dh1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Donn Hoffman) (03/28/91)
I am moving to Spain and want to bring several appliances (eg: macintosh, fax, blender, stereo). Power in Spain is 220v/50hz. The appliances are all 110v. Some are labeled 60hz, some are labeled 50/60hz. I have a couple of questions: 1. I am reluctant to trust my fax and mac to the cheap travel transformers sold at Akbar & Jeff's Luggage Hut. Is there some sort of larger, reliable transformer I can get to plug all (or several) of my appliances into? 2. Can someone recommend a store in New York City (or mailorder) where I can buy such a transformer (for best price)? 3. Is 60Hz going to screw up my 50Hz clock radio? If so, can anything be done about this? Thanks, --Donn H.
mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) (03/29/91)
OK, here goes: (1) Transformers are easier to find in Europe than here. If nothing else, you avoid the expense of transporting a large, heavy object across the Atlantic. (2) Each appliance will be rated for either "60 Hz" or "50-60 Hz". Your clock radio almost certainly uses the line frequency for timing and will run at 5/6 of the correct speed when on 50 Hz. (3) Some computers and fax machines can be internally switched over to 220 volts without an external transformer. In fact, there are even a few computers that are intelligent enough to run on any voltage from 100 to 250 volts without your having to even set a switch. -- ------------------------------------------------------- Michael A. Covington | Artificial Intelligence Programs The University of Georgia | Athens, GA 30602 U.S.A. -------------------------------------------------------
chatel@bmerh27.bnr.ca (Marc Chatel) (03/29/91)
Hi,
I have recently received a 220V to 110V 300W transformer from
Knapco in Clearwater, Florida. Got it within a week of ordering (and
I'm in Canada...). The thing is big, heavy, and looks like a tank
could roll over it with no trouble. Cost me something like 53.95 $US
with shipping. And yes (I have a Mac Classic), it fits exactly in a
standard Mac Bag in the spot above the video screen where the handle is.
It does add 5 pounds to the bag, though...
I'm sorry I don't have their exact address with me, but I'll try
to get it at home tonight. I'll try to send another item Monday.
Regards,
Marc.kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov ( Scott Dorsey) (03/29/91)
In article <gbwV9z_00jVM4FsFs9@andrew.cmu.edu> dh1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Donn Hoffman) writes: >Power in Spain is 220v/50hz. The appliances are all 110v. Some are >labeled 60hz, some are labeled 50/60hz. > >1. I am reluctant to trust my fax and mac to the cheap travel >transformers sold at Akbar & Jeff's Luggage Hut. Is there some sort >of larger, reliable transformer I can get to plug all (or several) of >my appliances into? Most of those devices are not transformers, but either diodes or dropping resistors. This is not good. Your best bet for reliability is to get some of the Sola Electric 110-220 units, which any good industrial electronics place will carry. Or get a large 220 transformer with a center tap and use it as an autotransformer, ignoring the secondary. C&H surplus is a good place to look for such things, but because of the weight you are probably better off purchasing them locally. >2. Can someone recommend a store in New York City (or mailorder) >where I can buy such a transformer (for best price)? I can't offhand, But I am sure that looking in the yellow pages under electrical supplies is a good start. Can I say yellow pages on the net? >3. Is 60Hz going to screw up my 50Hz clock radio? If so, can anything >be done about this? It probably will screw it up, unless it's crystal controlled. And it is possible to replace gears to increase the speed to a normal rate, but first of all you'll notice a problem with the motor generating additional heat, and second of all it will cost you a whole lot more money than buying a new clock radio. --scott
karn@epic.bellcore.com (Phil R. Karn) (03/29/91)
European power differs from American power in three ways: the voltage is different (220/240V vs 110/120V), the frequency (50 vs 60 Hz) and the plug (the UK has one type, the Continent another, and both are quite different from the North American style). Converting plugs is easy; converting voltage is harder (you usually need a transformer) and converting frequency is hardest of all (you need a motor-generator set or AC/DC/AC rectifier/inverter combination - impractical in most cases.) Whether a given American appliance can be operated in Europe (with or without a transformer) depends very much on that appliance. Given the international nature of the appliance market, more and more units are built in a common "export version", with a switch for operation on either 110V or 220V. These appliances are by far the easiest to deal with, requiring