the expensive AT&T source licence. The problem is when. The MACH kernel is already available, but the higher levels of the system are still restricted. Berkeley has already freed lots of code both in the kernel and in the utilities but it seems to be a fairly random cut. GNU already has many utilities and have started building a kernel based on MACH 3.0 and (they say "perhaps") initially using some BSD4.4 code. Although they all advertise a complete system "real soon now" I suspect it will be at least a year before that happens -- perhaps earlier if you are willing to alpha test the GNU system. This still leaves MINIX as the only Unix system in source form readily available to the masses, and it is likely to remain so for at least some time. Even when these other systems come out, MINIX will still have a place. Its likely to remain the cheapest (unless you have internet access), run on smaller machines and definitely be the most suitable for teaching. Alan Alan W Black 80 South Bridge, Edinburgh, UK Dept of Artificial Intelligence tel: (+44) -31 650 2713 University of Edinburgh email: awb@ed.ac.uk
chris@rubble.UUCP (Chris Nitsopoulos) (06/15/91)
In article <1991Jun13.165309.20341@mathrt0.math.chalmers.se> d6mbeng@dtek.chalmers.se (Magnus Bengtsson) writes: >In article <1991Jun12.145309.29231@ukpoit.co.uk> paul@ukpoit.co.uk (Paul Wood) writes: >>My guess is the "almost free" part is the problem. I understand that it >>is not going to be free to private individuals. In fact is going to be >>very expensive compared to Minix. Can someone clarify? > >What I heard (or, rather, read somewhere -- I forget where) is that >386BSD will be distributed as part of 4.4BSD in source form only. > >Since it is not free from AT&T code, you will need a source code >license from AT&T, if you want 386BSD. And that is *NOT* free -- it is >not even cheap by any standards... > >Could someone who actually KNOWS the facts confirm or deny this? Berkley will release BSD 4.4 in September for i386/486 machines. Accordining to an article in July UNIXWORLD, 4.4 will be free of all AT&T source code. A second release will be made avalible in early 1992 which will be fully Posix compliant and System V Intel binary compatible. Introductory full source code license will be $US995. This is 50% discount from the list price of $1995. Educational discounts will also be avalible. Purchasers of the first release may upgrade, without charge, to the second release. Soon and almost free are definitly true... -- Chris -- chris nitsopoulos chris@rubble.uucp ..!uunet!mnetor!rubble!chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------
kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) (06/16/91)
In article <443@rubble.UUCP> chris@rubble.UUCP (Chris Nitsopoulos) writes: > >Introductory full source code license will be $US995. This is 50% >discount from the list price of $1995. Educational discounts will >also be avalible. Purchasers of the first release may upgrade, >without charge, to the second release. > >Soon and almost free are definitly true... Well, I don't consider $1000 anywhere close to free. Perhaps you are comparing it to the current cost of a source code license, which is more than the cost of the average house in the American Midwest. $1000 is about the same price as the current crop of System V Unixes. However, BSD 4.4 will provide considerably more value by including source. Perhaps this will drive down the cost of the other Unixes. I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen - I wondered if the availability of Minix-386 (which is a *real* good OS IMHO) would drive down the price of the other Unixes, and it never happened. I think we have a good deal in Minix. Free upgrades. Full source. Real working code as opposed to vapourware. Net access to the author and many other gurus. Posix is coming (just like BSD 4.4). And, IMHO, Intel System V binary compatibility probably isn't that important for Minix. Anybody who can afford to buy software in binary form for System V, can also afford to buy BSD 4.4. Minix was intended (and should continue) to be an educational tool. The fact that it is useful in itself is icing on the cake. -- favourite oxymorons: student athlete, military justice, mercy killing Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6 kjh@usc.edu ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
paul@ukpoit.co.uk (Paul Wood) (06/17/91)
In article <443@rubble.UUCP> chris@rubble.UUCP (Chris Nitsopoulos) writes: >Introductory full source code license will be $US995. This is 50% >discount from the list price of $1995. Educational discounts will >also be avalible. Purchasers of the first release may upgrade, >without charge, to the second release. > >Soon and almost free are definitly true... ^^^^^^^^^^^ Huh!, Sorry but I had to read that last line of yours a few times before I could believe it. $US995 may be relatively inexpensive, but compared to Minix's price of $US169, BSD's price of $US995 cannot be called cheap. You may be comparing it with SCO or Interactive, but that is not what the original posting was doing. In this news group we should be comparing it with Minix. -- Paul Wood [ e-mail: paul@ukpoit.co.uk or ...!ukc!ukpoit!paul ] [ address: iT, Barker Lane, Chesterfield, England S40 1DY ] [ phone: +44 246 214256, postline: 5403 4256, fax: +44 246 214353 ]