gmr044@leah.Albany.Edu (Gregg Recer) (11/28/89)
O.K., I know I should leave this alone but I couldn't help myself.
There's been a string of good cat/bad cat messages coming through
lately. I really thought the post that originally suggested "trap
'em, shoot 'em, etc." was just being a little sarcastic; maybe so,
maybe not. I certainly don't think shooting your neighbor's cat is a
sound approach. However the idea that cats have some sort of legal
_right_ to roam through anybody's property seems pretty unlikely to
me. Granted there may be no cat leash laws (although I've heard of
movements to create such where I live). I think the issue has just been
ignored as opposed to there being a law guaranteeing free access for
any cat to anyone's property.
Personally, I think letting your domestic animals run loose in other
people's yards is irresponsible and rude, even if it isn't illegal.
There's nothing natural about semi-feral animals being let out of
someone's back door to go kill off the local wild bird or rodent
population. This is no less irresponsible than dumping a tankfull of
guppies into the local trout stream, IMHO.
This argument that cats do some kind of service by killing rodents is
pretty flimsy. Are there a lot of tabbies out there killing hordes of
lice-infected sewer rats and thereby saving us all from the plague?
(As an aside: the way to solve such a problem would be to provide lots
of barn owl nest boxes; these guys really love rats!!) The only
rodent-killing action I've seen is several chipmunks which were killed
right under our bird feeders by a neighbor's cat. I'd actually be
quite intrigued if an occasional chipmunk or squirrel was taken by a
red-tailed hawk in our backyard (not terribly likely) but knowing that
the cat that is killing these chipmunks will go home later and have
all the cat chow and milk it wants is rather annoying.
I know some people enjoy the independent nature of cats; personally I
like the more dependent (maybe it's dumb 8^] ) nature of dogs.
Regardless of how independent they are, to me, letting cats, or any
domestic pet, roam the neighborhood shows a lack of respect both for
the neighbors and for the local environment.
Gregg
*******************************************************************************
"In future you should delete the words crunchy frog and
replace them with the legend crunchy raw unboned real
dead frog!!"
-- Inspector Bradshaw, The Hygiene Division
*******************************************************************************denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (11/28/89)
In article <2196@leah.Albany.Edu> gmr044@leah.Albany.Edu (Gregg Recer) writes: > >O.K., I know I should leave this alone but I couldn't help myself. Me too. > >Personally, I think letting your domestic animals run loose in other >people's yards is irresponsible and rude, even if it isn't illegal. >There's nothing natural about semi-feral animals being let out of Semi-feral? My cat is domestic, all the way. Give me a good suggestion about how I can let him out and keep him in my yard. The nature of a cat is different than a dog, as you mention later. To keep him in the garage or house all day when no one is home is cruel. A dog might like it fine, but not a cat. This is obviously a sensitive area with you, what with all the exaggerated examples you present. >This argument that cats do some kind of service by killing rodents is >pretty flimsy. Are there a lot of tabbies out there killing hordes of >lice-infected sewer rats and thereby saving us all from the plague? I think you should educate yourself a little more about cats prior to spouting off about them. They were revered by the egyptians and are beautiful in their movements and always seem to be smiling. Read up on them and maybe you'll realize there is a place for ever Read about them; there is a place for everything - even cats belong. >(As an aside: the way to solve such a problem would be to provide lots >of barn owl nest boxes; these guys really love rats!!) The only Yes, this really sounds like a reasonable suggestion. >I know some people enjoy the independent nature of cats; personally I >like the more dependent (maybe it's dumb 8^] ) nature of dogs. >Regardless of how independent they are, to me, letting cats, or any >domestic pet, roam the neighborhood shows a lack of respect both for >the neighbors and for the local environment. Again, how can I keep my cat outside but in my yard? It is easy to complain but not real constructive. Give me reasonable suggestions. Denise Caire denise@dadla.WR.TEK>COM
terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) (11/28/89)