only a plug adaptor (or new line cord) to mate with European outlets. Much modern computer equipment (PCs, AC-powered disk drives and printers, but NOT modems and monitors) use switching power supplies, and many (if not most) of these supplies are readily operable on 220V 50 Hz. Just throw the line voltage switch and connect up a cord with the appropriate plug. Modern switching power supplies invariably rectify and filter the power line directly, so they are not at all sensitive to line frequency. The line rectifier is usually designed to operate as a full-wave bridge on a 220V line and as a voltage doubler on a 110V line, so all it takes is a SPST switch to select the mode of operation. This design seems to be universal in personal computers. One of the characteristics of a switching power supply is the ability to operate efficiently over a wide input voltage range. This feature has been taken one step further in the development of 110/220V supplies that do not require manual switching; they are simply designed to operate over a 2:1 input voltage range. This design is becoming common in laptop computer power supplies. Monitors and modems generally do not use switching supplies, so they have power transformers. If the unit has a 110/220V switch and is rated for 50/60 Hz operation, no problem. If the unit is for 110V operation only it MAY be safely operable from a stepdown transformer; I say MAY because some transformers intended for 60 Hz operation may overheat when operated at 50 Hz. The rest of the unit probably won't care about the line frequency because the output of the power transformer is rectified and filtered to DC anyway. (If the filter caps are marginal, you might have increased hum problems at 50 Hz). TV sets generally do not have power transformers (they rectify the line directly), so they should operate okay from 110V 50 Hz. Unfortunately, US TV sets use the NTSC standard while television in Europe is either PAL or SECAM, so your set wouldn't be of much use over there except for playing back NTSC tapes on your NTSC VCR. Stereos, CD players and most ham gear are similar to computer monitors in that they usually have power transformers; the same considerations apply regarding the change in line frequency. Hair dryers, incandescent lamps, brush-type motor power tools, etc, can be operated off 220V through those small "travel converters" that are simply high power rectifiers. They produce a strong DC component, but that will not bother these appliances. NB! Do NOT use one of these converters on anything that has a power transformer! (Many travel kits have two adapters, a 1KW diode model for the aforementioned appliances and a 50W model that uses a step down transformer. When in doubt, always use the transformer model if it can handle the required load.) Alarm clocks or other devices with synchronous motors (e.g., turntables and analog tape decks) will NOT operate properly off European power even with a transformer, as their motor speeds are determined by the power frequency. (This may not be true for ALL alarm clocks, turntables and tape decks as some may have internal crystal clock references, but without knowing the design you can't be sure.) Note that CD players are not a problem here as their internals are always driven from a crystal reference, not the AC power line. So the bottom line is that it's not easy to make generalizations about how easy it is to operate a given US appliance in Europe. Unless it was clearly designed to operate off either 120 or 240V power, you can't really tell for sure without a look at the schematic. Phil
koning@koning.enet.dec.com (Paul Koning) (03/29/91)
|> |>European power differs from American power in three ways: the voltage |>is different (220/240V vs 110/120V), the frequency (50 vs 60 Hz) and |>the plug (the UK has one type, the Continent another, and both are |>quite different from the North American style). Converting plugs is |>easy; converting voltage is harder (you usually need a transformer) |>and converting frequency is hardest of all (you need a motor-generator |>set or AC/DC/AC rectifier/inverter combination - impractical in most |>cases.) |>... Actually, the story for plugs is a bit worse. If you don't need a ground, then indeed there are only two types to worry about. But you probably do want to ground stuff. In that case, there are a whole lot more variants: the continent uses a bunch of different locations for the grounding pin. According to my reference, the distinct cases are (1) Switzerland, (2) Italy, (3) Denmark, (4) Belgium/France, (5) the others. I've seen plugs that handle both (4) and (5), but the remaining cases each need their own plug. paul
burgett@burgund.adobe.com (Michael Burgett) (03/29/91)
In article <1991Mar28.211132.3521@bellcore.bellcore.com> karn@epic.bellcore.com (Phil R. Karn) writes:
[... much good and useful info deleted for brevity....]
