rising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) (11/23/89)
I like cats and birds too, and rodents, for that matter. The problem with house cats "doing their thing with the birds at your feeder" is that they don play by the "rules" of wild predators. When they strike out with the wildlife, they come inside for a can of Whiskers. So they continue to knock off the odd bird, mouse, salamander, snake, lizard, etc., but are not in any limited by what they can catch. Among other things, this means that they can occur in far higher density than would naturally occur--and can cause serious damage to the urban wildlife. We keep our cat inside (where he gets the odd mouse and occasionally one of our caged birds), but if he were to go out, I'd sure as h*ll bell him. Note that the cats have very little success with the urban regulars--adult House Sparrows, pigeons, and starlings--but really rake up during migration (getting a variety of warbler and wrens, esp.). --Jim Rising -- Name: Jim Rising Mail: Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1A1 UUCP: uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising BITNET: rising@utzoo.utoronto.bitnet
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (11/28/89)
In article <1989Nov23.141826.24882@utzoo.uucp> rising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) writes: >I like cats and birds too, and rodents, for that matter. The problem >with house cats "doing their thing with the birds at your feeder" is >that they don play by the "rules" of wild predators. I have seen cats at my grandmother's house bothering the birds at the feeder. She finally put it on a pole and the cats couldn't climb it. If your concerned that cats are depopulating the birds of our world, then you are wrong. You must be aware of the real villian; the greed of mankind. And no, I will not get into it, what with pesticides, fertilizer, and toxic waste, it's too big to take on. > When they strike >out with the wildlife, they come inside for a can of Whiskers. So they >continue to knock off the odd bird, mouse, salamander, snake, lizard, >etc., but are not in any limited by what they can catch. Among other >things, this means that they can occur in far higher density than would >naturally occur--and can cause serious damage to the urban wildlife. Oops. We are getting off track. I thought this exchange was about how to rein in the cat instead of shooting it. Many animals now occur There are many books detailing what man has done to the balance of nature. The poor cat is not to blame for the imbalance. >one of our caged birds), but if he were to go out, I'd sure as h*ll >bell him. > I live in a mild enough climate to leave the cat out most of the time. I keep him in when it is cold and wet or when he wants in. I do not keep a litter box in the house as I don't care to smell it. As far as a bell, that does not stop cats from killing birds and the birds don't hear it to "flee" just in the nick of time. >Note that the cats have very little success with the urban regulars--adult >House Sparrows, pigeons, and starlings--but really rake up during migration >(getting a variety of warbler and wrens, esp.). > Are you sure about this? Maybe in your area, but here, the migrating birds aren't found resting in housing developments. You know, maybe we should define the environment and vicinities that we are discussing. Denise Caire denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM
scott@mccall.uucp (11/28/89)
In article <822@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > I live in a mild enough climate to leave the cat out most of the time. > I keep him in when it is cold and wet or when he wants in. I do not > keep a litter box in the house as I don't care to smell it. > > Denise Caire > If I every have to live in your neighborhood or you in mine, you may find a package of your cat's deposit somewhere on your property. I hate stepping in shit, and just because you can't stand the smell doesn't mean I want to. Now to the subject at hand. I have indoor birds and like to feed the outdoor ones too. I enjoy them both. I also like cats but not when they're not under control(supervision). I got a cat that visits my yard frequently. I've tried to shoe it away only to have it return. I would talk to the owner but I don't know who it is(if any). My next trick will be a bucket of cold water(and winter is coming soon) on the cat. If that doesn't keep him away then a kerosine wire brush on it's butt might give him an idea. A cat that is fed at a home needs no birds for a meal. I would shoot the cat but that's not allowed in city limits. For those of you that want to argue against that, then why should the cat be able to kill the birds? Or why not fine the owners of the cat for cruelty towards birds? -- Scott Davis (800)255-2762, in Kansas (913)776-4041 The McCall Pattern Company, 615 McCall Rd., Manhattan, KS 66502, USA UUCP: rutgers!ksuvax1!mccall!scott Internet: scott%mccall@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (11/28/89)
