ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) (07/20/89)
Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation Keywords: While there are almost as many opinions on cage birds' diets as there are possible diets themselves, I'd like to pass on some of the work being done at Texas A&M by their veterinary researchers. There is an ongoing cockatoo study that has been in progress for the past 10 years where the birds have been fed ONLY high quality, low fat, low ash content dry dog food (yep, DOG FOOD). The birds in the study have produced young at an abnormally high rate, and the birds have had lower incidence of normal cage bird diseases. Our avian vet has fed her amazons, cockatoos, hawk heads, etc. etc. Science Diet dog food for the past few years now. While local breeders screech "Animal protein....YEEEECH", other avian vets concur about dog food being good for cage birds. As far as the pellets v. seed debate, it seems to have become almost religious in its intensity. My birds get science diet, kellogs pellets, and fresh fruits and vegetables. My yellow nape was on a seed diet until my vet pointed out that this is not good. Since switching him to pellets, his feather color, quality, and his overall disposition has improved considerably. My wild caught cockatoo was more difficult to switch over, but he is now eating pellets as well as fruits and vegetables. It took a lot of persistance, as well as monitoring daily weight and food intake (starting with a 50% 50% mix of seeds to pellets and gradually (over weeks) cutting down the seeds) but his feathers and color has also improved. It took a year on the new diet to notice major differences, but at least for my birds, the pellets seem to have made them healtheir. Mikki Barry --
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (07/21/89)
In article <1292@intercon.UUCP>, ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) writes: > and fresh fruits and vegetables. My yellow nape was on a seed diet > until my vet pointed out that this is not good. Seed diets are "not good"? I'd like to see the evidence to support this. > Since switching him to > pellets, his feather color, quality, and his overall disposition has > improved considerably. It took a year on the new diet to notice major > differences, but at least for my birds, the pellets seem to have made them > healtheir. Give me a year with some Nekton, FRESH fruits and vegetables and seed and I'm sure my birds would look just as healthy AND their stool would be NORMAL for a bird. Brown stools are not normal for everyday excretions and brown runny stools are what you get with pellets. Birds may get a more concentrated dose of vitamins and minerals, but is their digestive tract suffering? Will birds on these pellets have a higher incidence of digestive tract cancers? Diahrea? WHO KNOWS? NO ONE? Pellets haven't been around long enough to determine. Sure, I use them, but they ARE NOT my brids sole source of bulk. Maybe this is religious, but I don't feed my animals on faith.
ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) (07/21/89)
In article <6514@cloud9.Stratus.COM>, mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) writes: > Give me a year with some Nekton, FRESH fruits and vegetables and seed > and I'm sure my birds would look just as healthy AND their stool would > be NORMAL for a bird. Brown stools are not normal for everyday > excretions and brown runny stools are what you get with pellets. My nape's stools are red and quite firm (kellogs pellets do this) while my wild caught cockatoo who prefers purina has green firm stools. My weaning baby cockatoo who eats mostly science diet as well as fruits and vegetables has greenish brown firm stools. When first feeding birds fresh fruits and vegetables, you very well might get runny stools regardless of whether the base diet is seed or pellets. I pay my avian vet well for her opinions. Especially since my nape was in very sorry shape when I bought him. He was a first bird and I knew very very little about what to look for. When he was cultured, the nape had multiple avian bacterial infections and was very malnourished. He had been receiving seeds and nekton exclusively. I'm not saying that he has improved solely because he is on a pelleted diet. However, since my wild cockatoo had been on seeds, nekton, and fresh fruits and vegetables (which he had been fed for a year before I bought him) and is now on pellets and has undergone considerable improvements in appearance, I *can* say that I'm glad I switched him over. On the other hand, a breeder that I admire very much feeds her babies kellogs fortified seeds (no sunflower mix) as well as fruits and veggies (and nekton) and also has beautiful birds. She says that a good fortified seed mix (usually fortified with pellets and pellet powder like the kellogs seeds are) will give birds good nutrition. Probably quite a bit has to do with exactly what is in the seeds, and what mix of seeds to other foods you give. Mikki Barry --
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (07/25/89)
In article <1295@intercon.UUCP>, ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) writes: > > In article <6514@cloud9.Stratus.COM>, mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) writes: > > Give me a year with some Nekton, FRESH fruits and vegetables and seed > > and I'm sure my birds would look just as healthy AND their stool would > > be NORMAL for a bird. Brown stools are not normal for everyday > > excretions and brown runny stools are what you get with pellets. > > My nape's stools are red and quite firm (kellogs pellets do this) while > my wild caught cockatoo who prefers purina has green firm stools. > I pay my avian vet well for her opinions. Especially since my nape was in > very sorry shape when I bought him. How much you pay your vet shouldn't influence what you feed your birds or be a judgement of the soundness of the advice you receive. I say this more as a general guideline for everyone than relating to you solely and mostly because it's a sore spot with me. You can often gain ALOT of knowledge the "old fashined way" (research into books and trial and error). If pellets are your bag, than fine, but please don't tout them as the end all beat all of bird food and certainly don't use them just because they are easier to clean up after. > He was a first bird and I knew very > very little about what to look for. When he was cultured, the nape had > multiple avian bacterial infections and was very malnourished. He had > been receiving seeds and nekton exclusively. I'm not saying that he has > improved solely because he is on a pelleted diet. Sorry Mikki, but it DOES sound like (to me at least) that you ARE indeed touting pellets as the "grand saviour" of the Parrot World. > However, since my wild > cockatoo had been on seeds, nekton, and fresh fruits and vegetables (which > he had been fed for a year before I bought him) and is now on pellets and > has undergone considerable improvements in appearance, I *can* say that I'm > glad I switched him over. There are MANY reasons that might contribute to your Nape AND your Cockatoo doing better. In the nape's case it sounds like better care in general would have yielded excellent results while in the cock's case, it's even possible for a moult to cause the appearance of the bird to change for the better. IF your cock is doing SO much better on pellets, I'll bet that he wan't getting full nutrition from his previous diet and NOT BECAUSE seeds are inherently deficient in vitamins (old seed is) but because birds can pick and choose within the seed which leaves the burden of nutrition up to the owner by finding which seeds are NOT eaten and forcing the birds to eat these or substituting foods that contain similiar nutrative value. Pellets are a quick fix in my opinion and often make up for a wrong that should be rights the RIGHT way. This is why my birds get a MIX of seeds and pellets (and what do you know, I didn't have to mortgage my vet since she happens to agree with me 8-). By the way, if the Nekton was given by water, I don't consider it to be given to the bird. They don't drink enough to get enough. > On the other hand, a breeder that I admire very much feeds her babies > kellogs fortified seeds (no sunflower mix) as well as fruits and veggies > (and nekton) and also has beautiful birds. She says that a good fortified > seed mix (usually fortified with pellets and pellet powder like the kellogs > seeds are) will give birds good nutrition. Probably quite a bit has to do > with exactly what is in the seeds, and what mix of seeds to other foods > you give. "Quite a bit" is an understatement. EVERYTHING has to do with what is in the seed and what kind of seed it is and how FRESH it is. I reccommend Topper Seed from Topper Bird Ranch in North Carolina. Anyone can send mail for the phone number or you can find it in Bird Talk. Michael
mcclaren@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Tim McClarren) (07/25/89)
In article <6603@cloud9.Stratus.COM> mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) writes: > [lots of stuff regarding pellets vs. seed] I'm a bit confused at this point as you are saying that seed is just as nutritional as pellets. That's all fine and dandy, but you seem awfully hard set against people feeding pellets to their birds and haven't said anything as to why. I see nothing wrong with feeding a bird pellets. You don't have to worry that it will eat only what it wants to... By simple mathematics, if the seed contains less nutrients, then the bird will be getting less nutrients if it eats the same amount of seed as it would pellets, provided they go through similar digestive processes. Also, your argument about Nekton fed given in water doesn't make sense. If I put enough Nekton in the water (which is a VERY small amount, incidentally), then it doesn't matter how much water the bird drinks, he'll get enough in the first gulp. Note however, that I don't use this method nor recommend it. I don't think 'over-vitamining' a bird is any healthier. Just have to figure out how much water your bird drinks, use a proportionate amount of Nekton. Tim McClarren mcclaren@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu
ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) (07/25/89)