Alarm clocks or other devices with synchronous motors (e.g.,
turntables and analog tape decks) will NOT operate properly off
European power even with a transformer, as their motor speeds are
determined by the power frequency. (This may not be true for ALL
alarm clocks, turntables and tape decks as some may have internal
crystal clock references, but without knowing the design you can't be
sure.) Note that CD players are not a problem here as their internals
are always driven from a crystal reference, not the AC power line.
The key here, is if it has a motor, ac motors will run slow, dc motors will
run fine. A crystal reference isn't always necessary. Digital clocks (which
don't even have a motor) will often run slow, but if you have a spec sheet on
the clock chip used, it's usually simple a matter of adding or lifting ground
from a particular pin to change between 50 and 60 Hz.
Good post.... mike burgett burgett@adobe.comwb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) (03/29/91)
If you want to buy large 110--->220 v xfmrs, Try Electronic Surplus, Inc 216-621-1052. I noticed several in their latest catalog. Note that they ARE heavy, and no transformer solves the 50/60 hz problem. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu & no one will talk to a host that's close............(305) 255-RTFM Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335 is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335
mzenier@polari.UUCP (Mark Zenier) (03/31/91)
In article <gbwV9z_00jVM4FsFs9@andrew.cmu.edu> dh1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Donn Hoffman) writes: >I am moving to Spain and want to bring several appliances (eg: >macintosh, fax, blender, stereo). > >Power in Spain is 220v/50hz. The appliances are all 110v. Some are >labeled 60hz, some are labeled 50/60hz. > >1. I am reluctant to trust my fax and mac to the cheap travel >transformers sold at Akbar & Jeff's Luggage Hut. Is there some sort >of larger, reliable transformer I can get to plug all (or several) of >my appliances into? Over there, try an appliance store near a US Military base. According to ex-miltary friends, 220->110 volt autotransformers are quite common. If there are some sort of classified adds or for sale bulliten board, check them. Departing personel don't want to ship a useless converter back home. Mark Zenier markz@ssc.uucp mzenier@polari.uucp
gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) (04/01/91)
In article <gbwV9z_00jVM4FsFs9@andrew.cmu.edu> dh1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Donn Hoffman) writes: >I am moving to Spain and want to bring several appliances (eg: >macintosh, fax, blender, stereo). >Power in Spain is 220v/50hz. The appliances are all 110v. Some are >labeled 60hz, some are labeled 50/60hz. >I have a couple of questions: >1. I am reluctant to trust my fax and mac to the cheap travel >transformers sold at Akbar & Jeff's Luggage Hut. Is there some sort >of larger, reliable transformer I can get to plug all (or several) of >my appliances into? >2. Can someone recommend a store in New York City (or mailorder) >where I can buy such a transformer (for best price)? >3. Is 60Hz going to screw up my 50Hz clock radio? If so, can anything >be done about this? Most things won't care about the 50 hz power. Motors and transformers designed for 60 hz will run hotter than normal, so if you've got equipment that runs rather warm *now*, I'd be a little concerned about running it on 50 hz. Syncronous motors will run slower of course. Switching power supplies generally won't care at all. In fact, many switching power supplies won't even care if you feed them 220 instead of 110 though some will have a switch or jumper that they would prefer that you set to the proper voltage. Your absolute best bet is to buy a full time sinewave UPS. You can charge the batteries with 220 50 hz with no problem and the inverter in the UPS will supply steady 110 volt 60 hz power to your equipment. Power in Spain tends to be a little unreliable anyway so this would probably be a good idea even if they produced 110 volt 60 hz. A 800 to 1200 watt fulltime UPS can be had new for around $1000 or you can pickup a rebuilt one for around $300 or you might scrounge one that needs a little repair for free. Check with the MIS departments of neighboring companies and schools. The shipping charges to Spain might break you though. These things tend to be heavy. Gary KE4ZV
chatel@bmerh27.bnr.ca (Marc Chatel) (04/01/91)
Hi,
I have found the address of the place I got my 220V/110V
transformer from:
KNAPCO
1201 Hamlet Ave.
Clearwater, Florida
34616
Order Hot line: 800-827-4718
Other phone: 813-449-0019
I got their name from an advertisement in BYTE magazine.
Regards,
Marc.wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) (04/04/91)
I found the catalog from my favorite surplus house. Here's what they list in big xfmrs: 1) a four winding beast: each winding 104/110/120 v. @ 14 amps. So you can step up, down or sideways ;-} 75 #'s light $149.00 2) 240/480 in, 90 v out. 1500w. Ignore the secondary, use it 240-->120 autoxfmr. 52#, $99.00 3) 220/480 in, 13v@60a,56@10, 115@10 out. as in 2), 88#, $99.00 These are at R&D Electronics, 800-642-1123, real technocrats @ 216 621-1052. My only connection with them is I've left lots of my money there over the last 20 years... Keep the problems Phil mentioned in mind before you buy a big xfmr. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu & no one will talk to a host that's close............(305) 255-RTFM Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335 is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335
rbl@nitrex.UUCP ( Dr. Robin Lake ) (04/14/91)
In article <gbwV9z_00jVM4FsFs9@andrew.cmu.edu> dh1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Donn Hoffman) writes: |>I am moving to Spain and want to bring several appliances (eg: |>macintosh, fax, blender, stereo). |> |>Power in Spain is 220v/50hz. The appliances are all 110v. Some are |>labeled 60hz, some are labeled 50/60hz. |> |>I have a couple of questions: |> |>1. I am reluctant to trust my fax and mac to the cheap travel |>transformers sold at Akbar & Jeff's Luggage Hut. Is there some sort |>of larger, reliable transformer I can get to plug all (or several) of |>my appliances into? |> Don't bother with plugging your Mac into the transformer. Macs use switching power supplies which run on anything up to 240v. Just get the appropriate physical adapters for the line cord plug to fit into the wall socket outlets. Depending upon your clock radio ... it may or may not lose time on 50Hz. Mechanical ones will, almost certainly (10 minutes/hour). Some digital ones may, depending upon the label on the back/bottom of the clock radio. Rob Lake BP Research lake@rcwcl1.dnet.bp.com
kent@sunfs3.Camex.COM (Kent Borg) (04/16/91)
In article <549@nitrex.UUCP> rbl@nitrex.UUCP (Robin Lake) writes: >Don't bother with plugging your Mac into the transformer. Macs use switching >power supplies which run on anything up to 240v. Just get the appropriate >physical adapters for the line cord plug to fit into the wall socket outlets. Wrong, it depends on which Mac you have. To be sure, see what it says on the voltage panel on the back. Short list of US Macs that *can* work on 120-240 V: Mac II Mac IIx Mac IIfx SE SE/30 IIsi IIcx IIci Short list of US Macs that *cannot* work on 240 V: Original 128K 512K 512KE Mac Plus Portable (when plugged in :) with US charger/power supply) Classic (though might be a jumper inside you can change) LC (I think--again, might be a jumper for 240 if so) Laserwriter Imagewriter Finally, don't trust *me*, look at the UL label on the back. -- Kent Borg internet: kent@camex.com AOL: kent borg H:(617) 776-6899 W:(617) 426-3577 "We foolishly did not realize that he was stupid." - April Glasbie 3-20-91