In article <823@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM> denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: >Give me a good >suggestion about how I can let him out and keep him in my yard. >The nature of a cat is different than a dog, as you mention later. >To keep him in the garage or house all day when no one is home is >cruel. A dog might like it fine, but not a cat. Cruel? Why is it cruel? I have a very nice 2 year old female Persian cat that has been outside on the ground for a total of about 15 minutes. Even during that time we were watching her to make sure she did not run away or get into trouble. The cat loves watching things that go on outdoors and she loves to play with the unfortuante insects that get into our house, but she has never tried to bolt through the door when we open it. Even when it is nice outside, the only reason she will even try to get out is to play with the leaves on our back patio. She loves to play with my wife and I and our two dogs. She is happy, playful, healthy and will never get run over by a car!!!! Cats do not have to be outside to be happy. -- Terry Hull Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Kansas State University Work: terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!terry Play: terry@tah386.manhattan.ks.us, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!tah386!terry
sandra@pyrtech (Sandra Macika) (11/28/89)
Sorry, I didn't feel that this subject was specifically related to OUTDOOR or INDOOR, so I left the Subject Line the same as it previously was. I figured that was best for the people who already had this subject in their KILL file. I saw a case on People's Court some time ago that related to this topic. It must have been last spring when I was in the hospital. The show is based on California Law. A woman was sueing her neighbor because the neighbor's cat had come into her home and killed her bird. It was a warm day and she had her door open and the bird was free in the house. The judge ruled in favor of the neighbor with the cat because cats do things like this by nature, and the woman with the bird should have protected the bird. I think there was also something to the effect that the neighbor with the cat wasn't negligent, and did not have malicious intent, so she would not have to pay for her cat's deed. There was no discussion about how to protect the bird or take care of the cat to prevent it from harming other animals. Also, there was no discussion on whether or not it would be legal to kill the cat. Thanks, Sandra
plb@cbnewsi.ATT.COM (peter.l.berghold) (11/29/89)
From article <2196@leah.Albany.Edu>, by gmr044@leah.Albany.Edu (Gregg Recer): > quite intrigued if an occasional chipmunk or squirrel was taken by a > red-tailed hawk in our backyard (not terribly likely) but knowing that > the cat that is killing these chipmunks will go home later and have > all the cat chow and milk it wants is rather annoying. > Actually, red-tailed hawks, owls, and other birds of prey have quite a field day with such critters. You might not see it in you own back yard as they (hawks) tend to keep away from humans... Pete
mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) (11/29/89)
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: >Again, how can I keep my cat outside but in my yard? It is easy to >complain but not real constructive. Give me reasonable suggestions. Here is one, reasonable and cheap. A friend of mine has a cat. She has an outdoor run in her yard. It consists of a cord up high stretched from the house to a tree on the other side of the yard, with a leash extending down. With this contraption, the cat can freely roam her pet human's property, but not outside it. She gets to play outside, but does not bother the neighbors. This is a really happy and loved cat. She does not have to worry about getting run over by cars, or get a disease from ferals, or get in a fight, or be abused or shot by nasty humans, or cause a population explosion. Birds and other animals can get outside her territory and be safe from her. If you wanted to make one, it shouldn't take much more than $5 for some clothes line and some leash hooks. Or you could buy one for X-mas for your cat. Personally, I don't really see how implementations of keeping cats in their own yards is really a bird topic anymore. I don't know how to do a Followup thingee in the header, but I would encourage further discussion in this vein to go over to rec.pets where some people with cat experience can help you better. This group is good for identifying birds, deciding on the best binocs for bird watching, and by gratious extension, discussions on pet birds, but not for cats. Pretty please with catnip on it? :-) -Mary Blake's Birds are really not experts on cats, Blakey being the only member to actually meet one. However, we are convinced that not only the welfare of the birds and other critters a cat may kill should be considered, but also the welfare of the cat involved. My ex-step-father had cats he let run loose (not exactly approved by us). He had a large graveyard of his cats that had died from car accidents, being abused by humans, badly injured in fights, etc. It is the considered opinion of Blake's Birds that allowing a cat to roam freely IS NOT FAIR TO THE CAT!!! Putting a cat to sleep that has been badly mangled isn't exactly our idea of fun!!!