In article <822@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > In article <1989Nov23.141826.24882@utzoo.uucp> rising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) writes: > If your concerned that cats are depopulating the birds of > our world, then you are wrong. Actually, you might be the one in the "wrong". There was a recent study in London where the people running the study asked cat owners to save the animals that their cats brought home. Some people were real proud of their cat's catch saving multiple kills for a week in the freezer. They would come around and collect these animals from these people and count them over a long period of time. The results of extrapolating the count to include cat owners in general showed that PET CATS were killing on the order of 10's of MILLIONS of birds each year! I'll find the article and type it in. > You must be aware of the real villian; > the greed of mankind. Bad Man. BAD MAN. (I can almost hear Lorne Greene now...) You mean the IRRESPONSIBILITY of man. The IRRESPONSIBLE people who don't keep tabs on their tabby. > And no, I will not get into it, what with > pesticides, fertilizer, and toxic waste, it's too big to take on. It's often the combination of many LITTLE things that do the most damange. Nature is very pliable at surmounting large incidents whether they are caused by "bad man" or nature. --
christ@ccnysci.UUCP (Chris Thompson) (11/29/89)
In article <822@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > I have seen cats at my grandmother's house bothering the birds > at the feeder. She finally put it on a pole and the cats couldn't > climb it. If your concerned that cats are depopulating the birds of > our world, then you are wrong. You must be aware of the real villian; > the greed of mankind. And no, I will not get into it, what with > pesticides, fertilizer, and toxic waste, it's too big to take on. > And someone else (sorry, missed the name-actually, deleted it too soon) wrote: > >Note that the cats have very little success with the urban regulars--adult > >House Sparrows, pigeons, and starlings--but really rake up during migration > >(getting a variety of warbler and wrens, esp.). > > > Are you sure about this? Maybe in your area, but here, the migrating > birds aren't found resting in housing developments. You know, maybe > we should define the environment and vicinities that we are discussing. Well. I think I mentioned an article in Natural History Magazine, a few weeks ago. The article appeared sometime over the summer (I can get an exact citation if anyone is interested). In short, the researchers found that housecats- real pets, not feral or semi-feral-- were THE leading cause of mortality among birds and small mammals in Britain. (Small mammals included not only house mice and rats, but field mice, shrews, voles, and anything else they could catch (I presume)). Their method (the researchers', that is) was to go to all the households in a village and find out if they owned a cat. If so, would they please keep track of everything your cat kills and brings home? Each household was given a plastic bag, which was collected once/week. The carcasses - the number and variety - amazed the authors. Granted, the cats might have brought home carcasses found in the woods, but I don't think cats will play with a corpse, the way a dog would. In my area, migrating birds are often found in urban and suburban zones. Obviously, there is no other place for them to be. I routinely see odd birds near my house, and in Central Park. Unfortunately, when they are forced to concentrate in this fashion, predators of various sorts will also tend to gather. Finally, with regards to feeders: not all birds will forage at a feeder. Some, like palm warblerss, are ground feeders (as are juncos). I'm sure we could come up with a lot more, so safeguarding your feeder is not enough. What you say about the 'greed of mankind' is probably true. However, that alway seemed to me to be one of the more selfish attitudes around: "Well, people are lousy, it's mankind's fault, so I won't have any part-no matter how small-in the solution." Doesn't it make sense to make an effort at doing something- in this case, trying to keep your cat from nailing a bird? Chris Thompson -- Chris Thompson <cbtcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu> <christ@ccnysci> [What does not kill us, pisses us off!!]