In article <6603@cloud9.Stratus.COM>, mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) writes: > IF your cock is doing SO much better > on pellets, I'll bet that he wan't getting full nutrition > from his previous diet and NOT BECAUSE seeds are inherently > deficient in vitamins (old seed is) but because birds can > pick and choose within the seed which leaves the burden of > nutrition up to the owner by finding which seeds are NOT > eaten and forcing the birds to eat these or substituting > foods that contain similiar nutrative value. Pellets are a > quick fix in my opinion and often make up for a wrong that > should be rights the RIGHT way. This is why my birds get a > MIX of seeds and pellets (and what do you know, I didn't > have to mortgage my vet since she happens to agree with me > 8-). My goodness, we seem to have hit a nerve with Mike today! If you care to reread what I wrote, you will find that I was speaking specificially about MY birds and what I feed them and how they are reacting to what I am feeding them. I did not say YOU should feed your birds pellets. Heaven forbid I advocate you not picking through your bird's bowl to make sure he is eating all of the right seeds to get the correct vitamin/mineral mix! Heaven forbid that I advocate a diet that is EASIER and contains a good nutritious balance without leaving it to chance. Heaven forbid I advocate a diet that has a constant nutritional content without having to sprout them to make sure! Mike, what the hell is the "right" way? You are the one mentioning "right" (and I assume that means you must think there is a "wrong" too?) If you happen to have the "right" way, please inform all those who have been doing research on avian nutrition for the past "n" years. I'm sure they will immediately stop what they are doing and listen to you. To repeat. MY BIRDS GET PELLETS, SCIENCE DIET DOG FOOD, FRUIT AND VEGGIES, VITAMINS, AND OCCASIONALLY SOME SEEDS. MY BIRDS LOOK BETTER THAN THEY DID ON JUST SEEDS, NEKTON, AND FRUIT AND VEGGIES. *I* AM HAPPY WITH THIS. *YOU* MAY NOT BE. If I recall correctly, someone asked for opinions on feeding birds. Many of us gave our opinions. If you wish to cause a seed v. pellets war, great. Count me out. Mikki Barry --
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (07/25/89)
>> Pellets are a >> quick fix in my opinion and often make up for a wrong that >> should be rights the RIGHT way. This sounds an awful like "If God had intended birds to eat pellets, then She would have created pellet trees" -- high on emotional content, nil on information. If pellets are so bad, why do most zoos and other major avian institutions rely on them so heavily? With such good results? And why do most avian nutritionists (such as Roudybush at UC Davis) push pellets if you can convert your birds to them? From my reading of the research I can get my hands on, the experts feel that pellets are now at the point where they are the way to go if you can get the birds eating them. What do you know that the experts don't? Pellet forumlations have changed radically in the last five years as avian research has hit the point where we finally understand (or start to) what makes them tick and don't just assume they're funny colored chickens. Sheesh. Another religious discussion. Chuq Von Rospach =|= Editor,OtherRealms =|= Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com =|= CI$: 73317,635 =|= AppleLink: CHUQ [This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.]
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (07/26/89)
>I'm a bit confused at this point as you are saying that seed is just as >nutritional as pellets. Both seeds and pellets have strengths and weaknesses. What works best depends on the time/interest of the owner and the peculiarities of the bird. The reality is that you can build a good, solid nutrional basis for a bird with either. With both, there should be fresh food supplements as well to help out. There are no panaceas and no single right way. A few weaknesses of pellets: o There isn't the long term, multi-generational track record for pellets that seed has. This is changing and pellets are starting to prove themselves. o Not all birds will eat them. Not all birds will eat them reliably. Imagine eating oatmeal three times a day for the rest of your life. This is why fresh supplements are important for pellet diets. Birds get bored, too. o Pellets are not as universally available. This is also changing now that people like Purina have figured out that birds are a major pet market. o Pellets are possibly more expensive than seeds. Maybe, maybe not, depending on how much seed spoilage you have. If your bird is a messy eater and you wade through the seed hulls to get to the cage every evening, you may actually find seed more expensive unless you re-use it by filtering the chaff.... A few weaknesses of seeds: o Nutritionally unstable. You don't always know whether what you get is fresh. It can go bad on you after you buy it. o Even if it is fresh, the bird might just ignore your carefully blended mix. You can force your kid to eat his lima beans. If you give your bird a nutritionally balanced mix of seed and it only eats the chili peppers, all you're doing is wasting a lot of seed. With pellet, if they're eating it, they're getting a balanced food. o It encourages moth infestations (Laurie and I ended up with *every* flour product in the house in plastic and they *still* got into the Bisquick after one batch of seed that was infested. Now it all lives outside and if it's questionable goes into the freezer). o seeds are not 100% used and create a mess. Pellets are 100% eaten, so you won't find seed hulls in every room in the house (I swear that my cockatoo gets out of the cage during the day and carries seeds into every room. Just to spite me. I keep buying more powerful vacuum cleaners. She keeps getting better at throwing more and more stuff on the carpet.) It's all a trade-off. Seed is more traditional, pellets are easier and less likely to go bad on you, but you may not get your bird to eat them. The important thing is to do what's best for your birds. Chuq Von Rospach =|= Editor,OtherRealms =|= Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com =|= CI$: 73317,635 =|= AppleLink: CHUQ [This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.]
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (07/26/89)
In article <1556@garcon.cso.uiuc.edu>, mcclaren@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Tim McClarren) writes: > > I'm a bit confused at this point as you are saying that seed is just as > nutritional as pellets. What *I SAID* was that a FULL diet partially comprised of seed will provide the elements necessary for the birds diet. I never said a seed only diet will do this and in fact mentioned profusely that I feed my birds a mix of seed, pellets and a variety of other natural foods. No ONE food (and I DO consider pellets ONE food) can provide ALL the nutritional requirements a bird needs. This we know. What we do NOT know is the nutritional requirements of parrots and I'd be highly suspicious of an avian vet that told me otherwise. > That's all fine and dandy, but you seem awfully > hard set against people feeding pellets to their birds and haven't said > anything as to why. I see nothing wrong with feeding a bird pellets. I'm not hard set against anyone feeding their birds whatever they want, but I am hard set against someone expounding the merits of a pellet ONLY diet (veggies/fruits excluded). Until there's PROOF that long term feeding of a pellet only diet is not detrimental to birds GENERAL LONG TERM health (think about how little time pellets have been available commercially) I'll avoid it as the only nutritive factor in my birds diet. Did you ever wonder why there are now 4 kinds of pellets in my local store with each one containing an entirely different formula? Personally, I care too much about my birds overall health to experiment with a food because it's more convenient and/or advertised as an all-in-one food. > By simple mathematics, if the seed contains less nutrients, then > the bird will be getting less nutrients if it eats the same amount of > seed as it would pellets, provided they go through similar digestive > processes. And provided they are given a seed only diet. I never suggested such a silly idea. > Also, your argument about Nekton fed given in water doesn't > make sense. That's ok. Neither does your following argument. 8-} > If I put enough Nekton in the water (which is a VERY small > amount, incidentally), then it doesn't matter how much water the bird > drinks, he'll get enough in the first gulp. Note however, that I don't > use this method nor recommend it. First off, you contradict yourself. You devise a method for administering vitamins and then go on to say that you don't use the method NOR recommend it. Analogically, I could say that I don't know how much oil my car will need so I'll overfill it (which is very harmful to the engine) to make sure it gets as much as it needs. Sprinkle small amounts on the food, dust the food with Superpreen or use a fortified seed like Topper and you're doing much better. > I don't think 'over-vitamining' a bird is any healthier. > Just have to figure out how much water your > bird drinks, use a proportionate amount of Nekton. You may not be aware of this but birds NEVER drink the same amount of water hour to hour (much less day to day). There is NO WAY you can tell how much your bird will drink nor how much vitamins your birds are getting when they are added to the water (SOME birds WON'T drink the water if there's vitamins in it which is another reason not to put vitamins in water since it's too hard to tell how much water is missing and whether it's been downed by the bird or it just ook a small bath in it). Because of this you are making a contradictory remark. You might WELL be "overvitamining" your bird. Like I said, a religious issue. I'm sure that we all care about these birds in general, not just our own which is why we get so concerned over what everyone feeds their birds since no one is sure what's best. Certainly I would never claim I know all things about parrot diets, but I can safely say that I don't think any vet or food company does either and don't believe that anyone should be suckered into thinking that they do either. So how about this, you feed your birds what you think is right and I'll do the same and wish the best for you and your bird(s).
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (07/26/89)
In article <1305@intercon.UUCP>, ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) writes: > > My goodness, we seem to have hit a nerve with Mike today! Not at all Mikki. > Mike, what the hell is the "right" way? You are the one mentioning "right" > (and I assume that means you must think there is a "wrong" too?) If you > happen to have the "right" way, please inform all those who have been doing > research on avian nutrition for the past "n" years. I'm sure they will > immediately stop what they are doing and listen to you. It seems YOU'RE the one with the sensative nerves Mikke. I don't care for your language nor for the personal attack. Like I said, this is a religious issue and there's sure to be some personal opinions but I don't see the need for sarcasm and vulgarity. > If I recall correctly, someone asked for opinions on feeding birds. Many > of us gave our opinions. If you wish to cause a seed v. pellets war, great. > Count me out. Hit and run. Nice.
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (07/26/89)
In article <33456@apple.Apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > This sounds an awful like "If God had intended birds to eat pellets, then > She would have created pellet trees" -- high on emotional content, nil on ^^^ Speaking of religious issues. 8-} If G-d intended us to fly we'd have wings? No. But if we weren't intended to fly we wouldn't know so much about flight and we DIDN'T fly WELL until we did RESEARCH and discovered the mysteries of flight. > If pellets are so bad, why do most zoos and other major avian... Now I never said that pellets are "so bad" now did I? Please don't set me up OR put words in my mouth. I could just as easily say that you are saying SEEDS ARE NO GOOD. I don't do I? > From my reading of the research I can get my hands on, the experts feel that > pellets are now at the point where they are the way to go if you can get the > birds eating them. What do you know that the experts don't? X (old) -spurt (drip). 8-} Like I said, if I am shown proof of pellets contents stabilizing and that pellets don't cause long term damage to birds digestive tracts I'll buy into it (you think I LIKE picking up seed hulls?). The "experts" told us DC-10's were safe and Pinto's wouldn't explode. I'm just making a point. Experts as you call them do not know everything about parrots? Or do they? Who knows? What's an avian expert? Someone who's done research at a University or someone who has years of experience? A combination of both? > forumlations have changed radically in the last five years as avian research > has hit the point where we finally understand (or start to) what makes them > tick and don't just assume they're funny colored chickens. So you admit that up until now (and only just STARTING as you say) they were just "funny colored chickens". Maybe I'm from the old school. Maybe I'm religious about what I feed my birds but I'm not closed minded. I do keep in touch with my vets and with TUfts Medical school on a regular basis and my information contradicts what I've been hearing here. That's all. I'll bow out gracefully since I seem to be the brunt of alot of anxiety here. Go in peace everyone!
ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) (07/26/89)
In article <33457@apple.Apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > o seeds are not 100% used and create a mess. Pellets are 100% eaten, so > you won't find seed hulls in every room in the house (I swear that my > cockatoo gets out of the cage during the day and carries seeds into every > room. Just to spite me. I keep buying more powerful vacuum cleaners. She > keeps getting better at throwing more and more stuff on the carpet.) Well, not quite. My cockatoos throw out some of the pellets too. A bit confusing that a bird would choose one identical item from another and that one would end up outside the cage. Unfortunately, if you are looking for a clean up solution, pellets aren't necessarily the answer. However, the Fenix feeders (sp?) with the high rounded back *do* cut down quite a bit on cockatoo mess. I highly recommend them. A good vaccuum can't hurt either :-) Mikki barry --
ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) (07/26/89)
In article <6634@cloud9.Stratus.COM>, mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) writes: > It seems YOU'RE the one with the sensative nerves Mikke. I don't care > for your language nor for the personal attack. Like I said, this is > a religious issue and there's sure to be some personal opinions but > I don't see the need for sarcasm and vulgarity. If you reread what I wrote, you will be hard pressed to find vulgarity, or personal attacks. I was responding to what *you* wrote concerning my opinions on pelleted foods. You put words in my mouth concerning what I believe birds should be fed. You inserted some of your own sarcasm, etc. and I responded in kind. If you have a problem with that, take it to e-mail. Mikki Barry --
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (07/27/89)
In article <1310@intercon.UUCP>, ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) writes: > If you reread what I wrote, you will be hard pressed to find vulgarity, or > personal attacks. I was responding to what *you* wrote concerning my opinions > on pelleted foods. You put words in my mouth concerning what I believe birds > should be fed. You inserted some of your own sarcasm, etc. and I responded > in kind. If you have a problem with that, take it to e-mail. Hey, I offered to bow out gracefully, is there a reason why you can't accept that and just go on with other conversation instead of contradicting everything I say with "No YOU said it!". This is becoming rather degraded very quickly and I don't appreciate the forced attacks. PLEASE let's just let it drop. Feed your bird whatever you want and have a really nice day!