rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kehaar) (11/29/89)
In article <2160@heavens-gate.lucid.com> pab@lucid.com (Peter Benson) writes: > >Well this discussion is way off birds, but my experience is a bit a of >twist. My cat was most likely eaten by a redtail. It was in a pretty >remote place, and I don't think it's very likely to happen anywhere very >suburban. I missed the cat when she disappeared, but I felt it was a much >better way to go than getting run over by a car. She was probably >encroaching on the turf of the redtails. Though the hawks didn't do near >as good a job at keeping the squirrels out of my food. (Near this time I >had a redtail drop the claws and tail of an eaten sharp shinned(?) hawk on >the hood of my car. I took it as an omen that the cat was really gone.) > You are probably right about your cat getting eaten by a red-tailed hawk. However, I find it extremely odd that a red-tail would drop the talons and rectrices (tailfeathers) of a eaten sharp-shinned hawk, for two reasons. One, the sharp-shin is highly manuverable--far more so than a big buteo. Further, the red-tail is not generally considered a bird-eater, but preys primarily on rodents. However, a hawk will take whatever is easiest, and if it came upon a sick or wounded sharp-shin, the sharp-shin would probably become dinner. The other reason that this is odd, though, is the way this red-tail handled it's prey. First, most bird-eaters will swallow the rectrices along with the pygostyle (the muscle group which controls the tailfeathers). Also, a red-tail will _always_ take apart it's prey on the ground, and never (at least that I heard of) carry the inedible remains of their prey around. >I see a lot of turkey vultures, and hawks (redtails mostly, but some >coopers hawks(?)) around where I live and work (mostly suburban Palo Alto >and Menlo Park, CA). Where do they eat? I see vultures all the time. The >suburban area can't be a very good place to see carrion. I have seen some >coopers hawks(?) going after pigeons. Are they mostly just straying into >the 'burbs from the bay or the hills, or do they find anything to eat >there? Do we have any other reports of raptor and vulture (are vultures >considered raptors too?) behavior in the 'burbs. Yes, vultures are considered bona fide raptors. A surprising amount of carrion is present in a suburban area. However, during lean times, the vultures will act as hawks and hunt rodents, which they are perfectly capable of doing. Also, Coopers Hawks are shy birds of the deep forest. However, Sharp-Shinned Hawks have nothing against the suburbs when it comes to hunting, and you might also look to see if these "Cooper's Hawks" are Merlins, which go under the alias "Pigeon Hawk." However, telling between Cooper's Hawks and Sharp-Shinned Hawks in some cases is the most difficult of all raptor identification puzzles. However, even during migration,Cooper's Hawks tend to stick to the forests. A suburban Cooper's would be the rarest of rarities. But, recall the fundamental rule of birding: Birds never follow human-set rules, at least not all of the time. This rule is the reason birding is so fun... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Cody Buchmann ^.^ "Kehaar" email: rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "Now I fly for you..." - Watership Down ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
john@nmtsun.nmt.edu (John Shipman) (11/29/89)
According to one story I heard, there was at least one Great Horned Owl that specialized in hunting well-fed suburban cats around Los Altos Hills in the Bay Area. Sharp-shinned Hawks will often patrol bird feeders. I lost a House Finch to an adult female just last week; she spent 20 minutes dismembering and eating it (marvelously efficient, eating everything but some of the larger feathers), then hopped to a nearby perch and relaxed for another half an hour. I live right in town, although the town is not too large (8,000). I also see American Kestrels in town fairly often, and the other day I saw a larger falcon here, possibly a Merlin. Red-tails and Turkey Vultures were some of the first birds I put on my yard list. -- John Shipman/Zoological Data Processing/Socorro, New Mexico john@nmtsun.nmt.edu, ucbvax!unmvax!nmtsun!john ``Let's go outside and commiserate with nature.'' [Dave Farber]
pab@lucid.com (Peter Benson) (11/30/89)
In article <1989Nov29.032434.9233@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kehaar) writes:
You are probably right about your cat getting eaten by a red-tailed hawk.
However, I find it extremely odd that a red-tail would drop the talons and
rectrices (tailfeathers) of a eaten sharp-shinned hawk, for two reasons.
One,
the sharp-shin is highly manuverable--far more so than a big buteo.
Further,
the red-tail is not generally considered a bird-eater, but preys
primarily on
rodents. However, a hawk will take whatever is easiest, and if it came upon
a sick or wounded sharp-shin, the sharp-shin would probably become dinner.
The other reason that this is odd, though, is the way this red-tail handled
it's prey. First, most bird-eaters will swallow the rectrices along
with the
pygostyle (the muscle group which controls the tailfeathers). Also, a
red-tail
will _always_ take apart it's prey on the ground, and never (at least that I
heard of) carry the inedible remains of their prey around.
The redtail had been in a tree and I disturbed it. It dropped the remains
on the truck as it flew off. As I remember I was very sure it was a sharpy
after looking carefully at the feathers and studying the books that I had.
Around the same time I disturbed another hawk (probably redtail) while
eating a snake and it dropped it in front of my car. Things were feeling
very ominous at that time. It could have been a coyote or a great horned
owl that got the cat, but that incident convinced me that it could easily
have been a redtail. This was in a very remote section of canyon country
in southern Utah.
-ptr-
pab@lucid.comrcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (R C. Buchmann) (11/30/89)
In article <2161@heavens-gate.lucid.com> pab@lucid.com (Peter Benson) writes: >The redtail had been in a tree and I disturbed it. It dropped the remains >on the truck as it flew off. As I remember I was very sure it was a sharpy >after looking carefully at the feathers and studying the books that I had. >Around the same time I disturbed another hawk (probably redtail) while >eating a snake and it dropped it in front of my car. Things were feeling >very ominous at that time. It could have been a coyote or a great horned >owl that got the cat, but that incident convinced me that it could easily >have been a redtail. This was in a very remote section of canyon country >in southern Utah. > Oops. My mistake. This particular redtail, as I suggested earlier, probably found himself a sick and/or injured sharp-shin that was unable to defend itself (and a sharp-shin must be pretty far gone to be unable to defend itself!), and made a meal of it. Hawks, when they haven't eaten for a while, ain't picky. However, if your cat got lost in a place like you described, death by redtail is only one of several possible deaths. And as I said, birds live to break human rules... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Cody Buchmann ^.^ "Kehaar" email: rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "Now I fly for you..." - Watership Down ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
geek@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Chris Schmandt) (11/30/89)
In article <1989Nov29.032434.9233@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kehaar) writes: >... Also, a red-tail >will _always_ take apart it's prey on the ground, and never (at least that I >heard of) carry the inedible remains of their prey around. I don't wish to disagree with someone who obviously knows an awful lot about raptors as Kehaar! (interesting postings, too!). But I've seen a Red Tail dismember a pigeon(?) in a tree (while being mobbed by quite a crowd of crows. I am not sure how much was actually eaten at this location, though. chris
jms@turing.newcastle.ac.uk (J.M. Spencer) (11/30/89)
Following on the discussion of redtailed hawk eats cats... I am a falconer and fly a redtail. My hawk has several times attacked cats with intent to devour them. Fortunately, she has thus far been unsuccessful. I have a friend whose Harris hawk has lost two toes and the use of a third through an attack on a feral cat. The cat bit the hawk deep in the thigh. This led to a serious infection which almost killed the hawk. The hawk still has the main toes and so can still hunt rabbits, but tends to loose more of them. On the subject of whether a redtail could catch a Cooper's hawk. A redtail is *very* unlikely to catch one. But my redtail is very partial to carrion, so what's to say a wild redtail cannot find a dead Coopers and eat it. Also most hawks *will not* eat the primary feathers from the wings not the tail feathers of their quarry unless the quarry is very small and the hawk in low condition ie: approaching starvation. What time of year did the redtail drop its food onto the car. Summer time? If so, it will have been carrying the food back to its nest for theyoung hawks.
mm@cloud9.Stratus.COM (Mike Mahler) (12/02/89)
Well... recently I mentioned about having a hawk pair in our
wooded yard (strange since it's a VERY congested area nearby or
do these type of hawks not mind people?) and it was being
attacked in the air by *5* crows! BIG CROWS! They were
winning too (the hawk kept trying to fly away but never attacked
the crows). Is this normal? I'd sure hate to see those garbage pickers
make meat out of the hawk!
-- dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Conway) (12/02/89)
In regards to the question about hawks being mobbed by crows, this is very commonly-seen behavior. No, they weren't out to eat the hawk; they were trying to drive it away. Since some hawks (goshawks, notably) will eat crows, and the crows are well aware of this, they will play it safe and band together to drive an invading hawk away. One often sees songbirds doing the same thing. No doubt the hawk was just flying along, trying to ignore them as he went about his business. The noble falconer whose hawk was bitten by a cat is very lucky to have saved the bird's life. Cats carry a potent bacteria in their saliva against which birds have little or no immunity; thus, a bite from a cat, even if the wound itself is trivial, almost always spells certain death for the bird. The moral of the story is: if Tabby comes home with a live bird in his mouth, let him keep it. You will not be doing the bird any favors by wrestling it away from the cat and setting it free. -- Sam Conway, Vermont Raptor Center dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu Save the humans!
mjm@oliven.olivetti.com (Michael Mammoser) (12/03/89)
In article <1989Nov29.032434.9233@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kehaar) writes: > > Also, Coopers Hawks are shy birds of the deep forest. > A suburban Cooper's would be the rarest of rarities. Actually, I've had a number of experiences observing Cooper's Hawks in suburban settings. I've seen them in creekside habitats that flow through residential areas, bordering on people's backyards; seen them sitting in trees in frontyards along residential streets during rush hour. On the day after Thanksgiving, when I arrived at my friend's house to go out birding, one had just taken a bird in his backyard. They are known to nest on the Stanford Campus, although off the beaten path. Perhaps your experiences with them has something to do with population differences; I've heard that they are less common in the east. Also, in the accounts that I have read about the infamous "Chicken Hawk", they have been characterized as bold and daring in their hunting, undeterred even by the presence of people. Mike
rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (R C. Buchmann) (12/05/89)
In article <51748@oliveb.olivetti.com> mjm@oliven.olivetti.com (Michael Mammoser) writes: > > Actually, I've had a number of experiences observing Cooper's >Hawks in suburban settings. I've seen them in creekside habitats that >flow through residential areas, bordering on people's backyards; seen >them sitting in trees in frontyards along residential streets during >rush hour. > Whoops. Again, my mistake. I admit that I am _not_ a well traveled birder (I don't own a car and don't have enough money to travel long distance), and most of my ornithological know-how comes from books or, in the case of raptors, my father. In the east, Cooper's are not in the habit of going to the suburbs, which have been taken over by Kestrels. You are right that a Cooper's Hawk is considered a rarity (at least in the midwest), but perhaps us birders are missing more than we know in all the sharp-shins. > Also, in the accounts that I have read about the infamous >"Chicken Hawk", they have been characterized as bold and daring in >their hunting, undeterred even by the presence of people. I forgot about those stories. I did read once that Cooper's Hawks were one of the fiercest accipiters (2nd only to Goshawk) and were totally undeterred by man, and that they were the legendary "Chicken Hawk" (Although Goshawks also played the part). My comment about shy stemms from the fact that Cooper's Hawks in the wilderness (at least here) seem leery of man. Last year was one of the worst years ever for winter bird populations, and I didn't hear a single report of a Cooper's in a suburb. But you are probably right--it depends on the population. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Cody Buchmann ^.^ "Kehaar" email: rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "Now I fly for you..." - Watership Down ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
grp@unify.uucp (Greg Pasquariello) (12/05/89)
In article <51748@oliveb.olivetti.com> mjm@oliven.olivetti.com (Michael Mammoser) writes: >In article <1989Nov29.032434.9233@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, rcb33483@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kehaar) writes: >> >> Also, Coopers Hawks are shy birds of the deep forest. >> A suburban Cooper's would be the rarest of rarities. > > Actually, I've had a number of experiences observing Cooper's >Hawks in suburban settings. I've seen them in creekside habitats that >population differences; I've heard that they are less common in the east. Coops are a lot less common in the east. The statistic I have heard is 1 coopers for every 40 sharpies. In my experience at my Hawk watch it was more like 1 cooper's for every 20 sharpies. They tended to nest in more remote areas, but in migration you could find them anywhere, including an apple tree in someone's front yard along a busy thoroughfare. > >Mike - Greg -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Pasquariello (916) 920-9092 grp@unify.UUCP Unify Corporation ...!{csusac, pyramid}!unify!grp
sid@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Sid Johnson WB6VWH) (12/06/89)
In article <17546@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Conway) writes: > > (...good stuff deleted...) >The noble falconer whose hawk was bitten by a cat is very lucky to >have saved the bird's life. Cats carry a potent bacteria in their >saliva against which birds have little or no immunity; thus, a bite >from a cat, even if the wound itself is trivial, almost always spells >certain death for the bird. Can you give more information on this? I would like to know more and I think others on the net could benefit also. Over the past 25 years I have done almost exactly what you have said not to do, except I didn't let them go, I tried to make sure they were healthy before doing so. Without exception they all died within 48 hrs, usually less, even though a few had what appeared to be trivial wounds (one or two skin punctures, virtually no bleeding). My wife and I took turns staying up all night on a couple of these incidents to no avail. For awhile we thought that we just didn't know enough about being bird vets but it finally became obvious that what we new, or didn't know, wasn't the main factor. Fortunately wev'e only been through this 10 times or so and that is more than enough. I don't know if I could take what you guys go through with taking care of shot hawks and the like. Keep up the great work Sid Johnson (WB6VWH) - Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA sid@jato.jpl.nasa.gov UUCP:ames!elroy!jato!sid
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (12/07/89)
Oftentimes, avian vets in the area will tend to injured wild birds without charge. I've brought in a few to my local vet who has checked them out and offered advice. About cat bites, I am told that the bacteria in their mouths is very nasty to most living creatures that are not cats. Add to this is the way they bite their prey. They don't rip and tear like a dog does (which actually is better since it causes bleeding that washes out the bacteria the dog will leave on the animal) they literally inject their germs into the wound. My poor husband was attacked by a cat and wound up in the emergency room with a hand full of nasty puncture wounds. He found himself a human pin cushion with a tetnus shot and antibiotics. The doctor said that whenever you get bit by a cat you should get your butt to the doc for a dosage of antibiotics (no pun intended :-)). It's much worse for the birds. Not only do they have less blood overall to lose, and far more complications from stress than humans do, but their systems have a much worse time fighting off infection and poisons from cat bites. Wildlife rehabilitators often have antibiotics and dosage information on hand for accident victims. Vets and the state wildlife office in your area will have rehabilitators names and phone numbers available for you to contact and bring your injured birds to. Sitting up all night with an injured bird won't do either of you any good if you don't know exactly what you're doing and have the proper tools available. I'm not saying that to make anyone feel bad who has taken the time and effort to try to save a wounded bird. I'm saying it because the rehab people are trained (oftentimes better than regular vets) specifically to take care of wild animals and know how best not to stress them and how to treat their wounds in the least traumatic way. And they are oftentimes very grateful that you care enough to "bother" to take the poor thing to them. They also have humane methods to destroy those that can't be saved and end their suffering. They have a feel for who will live and who is suffering needlessly. I'd love to get into raptor rehabilitation, but I doubt if I could watch them eat :-) Mikki Barry
mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) (12/07/89)
sid@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Sid Johnson WB6VWH) writes: >In article <17546@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Conway) writes: [About potent bacteria in cat saliva.] >Can you give more information on this? I would like to know more and I >think others on the net could benefit also. I have read the same thing in Bird Talk magazine. If I remember correctly, the claws also carry bacteria, as well as the saliva and claws of dogs. This is why if you allow your bird to play with your dogs and cats, you should supervise them closely. On the other side of the fence, parrots have some pretty respectable beaks that can do some real damage to your dog or cat's nose. Pets of different species should not be allowed unsupervised play. Cally and Vila break this rule by living together, but they were closely supervised at first to make sure they would get along. Anyone out there with Bird Talk handy, or a vet, who could tell us more about this bacteria, and for sure if dogs are involved? -Mary and Blake's Birds(tm)