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (11/29/89)
In article <884@eecea.eece.ksu.edu> terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) writes: >In article <823@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM> denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > >>Give me a good >>suggestion about how I can let him out and keep him in my yard. And still none can give me a good suggestion for this! >>The nature of a cat is different than a dog, as you mention later. >>To keep him in the garage or house all day when no one is home is >>cruel. A dog might like it fine, but not a cat. > >Cruel? Why is it cruel? I have a very nice 2 year old female Persian ^^^^^^^ Gee, I'm impressed, a thourough bred. My alley cat likes it outside where nature intended him to be, not cooped up in a house all day. As previously stated, I don't like the litter box in the house, nor do I like idea of claws being sharpened on Lord only knows what? >cat that has been outside on the ground for a total of about 15 >minutes. Even during that time we were watching her to make sure she >did not run away or get into trouble. The cat loves watching things Are you home all day with her to watch her all the time? I'm not. >that go on outdoors and she loves to play with the unfortuante insects >that get into our house, but she has never tried to bolt through the >door when we open it. Even when it is nice outside, the only reason Why is that? She definately sounds retarded or drugged. >she will even try to get out is to play with the leaves on our back >patio. She loves to play with my wife and I and our two dogs. She is Are the dogs outside? >happy, playful, healthy and will never get run over by a car!!!! > >Cats do not have to be outside to be happy. This started out to be a discussion about shooting cats around a bird feeder. So, let the cars kill off a few. By nature, cats are outside animals. Now if you want your's to act and live in an unnatural style, that's your choice. Mine goes out. Denise Caire denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM
saulnier@acadia.crd.ge.com (Emilie T. Saulnier) (11/29/89)
In article <2196@leah.Albany.Edu> gmr044@leah.Albany.Edu (Gregg Recer) writes: > >Personally, I think letting your domestic animals run loose in other >people's yards is irresponsible and rude, even if it isn't illegal. Is it still *irresponsible and rude* if those other people also have cats that they let out? What if the cats aren't hunters? What about domestic animals that don't kill birds and rodents (lets say geese, since I often see them roaming around here)? What if the neighbors don't care about their personal menagerie of wild birds and rodents or nature in general? If you are talking about the general population of birds and rodents, is letting a cat run loose on your own property any more responsible (after all there will be birds and rodents there too)? In fact, is developing a piece of land for an apartment complex any less harmful to the local population of birds and rodents? What about the birds and rodents that are killed by automobiles? Is it irresponsible and rude to drive a car, on the grounds that it might kill a wild animal? (All right, I'm getting carried away here :-)) >There's nothing natural about semi-feral animals being let out of >someone's back door to go kill off the local wild bird or rodent >population. This is no less irresponsible than dumping a tankfull of >guppies into the local trout stream, IMHO. Does this mean guppies kill off trout? >This argument that cats do some kind of service by killing rodents is >pretty flimsy. Are there a lot of tabbies out there killing hordes of >lice-infected sewer rats and thereby saving us all from the plague? What if they're killing off deer-tick-infested mice? >rodent-killing action I've seen is several chipmunks which were killed >right under our bird feeders by a neighbor's cat. I'd actually be Is it less irresponsible to put bait out to attract birds and rodents to a dangerous place? Would the cat get less chipmunks if they weren't so conveniently preoccupied, and always at the same place? Or if they weren't so tame from human contact? >I know some people enjoy the independent nature of cats; personally I >like the more dependent (maybe it's dumb 8^] ) nature of dogs. ^^^^ Don't you mean fish? :-) Emilie
pab@lucid.com (Peter Benson) (11/29/89)
Well this discussion is way off birds, but my experience is a bit a of twist. My cat was most likely eaten by a redtail. It was in a pretty remote place, and I don't think it's very likely to happen anywhere very suburban. I missed the cat when she disappeared, but I felt it was a much better way to go than getting run over by a car. She was probably encroaching on the turf of the redtails. Though the hawks didn't do near as good a job at keeping the squirrels out of my food. (Near this time I had a redtail drop the claws and tail of an eaten sharp shinned(?) hawk on the hood of my car. I took it as an omen that the cat was really gone.) On a different note: I see a lot of turkey vultures, and hawks (redtails mostly, but some coopers hawks(?)) around where I live and work (mostly suburban Palo Alto and Menlo Park, CA). Where do they eat? I see vultures all the time. The suburban area can't be a very good place to see carrion. I have seen some coopers hawks(?) going after pigeons. Are they mostly just straying into the 'burbs from the bay or the hills, or do they find anything to eat there? Do we have any other reports of raptor and vulture (are vultures considered raptors too?) behavior in the 'burbs. (please change the subject line if you follow up) -ptr- pab@lucid.com
michele@dgbt.uucp (Michele Guillet DGBT/DIP) (11/30/89)