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (11/30/89)
In article <3765@ccnysci.UUCP> christ@ccnysci.UUCP (Chris Thompson) writes: >In article <822@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: >weeks ago. The article appeared sometime over the summer (I can get an >exact citation if anyone is interested). In short, the researchers found >that housecats- real pets, not feral or semi-feral-- were THE leading >cause of mortality among birds and small mammals in Britain. (Small Don't the British people have a different attitude towards cats? I've seen television shows (PBS) documenting the stray population. Quite a different approach than we take here in the US. Also, the size of the land mass is also quite different. But that aside, I do find this an eyeopener. >mammals included not only house mice and rats, but field mice, shrews, >voles, and anything else they could catch (I presume)). Their method the researchers', that is) was to go to all the household Did they give any statistics on the rate of depopulating the birds? Or, what ratio of bords to the total estmated population were being killed by cats? Also, were stray cat kills tallyed? > >Finally, with regards to feeders: not all birds will forage at a feeder. >Some, like palm warblerss, are ground feeders (as are juncos). I'm sure >we could come up with a lot more, so safeguarding your feeder is not enough. Chris, you make another good point here. The context was that cats are not soley nor are they mainly responsible for depopulating the earth of birds. The study you mention in Britain is still of a much smaller and more densely populated area than the US. >people are lousy, it's mankind's fault, so I won't have any part-no matter >how small-in the solution." Doesn't it make sense to make an effort at >doing something- in this case, trying to keep your cat from nailing a bird? You do not know that my cat has ever nailed a bird. He is 2 years old, neutered, and stays around the house because of the pecking order in my neighborhood. I've seen him watch birds, but I have never seen him go after one nor seen any evidnce in my yard that he has ever killed one. I DO make an effort, no matter how small it may seem in relative terms, to change our attitude toward the environment and other living things. To imply that I do not care or make an effort surely shows how little you know of me. Denise Caire :-) That's the smiley I owe ya. denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM
jms@turing.newcastle.ac.uk (J.M. Spencer) (12/01/89)
Following this disccussion of cats are the major reason for wild bird deaths in the UK... I do not see how this can be proven or disproven. Certainly it could be shown that cats do kill birds and perhaps in large numbers, I would like to see how *anyone* can say that cats kill more birds (of any species) than say starvation in hard winters, or collisions with motor vehicles, or natural predation from mink/fox/hawks etc. The reasoning is simply that to proove the case either way it would be necessary to collect and analyse the lives/deaths of *every* bird that lives. Since the discussion has centred around bird tables, I assume we are talking about passerines (sp?) and the like. Rest assured, the British population of blackbirds, thrushes etc has never been higher (due in part to atificial habitat and foodstuffs). The populatin levels of both birds and cats is artificially high: predation is natural whether you like it or not
denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) (12/05/89)
In article <1760.25726f7f@mccall.uucp> scott@mccall.uucp writes: >In article <822@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: >> I live in a mild enough climate to leave the cat out most of the time. >> I keep him in when it is cold and wet or when he wants in. I do not >> keep a litter box in the house as I don't care to smell it. >> Denise Caire >If I every have to live in your neighborhood or you in mine, you may >find a package of your cat's deposit somewhere on your property. I >hate stepping in shit, and just because you can't stand the smell >doesn't mean I want to. My cat already makes his deposits on my property. He loves barkdust and that I have a planty of! If you were a neighbor and stepped in his shit, then you should try walking on the sidewalk or pathway like everyone else does. one else. > Do you feel better now? People who profess to love birds and hate cats are disgusting hypocritical snobs. > I have indoor birds and like to feed the >outdoor ones too. I enjoy them both. I also like cats but not when >they're not under control(supervision). Are you implying that cats are controllable or trainable? How about a little self-education here before spouting off! > I got a cat that visits my ^^^ have >yard frequently. I've tried to shoe it away only to have it return. >I would talk to the owner but I don't know who it is(if any). So, instead of locating the owner (even a door-to-door canvassing would work), you would simply shoot the cat if it weren't against the law? Where do you live? I thank God you are not my neighbor! > My >next trick will be a bucket of cold water(and winter is coming soon) >on the cat. You are truely demented. What a premeditated bit of cruelty that is. > If that doesn't keep him away then a kerosine wire brush >on it's butt might give him an idea. A cat that is fed at a home >needs no birds for a meal. I doubt that the cat needs to kill birds for food. But, on the other hand, aren't you being cruel in luring the birds to within range of the cat? > For those of you that want to argue against >that, then why should the cat be able to kill the birds? I know it is hard to see a little bird's life snuffed out by a cat, but what are the odds that it's going to survive pesticides, toxic wastes, jet engines, deplenished nesting areas, possums, racoons, other preditors, and on and on? Get off the cats case. We all play a part. > Or why not >fine the owners of the cat for cruelty towards birds? Or bird owners for cruelty toward cats? >Scott Davis (800)255-2762, in Kansas (913)776-4041 >The McCall Pattern Company, 615 McCall Rd., Manhattan, KS 66502, USA Remind me to never, ever visit here! Yech. Denise Caire denise@dadla.WR.tEK.COM
scott@mccall.uucp (12/06/89)
In article <918@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>, denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes: > In article <1760.25726f7f@mccall.uucp> scott@mccall.uucp writes: Denise: I'm going to post a followup to this is rec.pets if you wish to continue with this. -Scott- -- Scott Davis (800)255-2762, in Kansas (913)776-4041 The McCall Pattern Company, 615 McCall Rd., Manhattan, KS 66502, USA UUCP: rutgers!ksuvax1!mccall!scott Internet: scott%mccall@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu