ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) (08/01/89)
In article <3012@nmtsun.nmt.edu>, john@nmtsun.nmt.edu (John Shipman) writes: > Finally, I'd like to throw one entirely gratuitous flame in > the direction of the bird owners. Please try to avoid > buying birds that were taken from the wild. There are many > species being bred in captivity, so whether you like them > small or large, quiet or vocal, you have many choices that > don't diminish dwindling wild populations. I commend the > efforts of breeders to establish self-sustaining captive > populations. I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit. It was generally my opinion that catching birds from the wild for export was a bad thing. But after speaking with some owners of quarantine stations, they justify it by saying that the birds that are now coming in are in such sorry shape due to habitat destruction and lack of adequate nutrition, that the birds will soon die in the wild if they are not taken for pets. Personally, I think that taking some from the wild as breeders with the goal of perpetuating the species (especially if it is in danger of extinction as are many of the amazon parrots and macaws) is ok if done in moderation. Also, Moluccan cockatoos are apparently in danger of extinction, and generally are so adaptable to their situations that they come to like their owners and seem happy as pets. I'd appreciate any information from those who know more about the situation. I'm sure there is a lot more to both sides of the argument than I am aware of. Mikki Barry--
dmark@cs.Buffalo.EDU (David Mark) (08/01/89)
In article <1316@intercon.UUCP> ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) writes: > >In article <3012@nmtsun.nmt.edu>, john@nmtsun.nmt.edu (John Shipman) writes: >> Finally, I'd like to throw one entirely gratuitous flame in >> the direction of the bird owners. Please try to avoid >> buying birds that were taken from the wild. ... > >I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit. It was generally my opinion >that catching birds from the wild for export was a bad thing. But after >speaking with some owners of quarantine stations, they justify it by saying >that the birds that are now coming in are in such sorry shape due to habitat >destruction and lack of adequate nutrition, that the birds will soon die >in the wild if they are not taken for pets. Sorry, Mikki, but this reminds me a lot of the idea that we have to shoot deer in order to "save" them from starvation. So, as far as the _individual_ bird is concerned, it is best off in the wild (in my opinion). > >Personally, I think that taking some from the wild as breeders with the goal >of perpetuating the species (especially if it is in danger of extinction >as are many of the amazon parrots and macaws) is ok if done in moderation. ...and done by appropriate agencies, or at least through them. It is my opinion that the "agent" doing the captive breeding program should be a government or UN agency, or the IUCN, or the World Wildlife fund, or the such. Now, if those agencies wish to subcontract to well-qualified individuals to do the breeding, fine. But the products of that captive breeding MUST be for re-stocking in the wild, and not for the cage-bird trade. It seems to me that there are a few "domesticated" species that are well- established in captivity, hardy, successful breeders, and also (by and large) from non-endangered parent species. I'm thinking of canaries, budgerigahs (shell parakeets to some), zebra finches, society finches, ringed turtle-doves, ... in fact, the last 2 are so domesticated that we don't even know what species they were derived from! Why can't folks who want pets stick to those, and folks who want a challenge in breeding other, more difficult species work through the agencies above to contriute to the recovery of wild populations? David Mark dmark@cs.buffalo.edu
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (08/01/89)
>> Finally, I'd like to throw one entirely gratuitous flame in >> the direction of the bird owners. Please try to avoid >> buying birds that were taken from the wild. There are many >> species being bred in captivity, so whether you like them >> small or large, quiet or vocal, you have many choices that >> don't diminish dwindling wild populations. I commend the >> efforts of breeders to establish self-sustaining captive >> populations. It's not at all gratuitous. Purchasing a wild-caught *pet* of an endangered species is a stupid thing to do. It takes one more bird out of the gene pool. Building a captive bred population is another matter, but that needs to be carefully coordinated so that the capture and transportation is humane and so the population is mixed enough that the gene pool doesn't stagnate. It's a complex subject, though. Domestic bred