In article <2196@leah.Albany.Edu>, gmr044@leah.Albany.Edu (Gregg Recer) writes: > > sound approach. However the idea that cats have some sort of legal > _right_ to roam through anybody's property seems pretty unlikely to > me. Granted there may be no cat leash laws (although I've heard of > movements to create such where I live). I think the issue has just been > ignored as opposed to there being a law guaranteeing free access for > any cat to anyone's property. > I would like to mention that the city I live in has recently pass a cat by-law making it illegal for cats to roam free, the cats identified are brought back to the owner on the first offense, and after that there is a fine and possibly the cat is sent to the Humane Society. The by-law has created a lot of arguments so far. Although I don't have cats, I like them, and would have one if it weren't for allergies. The cats I had were house cats and I don't think they were unhappy or show any ill effects from being in-door cats. -- INTERNET: michele@dgbt.crc.dnd.ca 3701 Carling Avenue Ottawa, Ontario CANADA OR: michele%dgbt@ncs.dnd.ca PO BOX 11490 sta "H" Ottawa UUCP: ...utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!dgbt!michele (maybe michele@crcmar in uucp maps)
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (11/30/89)
In article <92681@pyramid.pyramid.com>, sandra@pyrtech (Sandra Macika) writes: > > Sorry, I didn't feel that this subject was specifically related to OUTDOOR > or INDOOR, so I left the Subject Line the same as it previously was. I > figured that was best for the people who already had this subject in their > KILL file. What's this OUTDOOR and INDOOR stuff? > The judge ruled in favor of the neighbor with the cat because cats do things > like this by nature, and the woman with the bird should have protected the > bird. Sure, and it's the owners nature to be irresponsible. I would have appealed. What a lousy excuse for a decision. Some dogs kill chickens by nature and farmers shoot them LEGALLY (not all states). If I had a license to own a falcon and it killed some chickens (which falcons will do) I would be held responsible. > I think there was also something to the effect that the neighbor with the > cat wasn't negligent, and did not have malicious intent, so she would not > have to pay for her cat's deed. Maybe it's time to get some laws passed requiring restraining cats and forcing responsibility of owners. Maybe then we won't also see so many "FREE KITTENS" signs if people are required to register their cats. --
canada@crash.cts.com (Diane Barlow Close) (11/30/89)
>In article <823@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM> denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > >Give me a good >suggestion about how I can let him out and keep him in my yard. > ... My alley cat likes it outside where nature intended him to be, > not cooped up in a house all day. As previously stated, I don't like > the litter box in the house, nor do I like idea of claws being sharpened > on Lord only knows what? The trouble is, you are just plain lazy. It is much easier to let a cat ``roam free'' instead of put a bit of effort into training him/her to do otherwise. Both of my humane society-obtained ALLEY cats are indoor cats now. I used positive reinforcement to encourage them to prefer the indoors. I provide lots of toys, three cat climbing poles, and two window seats (one has a view of a bird feeder a few feet away). I trained the cats to sharpen their claws ONLY on THEIR furniture (ie. the cat poles), and I use a booda box so that I (or my guests) can't see or smell cat ``business'' in the house. (A friend solved this problem by putting in a cat door leading into her garage and placing the cat box in the garage.) Finally, I was able to teach them to sit and stay when an open door is present. The cats are active, healthy, fit, DEFINITELY not fat (they actively wrestle and run up and down stairs and cat poles during ``active'' times of the day). I have beautiful furniture (I have no kids :-) with NO cat marks on them. I have beautiful rugs with no cat marks on them either. The cats are happy and so am I. They don't miss the outdoors. In fact, when I had a pet sitter look after them over a weekend, she didn't read the instructions I left her (and didn't listen, either! She won't be hired back!) and she tried to put the cats out on one of the days (she was one of those ``cats must roam free'' people too). The cats cried and cried to get back indoors, and started throwing themselves at the front door until she let them back in. (Don't forget, both of these cats lead outdoor lives before coming to me.) So, I say it again: you are just plain lazy. You don't want to spend the effort to show your cat an alternative lifestyle. Much the same as people who don't want to teach their dogs obedience, but believe the should be kept in the ``natural, doggy state'', or like people who don't neuter 'cause ``it's not natural''. It is your choice (it is a free country after all), but if I catch your cat in my yard, it will be trapped and taken to the humane society FOR SURE! I've had enough ``natural'' kitties peeing on my doors and pooping in my garden, and eating the other welcome WILD visitors to my yard. Of course, I'll only catch your cat if the bobcat who lives in the canyon doesn't catch it first (6 cat lunches and 3 doggie dinners so far this fall and counting...). >By nature, cats are outside animals. Now if you want your's to act >and live in an unnatural style, that's your choice. Mine goes out. By nature humans should live in caves... -- Diane Barlow Close {nosc, ucsd}!crash!canada canada@crash.cts.com Free Canada -- Trade Mulroney
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (11/30/89)