birds are more expensive, for one thing. This puts pressure on the wild-caught market to take up the slack. If the wild-caught market were outlawed tomorrow, it wouldn't do much good except encourage the smugglers, which increases the kill ratio during capture and transport and puts the birds through even *more* hell -- and introduces sick birds into the local population. You won't do away with wild-caught birds, you'll just send it underground. Everyone loses, and the predation will tend towards birds that can be easily smuggled for higher prices (military macaws, for one) -- that implies endangered species. A possible answer, in my eyes, is to encourage both improvements in capacity of domestic birds *and* setting things up so that non-endangered birds are available to take up the demand. If Australia would remove the export ban on avians, much of the wild-caught demand could be taken up by Rose-Breasted Cockatoos that are currently being slaughted in the millions each year as pests. We could (somewhat) reduce the cockatoo infestation down there, giving some of those birds a second chance *and* encourage people away from buying endangered species. A program could also be set up at the same time to guarantee the humane treatment of those birds as part of the import/export regulations. >It was generally my opinion >that catching birds from the wild for export was a bad thing. But after >speaking with some owners of quarantine stations, they justify it by saying >that the birds that are now coming in are in such sorry shape due to habitat >destruction and lack of adequate nutrition, that the birds will soon die >in the wild if they are not taken for pets. This is partly rationalization, but it also has a point. If we do nothing, many of these birds will die anyway. If they're endangered, it's better to have them in a captive-bred program than not at all. That doesn't mean importing them for pets, though. The *real* answer here, though, is figuring out how to stop the habitat destruction. Sigh... Chuq Von Rospach =|= Editor,OtherRealms =|= Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com =|= CI$: 73317,635 =|= AppleLink: CHUQ [This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.]
bjb@ncrorl.Orlando.NCR.COM (Barbara Bowen) (08/02/89)
>>In article <3012@nmtsun.nmt.edu>, john@nmtsun.nmt.edu (John Shipman) writes: >>> ... Please try to avoid >>> buying birds that were taken from the wild. ... >In article <1316@intercon.UUCP> ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) writes: >>that the birds that are now coming in are in such sorry shape due to habitat >>destruction and lack of adequate nutrition, that the birds will soon die True - not much vegitation in a parking lot. In article <8915@cs.Buffalo.EDU> you write: >Sorry, Mikki, but this reminds me a lot of the idea that we have to shoot >deer in order to "save" them from starvation ... Have you never heard of relocation programs? Who mentioned shooting??? (Unless, of course, you are referring to the "Great Cockatoo Slaughters" of Australia.) >...and done by appropriate agencies, or at least through them. It is my >opinion that the "agent" doing the captive breeding program should be >a government or UN agency, or the IUCN, or the World Wildlife fund, or ... > >David Mark >dmark@cs.buffalo.edu There are more than enough "Government Agencies" accomplishing less with more tax money than ever before. "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem." If you want a better environment, you have to do something yourself, not wait for some government agency to do your work for you. Those birds listed as endangered species are not allowed into this country as imports. One needs a FEDERAL PERMIT in order to own/transport/whatever existed in this country prior to being declared endangered. (See CITES.) In most states, one also needs a state permit to breed exotics (birds, fish, reptiles, whatever). One must meet habitat, dietary and sanitary require- ments, and is subject to surprise inspections by the State Wildlife and/or animal control. There are also laws PROHIBITING setting these exitics free. If their own country doesn't want them, and no other country can take them in, perhaps extinction is the only recourse? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EMAIL: barbara.bowen@Orlando.NCR.COM (...ncrlnk!ncrorl!bjb) "Bird-brain is a misnomer!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------
ooblick@intercon.uucp (Mikki Barry) (08/02/89)
In article <558@ncrorl.Orlando.NCR.COM>, bjb@ncrorl.Orlando.NCR.COM (Barbara Bowen) writes: > Those birds listed as endangered species are not allowed into this country > as imports. One needs a FEDERAL PERMIT in order to own/transport/whatever > existed in this country prior to being declared endangered. (See CITES.) > In most states, one also needs a state permit to breed exotics (birds, fish, > reptiles, whatever). One must meet habitat, dietary and sanitary require- > ments, and is subject to surprise inspections by the State Wildlife and/or > animal control. There are also laws PROHIBITING setting these exitics > free. If their own country doesn't want them, and no other country can > take them in, perhaps extinction is the only recourse? I just applied for my federal permits. I'll let you know how long it takes. Once the government gets involved with ANYTHING, you might as well wait for years. Oh well. Having just become a breeder over the weekend (proud caretaker of 12 pair of assorted everythings...I'll explain via e-mail for anyone interested), I've been doing a bit of research on the breeding problems of domestic birds. Many species, especially cockatoos make lousy parents if both are domestic. Eggs often have to be incubated rather than letting the parents brood. Other domestics are so bonded to their human companion that they won't even take a mate (apparently, some don't even know they *are* birds). So, how does one make sure to get a LEGAL wild caught bird for breeding? If the government gets involved and has an "agency for breeding exotic birds" or something of that sort, and subcontracts out to established breeders, one would assume that they would issue a set of guidelines for taking care of the breeders and hopefully the chicks the produce. Since no two breeders can probably agree on diet/sanitation/nest boxes/humidity/cage size/cage condition/nesting material/lighting etc. etc., how can any set of guidelines be issued, never mind adhered to? Current quarantine laws are also inadequate. Just because a bird has a quarantine band does not mean it has been imported legally. Many people have been charged with smuggling recently, and they were banding their birds with bands that looked very much like the quarantine bands. It used to be that you could call the USDA with the band number and ask if the bird was legal. Now, apparently, that is very difficult to do. So what can we do to keep a steady supply of domestics for the pet market, while making sure we aren't buying smuggled birds? (domestics for re-release into the wild are much more tricky because of the human interaction necessary to maintain the health of the chick once its born. Those that have to be hand fed bond to humans and if released, fly to the nearest person) Although smuggled birds are often cheaper, they could be carrying psittacosis and/or Newcastles disease. While quarantine only insures that the birds were fed medicated pellets for 30 days (it takes a minimum of 45 to arrest psittacosis) and if the bird has Newcastles it will certainly die during the 30 days (taking the entire stock of the station with it), this does not mean that the bird is healthy. Does anyone have any ideas? Mikki barry --
kdb@intercon.uu.net (Kurt Baumann) (08/03/89)
It also should be pointed out that there are estimated to be roughly 100-200 Hyacinth Macaws in the wild. But I would estimate from pictures and the number of ads in the bird magazines that these birds are well on their way to becoming an establish domestic pet. (I have seen pictures with well over 30 babies) As to Austrailia. The ONLY way to get a bird out of the country is to capture it, but it, or whatever while living there. You apparently must have lived in the country for a couple of years and then then they will allow you to take your pet out of the country. It might be worth going there for a couple of years to pick up a breeding pair of Black Cockatoos or Leadbeaters (Major Mitchells)... :-) But there are no exports of any other kind. A point about smuggled birds. The mortallity rate is more like 80% from what I have heard. In anycase, the real question is what to do about identifying if the bird you are looking at is smuggled or not? There are several other species that are being held in captivity that are not found in the wild anymore. The Spitz Macaw comes to mind here. There MIGHT be two breeding pairs known in the wild. There are roughly 40 birds in captivity, with only perhaps 6 pairs with breeding being attempted. This is a disgrace. That leaves the rest sitting either in a zoo alone or in someones private collection. You might as well shoot them. Birds on the endangered list SHOULD be in breeding programs. I don't care if they are programs for return to the wild or programs for making them pets. They both serve the same purpose of keeping the species around... Grr. PS I think this discussion should be of very important interest to both pet, breeders, and bird watchers. If they no longer exsist they are kinda hard to watch, breed, or have as pets... -- Kurt Baumann InterCon Systems Corporation 46950 Community Plaza Suite 101-132 Sterling, VA 22170 Phone: 703.450.7117