In article <1041@dinorah.wustl.edu> mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) writes: >She >has an outdoor run in her yard. It consists of a cord up high >stretched from the house to a tree on the other side of the yard, with >a leash extending down. With this contraption, the cat can freely >roam her pet human's property, but not outside it. She gets to play My first response to this is, is the cat declawed? How does she keep it from climbing the tree and getting all tangled up (such as strangled)? >This is a really happy >and loved cat. Perhaps. (Purely conjecture.) >She does not have to worry about getting run over by ^^^ ?the cat? ?the owner? >cars, or get a disease from ferals, or get in a fight, or be abused or >shot by nasty humans, or cause a population explosion. My cat stays pretty much around my house because it is lower in the pecking order than some of the neighbor cats. It is neutered. I doubt if my cat has the same fears as your friend or her cat. Also, my cat is 2 years old and although I've seen him look at birds, I've never seen him go after one or found evidence in my yard that he has ever caught one (such as bird feathers, carcasses,...). >other animals can get outside her territory and be safe from her. If >you wanted to make one, it shouldn't take much more than $5 for some >clothes line and some leash hooks. Or you could buy one for X-mas for >your cat. Boy will he be thrilled. The first cat on the block with a tether. > >Personally, I don't really see how implementations of keeping cats in But you really got your 2 cents worth in. >Pretty please with catnip on it? :-) Okay. But remember, someone talking about shooting cats to keep them away from a bird feeder started the discussion. I have had enough and I will no longer respond. My cat will remain outside where he likes it when the weather permits. Bells are worthless and taking the chance of strangling the cat by tethering it is an incredulous suggestion. No hard feelings :-). Denise Caire denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM >Blake's Birds are really not experts on cats, Blakey being the only I'm glad you made that statement before the next! >It is the >considered opinion of Blake's Birds that allowing a cat to roam freely >IS NOT FAIR TO THE CAT!!! And it is my opinion that Blake's Birds should "stuff" a sock in it! >Putting a cat to sleep that has been badly >mangled isn't exactly our idea of fun!!! My idea of fun is putting a mangled Blake's Bird to sleep. What a hoot!!! (Sheesh. It's just a joke, okay :-)
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (11/30/89)
In article <835@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > In article <884@eecea.eece.ksu.edu> terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) writes: > >In article <823@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM> denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > > > >>Give me a good > >>suggestion about how I can let him out and keep him in my yard. > > And still none can give me a good suggestion for this! My neighbor has two (thorough bred - na na na na na) cats that she has on LEASHES and they play around her porch. > >>The nature of a cat is different than a dog, as you mention later. > >>To keep him in the garage or house all day when no one is home is > >>cruel. A dog might like it fine, but not a cat. You've been reading too many Garfield cartoons. I've met many people who have "indoor cats" that are beautiful, happy and their owners have no problems with them (and they don't get either nor help to fill up the animal shelter gas chamber with more kittens). > >Cruel? Why is it cruel? I have a very nice 2 year old female Persian > ^^^^^^^ > Gee, I'm impressed, a thourough bred. I don't think anyone was trying to impress you. > My alley cat likes it outside > where nature intended him to be, not cooped up in a house all day. Funny I don't remember seeing a Mutual Of Omaha's Wild Kingdom show about the dreaded and feared Alley Cat and it's natural habitat. > As previously stated, I don't like the litter box in the house, nor > do I like idea of claws being sharpened on Lord only knows what? You mean "Lord only knows what" type of things like MY cars tires or the paint on it's roof/hood? > >cat that has been outside on the ground for a total of about 15 > >minutes. Even during that time we were watching her to make sure she > >did not run away or get into trouble. The cat loves watching things > > Are you home all day with her to watch her all the time? I'm not. Fine, so let someone else deal with your cats destructiveness, right? If you can't trust your pet in your house alone when you are not there than perhaps you shouldn't have it maybe? > >that go on outdoors and she loves to play with the unfortuante insects > >that get into our house, but she has never tried to bolt through the > >door when we open it. Even when it is nice outside, the only reason > > Why is that? She definately sounds retarded or drugged. Not at all, it sounds like a cat that has learned respect through training and discipline. I wonder how you'd feel if you came into your driveway at night and there were 3 or 4 dogs in a pack in your driveway? Would you be a little frightened maybe since you don't know if the dogs are going to attack or not? After all they are only doing what NATURE intended them to do and by your "logic" their owners are not irresponsible (even if they ARE subject to fines? I know cats aren't covered by a similar law but perhaps that can be changed). > >happy, playful, healthy and will never get run over by a car!!!! > > > >Cats do not have to be outside to be happy. > > This started out to be a discussion about shooting cats around a > bird feeder. So, let the cars kill off a few. Is that right. Maybe you wouldn't sound so secure in your words if it was your cat that you found pizza-ed in the street. Or maybe you'll hit someone elses cat and have a "great" evening afterwards? Or how about the "pets" that are roming the streets and run out in front of cars causing the drivers to swerve and hit trees possibly killing themselves or others? > By nature, cats are outside animals. Now if you want your's to act > and live in an unnatural style, that's your choice. Mine goes out. And hopefully it will get lost and adopted by someone who cares. --
burkett@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Edward W Burkett) (11/30/89)
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM writes: >I have had enough and I will no longer respond. My cat will remain outside >where he likes it when the weather permits. > >Denise Caire >denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM Thank goodness ... I don't have to Read, Kill or in anyway Deal with your opinion of what a CAT should be or do. I agree with ALF ... have a cat for breakfast ... lunch ... dinner! Obviously ALF's obsessed with cats too! Hmmmmmm? CAN WE TALK ABOUT BIRDS FOR AWHILE? Thank-you.
charlesv@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Charles van Duren) (11/30/89)
In article <2196@leah.Albany.Edu> gmr044@leah.Albany.Edu (Gregg Recer) writes: > >Personally, I think letting your domestic animals run loose in other >people's yards is irresponsible and rude, even if it isn't illegal. > >There's nothing natural about semi-feral animals being let out of >someone's back door to go kill off the local wild bird or rodent >population. > [...stuff deleted...] > >This argument that cats do some kind of service by killing rodents is >pretty flimsy. Are there a lot of tabbies out there killing hordes of >lice-infected sewer rats and thereby saving us all from the plague? > (1) Domestic and domesticated are not the same thing. Cats are domesticated; that is, they feel at ease in our homes, and are to some extent tamed. They are not by nature domestic, that is house animals. (2) Domestic cats are but one of the many predators. You may not see them, or be aware of them. I am. We have wolves , coyotes, foxes. We have almost every imaginable kind of raptor. This is not to mention the carnage on the roads. (3) Birds and rodents are not defenseless, and exist in LARGE numbers. Our young cat caught one robin last spring, most likely because the birds around our place were not used to cats. She never got near another one. The swallows and robins ran a watch system. Anyone spotting the cat set off the alarm, and the rest, robins and swallows, attacked the cat, swooping and screaming. Needless to say, she didn't show herself too much. (4) We had a bad problem with mice last year, as did our neighbours. Rodents are responsible for eating/destroying something like 25% of the world's food supplies. Birds do a fair bit of damage. Have you ever seen flocks of blackbirds landing in a ripe grain field? Farmers just love them, as you can imagine. This year, not a single mouse-damaged root vegetable. The same for the neighbours. If you have a shortage of birds (or rodents :-)), it may be that the problem is the result of the spread of human habitat, pavement, concrete, etc. Take your attitude about cats out of the city, and you would be advocating the eradication of magpies and coyotes. May plagues of rodents overrun your house. Charles van Duren (speaking for Little Cat and Arthur)
mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) (12/01/89)
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: >In article <1041@dinorah.wustl.edu> mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) writes: >>She >>has an outdoor run in her yard. It consists of a cord up high >>stretched from the house to a tree on the other side of the yard, with >>a leash extending down. With this contraption, the cat can freely >>roam her pet human's property, but not outside it. She gets to play >My first response to this is, is the cat declawed? How does she keep >it from climbing the tree and getting all tangled up (such as >strangled)? I don't know. I have never seen her climb up a tree. Of course, she is supervised when she is out to keep her out of mischief. >>This is a really happy >>and loved cat. >Perhaps. (Purely conjecture.) Having seen her play on the floor with her humans and play with leaves and bugs outside, I am pretty sure she is happy. >>She does not have to worry about getting run over by > ^^^ ?the cat? ?the owner? The CAT! Humans usually don't have to worry about getting in a fight with other cats. >Boy will he be thrilled. The first cat on the block with a tether. The thrill will be more one of safety, than of prestige. >Okay. But remember, someone talking about shooting cats to keep them >away from a bird feeder started the discussion. I have had enough and >I will no longer respond. My cat will remain outside where he likes it >when the weather permits. Bells are worthless and taking the chance >of strangling the cat by tethering it is an incredulous suggestion. I meant take the discussion of ways to keep your pet in your yard is a better topic for rec.pets, not the discussion as a whole. If tethering a cat would risk strangling him or her (which I would NOT want) then the people in rec.pets would know better ways than that. It was the only way I have seen or heard of to safely keep your cat in your yard, which as I recall, was what you were asking. >>Putting a cat to sleep that has been badly >>mangled isn't exactly our idea of fun!!! >My idea of fun is putting a mangled Blake's Bird to sleep. >What a hoot!!! (Sheesh. It's just a joke, okay :-) You have a very sick, disgusting, cruel and insulting sense of humor. The cat in question belonged to my ex-stepfather. I had known him, and loved him since birth. I had played with him when he was a kitten. I had seen him eat his first solid food. His owner let his cats roam the neighborhood. One day the cat came back and hid under the bed. My ex-step-father pulled him out from under it to discover he was badly hurt. The cat had to be put to sleep. To wish such a horrible fate on someone else's pet, even as a joke, is just plain cruel. No, it is not okay. It is inexcusable. I believe you owe five birds, myself, and the net a big apology. Smileys don't count. -Mary ????: "Natural leaders are rarely encumbered with intelligence. Greed, egotism, animal cunning, and viciousness are the important attributes -- qualities I detect in you in admirably full measure." Avon: "I didn't come here to be flattered." BLAKE'S 7: "Orbit"
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (12/01/89)
In article <853@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > In article <1041@dinorah.wustl.edu> mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) writes: > >This is a really happy and loved cat. > > Perhaps. (Purely conjecture.) Sounds pretty hypocritical coming from someone who's "so sure" their cat is "unhappy" indoors. --
usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) (12/01/89)
Yo assholes! Now that I have your attention by using an obscenity, get this discussion out of rec.birds and into rec.pets where it belongs! j |%|John Lawitzke, Dale Computer Corp., R&D |%|UUCP: uunet!frith!dale1!jhl Work |%| uunet!frith!ipecac!jhl Home Inquiring minds just wondering. |%|Internet: jhl@frith.egr.msu.edu
rdouglas@hpcuhb.HP.COM (Robert Douglas) (12/01/89)
> >And it is my opinion that Blake's Birds should "stuff" a sock in it! > It's my opinion that Denise should stuff a sock in it!!!! >>Putting a cat to sleep that has been badly >>mangled isn't exactly our idea of fun!!! > >My idea of fun is putting a mangled Blake's Bird to sleep. >What a hoot!!! (Sheesh. It's just a joke, okay :-) >---------- You evidentally don't give a damn about other living creatures. Why don't you get off your high horse and admit you're just too lazy to take complete responsibility for your pet cat. R. Douglas
jms@turing.newcastle.ac.uk (J.M. Spencer) (12/01/89)
In article <9753@cloud9.Stratus.COM> Mike Mahler writes: >In article <853@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: >> In article <1041@dinorah.wustl.edu> mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) writes: > >>This is a really happy and loved cat. > > > >Perhaps. (Purely conjecture.) > Sounds pretty hypocritical coming from someone who's "so sure" > their cat is "unhappy" indoors. This is rec.birds. Take your bickering to rec.pets or, better, to alt.flame. Thank you.
anna@romeo.cs.duke.edu (Anna P. Drozdowski) (12/01/89)
See above. Sick of cats. Have put up with house birds but sick of both.
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (12/02/89)
In article <5609@cps3xx.UUCP>, usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) writes: > Yo assholes! Clever. What a premier example of social interaction. > Now that I have your attention by using an obscenity, get this > discussion out of rec.birds and into rec.pets where it belongs! Who the hell (oooooh, an obscenity) cares WHERE this discussion takes place? You self-appointed "net monitors" are really a laugh. Who are you to demand that "we" don't discuss a topic in a particular news group? You don't like it don't read it but your posting whining about it makes you just as "wrong" and a hypocrit. --
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (12/05/89)
In article <9723@cloud9.Stratus.COM> mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) writes: >In article <92681@pyramid.pyramid.com>, sandra@pyrtech (Sandra Macika) writes: >> The judge ruled in favor of the neighbor with the cat because cats do things >> like this by nature, and the woman with the bird should have protected the >> bird. > > Sure, and it's the owners nature to be irresponsible. > I would have appealed. What a lousy excuse for a decision. > Some dogs kill chickens by nature and farmers shoot them LEGALLY > (not all states). If I had a license to own a falcon and it > killed some chickens (which falcons will do) I would be held > responsible. Stop trying to compare cats to dogs or birds. That is part of the problem. > >> I think there was also something to the effect that the neighbor with the >> cat wasn't negligent, and did not have malicious intent, so she would not >> have to pay for her cat's deed. > > Maybe it's time to get some laws passed requiring > restraining cats and forcing responsibility of owners. Maybe > then we won't also see so many "FREE KITTENS" signs if people > are required to register their cats. -- Why would registering cats reduce the reproduction rate of cats? Neutering is the answer. (Maybe that wasn't the complaint?) Again, all you we-hate-cats people you can do is complain instead of making responsive and reasonable suggestions towards a workable solution. Surely there must be a couple intelligent people who read this net who could research this topic (controlling cats) and make suggestions as to what will work. Just think, you could make a million bucks with an answer to this one! Cats are good! Denise Caire denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM
burkett@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Edward W Burkett) (12/05/89)
In article <919@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM> denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes and writes and writes and writes .......
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Denise,
You obviously have a serious problem ..... Why are you sharing it with us?
Edmm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (12/06/89)
In article <919@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM!, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: ! In article <9723@cloud9.Stratus.COM! mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) writes: ! Stop trying to compare cats to dogs or birds. That is part of the ! problem. Show me where I compare a cat to a dog or a bird. What I AM comparing is the similarity of the irresponsibility of the owner in each hypothetical situation. You want I should use exact comparisons? Ok. If I owned a lion (big cat) and it killed someone, I'd be held responsible. ! !! I think there was also something to the effect that the neighbor with the ! !! cat wasn't negligent, and did not have malicious intent, so she would not ! !! have to pay for her cat's deed. ! ! ! ! Maybe it's time to get some laws passed requiring ! ! restraining cats and forcing responsibility of owners. Maybe ! ! then we won't also see so many "FREE KITTENS" signs if people ! ! are required to register their cats. -- ! ! Why would registering cats reduce the reproduction rate of cats? ! Neutering is the answer. (Maybe that wasn't the complaint?) It's a side-effect. When I find a tag on the cat that has YOUR name or registration number on it, I can report it when it's scratching the paint on my car and have YOU pay for the damage. ! Again, all you we-hate-cats people you can do is complain instead ! of making responsive and reasonable suggestions towards a workable ! solution. I never said I hated cats. Obviously you're paranoid enough to label anyone that disagrees with you as a "cat-hater". ! Cats are good! Responsible owners are better. --
mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) (12/06/89)
Denise Caire writes: >Again, all you we-hate-cats people First off, I, among others in this group, do not hate cats. I love them. However this is hardly the group in which to expect cat fan clubs. >you can do is complain instead >of making responsive and reasonable suggestions towards a workable >solution. And when we try to we get sick jokes hurled at us. Or at least I do. The rest are probably too smart to bother even trying. >Surely there must be a couple intelligent people You wouldn't be insinuating that people who love birds and don't like cats mauling them aren't intelligent, would you? >who read >this net who could research this topic (controlling cats) and make >suggestions as to what will work. Just think, you could make a million >bucks with an answer to this one! Like I suggested before, this is rec.birds. The people here are concerned about keeping cats OUT of THEIR yards. Experts on methods to safely keep YOUR cat IN YOUR yard are to be found in abundance in rec.pets . Why don't you ask some of them? Or don't you really want to know? >Cats are good! As are birds. Still waiting for that apology. -Mary If this discussion MUST continue in this vein, maybe it should mosey on over to alt.flame and do the rec.bird crowd a BIG favor. Just an idea.
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (12/06/89)
In article <5609@cps3xx.UUCP> JOHN FRITH writes: >Yo assholes! (A way of greeting your friends?) >Now that I have your attention by using an obscenity, get this >discussion out of rec.birds and into rec.pets where it belongs! Touchy, touchy. You all started it here, and here it will stay. As I have already responded to another intolerant-of-any-one-else's opinion bird-person, I will return armed with facts instead of dirty words. Denise Caire denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (12/06/89)
In article <1345@uwm.edu> burkett@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Edward W Burkett) writes: >In article <919@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM> denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes and writes and writes and writes ....... > > >You obviously have a serious problem ..... Why are you sharing it with us? > >Ed My problem is people who start a discussion, say to shoot cats, and then want the discussion to stop or take it else where. I have a suggetion for you, if you anjoy living in an uneducated prejudiced fashion, THEN DON'T READ THE ARTICLE. Besides, Ed, you seem like such a nice sort of a guy to share with! Love ya, Denise ;-)