dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Conway) (03/19/90)
I just spent nearly an hour ripping some very stubborn bloodfeathers out of an equally stubborn peregrine falcon. By the time I was done, it was difficult to tell which of us was more stressed out. In fact, I was so upset by the task that I had to turn the bird over to another person to clean off the blood when I was done. Let me interject at this point that a bloodfeather is sort of like an "ingrown feather", and results when a bird is unable to preen the feather shafts. These become very brittle and tend to bleed heavily from the shaft when broken, creating a potentially dangerous bloodloss situation. With each pull on the broken feathers, the poor falcon gave what very strongly resembled a pain response: that is, she screamed herself hoarse and flailed wildly about. My own stress response was caused by the fact that I was apparently putting this bird through an awful lot of physical torment which I could not avoid. My questions are twain: Do birds feel pain in the same sense that we do, or is it, as some claim, a much lesser feeling of discomfort that results more in a fear reaction than in the actual physical agony that humans feel; secondly, if indeed they do feel pain, is there any form of topical or local anesthetic that can be used safely upon a bird to help reduce the stress of an emergency procedure like this? General anesthesia is obviously out of the question, especially for a field rescue. Please respond via email, if you have any answers to either of these questions, particularly the latter. -- Sam Conway * If you are not listed on the dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu * National Registry of Bone Marrow Chemistry Dept., Dartmouth College, NH * Donors...you should be. Vermont Raptor Center (VINS) * Contact your local Red Cross.
christ@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Chris Thompson) (03/20/90)
In article <20693@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Conway) writes: >I just spent nearly an hour ripping some very stubborn bloodfeathers out >of an equally stubborn peregrine falcon. By the time I was done, it was >difficult to tell which of us was more stressed out. In fact, I was so >upset by the task that I had to turn the bird over to another person to >clean off the blood when I was done. > >My questions are twain: Do birds feel pain in the same sense that we do, >or is it, as some claim, a much lesser feeling of discomfort that results >more in a fear reaction than in the actual physical agony that humans feel; >secondly, if indeed they do feel pain, is there any form of topical or >local anesthetic that can be used safely upon a bird to help reduce the >stress of an emergency procedure like this? General anesthesia is >obviously out of the question, especially for a field rescue. > >Please respond via email, if you have any answers to either of these >questions, particularly the latter. > Sorry about replying over the net, but my mailer bounced this. Here goes. I don't know about the latter question (I don't KNOW the answer to either but I can give you a line on who you should ask...) Anyhow, here in New York there is this great place called the Animal Medical Center. I'm sure that in your line of work, you've heard of it. Why not drop them a line or give them a call? I'm sure they'd be more than happy to suggest something. Now, the first question, about pain & suffering. In the upcoming 20th International Congress in Christchurch (this December) there is a symposium on pain & stress in birds, under the physiology section. The conveners are A. Elzanowski and M. Abs, both from the Federal Republic of Germany. The titles given in the circular, with authors, are as follows: M.J. Gentle (United Kingdom). Behavioural & physiological responses to pain in the chicken. C.A. Ristau (USA). Avian intelligence & suffering. J. Mench (USA). Stress responses in birds. J.F. Hurnik (Canada). Behavioral analyses of pain & suffering in domestic birds. A. Feduccia (USA). Stress on birds in zoos. >Sam Conway * If you are not listed on the >dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu * National Registry of Bone Marrow >Chemistry Dept., Dartmouth College, NH * Donors...you should be. >Vermont Raptor Center (VINS) * Contact your local Red Cross. You might try giving anyone of these people a buzz. What you've asked, is a lot like asking a bird (or any anumal) whether it feels emotions, or has opinions on things, or, well, take your pick. We can't KNOW, because THEY can't tell us. Now, before anyone flames me on this, let me add that I have opinions on the matter, and we probably agree on most of them. But I stand by what I said- we can't KNOW until we can communicate. Chris Thompson -- "Never count a human dead until you've seen the body. And even then you can make a mistake". -Lady Fenring
mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach) (03/21/90)
christ@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Chris Thompson) writes: >You might try giving anyone of these people a buzz. What you've asked, >is a lot like asking a bird (or any anumal) whether it feels emotions, or >has opinions on things, or, well, take your pick. We can't KNOW, because >THEY can't tell us. Now, before anyone flames me on this, let me add that >I have opinions on the matter, and we probably agree on most of them. But >I stand by what I said- we can't KNOW until we can communicate. No flames here, but I do disagree. First you might want to check out an article in Bird Talk Magazine. There they discussed the research a certain person is doing with an African Gray. They have taught him to talk, and he can identify objects, identify colors, and count. His intelligence is estimated to rival that of a chimp's. He even distinguishes between cooked corn and hard corn, calling the latter "rock corn". "rock corn" is a phrase of his own making. He was taught to identify a rock as "rock", and they suppose he associated the rock's characteristic of hardness with the hard corn. Unfortunately I don't remember which specific issue this was in. However, in almost every issue of Bird Talk you will find examples of parrots associating certain words with their meanings, and I also remember an excellent article on Amazon body language. There was also a story about two larger parrots. One got out of his cage, but his friends cage was locked. The free bird had seen the cage unlocked and knew where the key was. He got it, and tried to use it on the lock. The key fell into the cage. The caged bird picked up and passed it out to the free bird. The free bird succeeded in unlocking the cage, but the owner who was supposed to be gone and was actually watching their antics, prevent the escape from proceeding further. They presented this as a true story (I do wonder a little), but if it is true, it shows birds working together and using tools! I do know my two largest parrots (cockatiel and conure) can untie knots, unscrew wingnuts, and disassemble small chains. Living with 3 parrots and 2 finches has really enriched my life. I have also gotten to the point where I can identify their moods and understand their communication between each other and with me. Thanks to Cally's excellent training, if you give me a picture of a cockatiel I can usually identify the mood of the bird at the time the picture was took. There have been a few pictures of cockatiels in Bird Talk, where the subjects were very upset and about to have a hissy fit. ;-) My parrots use body language and calls to communicate with each other, and body and verbal language, and gestures to communicate with me. For example, when Cally wants her head preened, she will lean it against Vila's chest. If the preening does not come in a (to her) reasonable amount of time, she will proceed to chew on his toes until he complies with the request. When Cally wants out of the cage, she will sit by the front door. If she is really adamant, she will go to a smaller side door, and repeatedly lift it up and drop it with a bang until she is let out, or looses interest. She plays peek-a-boo with me, and SAYS "peek-a-boo". She says and knows the difference between "I'll be back" and "I'll be RIGHT back". Cally also knows her name, and will recognize it even when it's said on TV. (All of my birds are named after characters in Blake's 7. When Cally first watched it, every time her name was said, she answered with "Pretty Bird" or a wolf whistle.) Blakey rivals Cally's vocabulary if not her intelligence. The lastest new thing he has said is "Mary Bird". I have NEVER said "Mary Bird" before he said it. He knows his name, and can say Cally's (I don't know if he associates the word with her), and seems to know that "Mary" (or rather "Mary Bird" ;-) is my name, even though I don't say it ("Mary") much. Back to the original subject. Yes, my birds have given me reason to believe they feel (and aren't particularly fond of) pain. A few weeks ago, Cally was having some sort of problem with her new flight feathers (she's moulting, again, yet, take your pick). When she raised or stretched her left wing, she yelped. She could fly all right, but moving the wing in a certain way hurt. It didn't take more than a day or two to get over it, but I'd say it was clear evidence for her feeling pain. There have been other examples of pain, but this was the best one that did not include a reason to be fearful or stressed. Cally and Blakey thrash when they are scared, Vila just cowers. -Mary
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (03/21/90)
That's one that I've often thought about because we've had to pull blood feathers on birds before. Unfortunately, there is usually no alternative. Pull the feather or the bird bleeds to death. Anyway, my amazon growls when he is being hurt (granted, he growl at other times too, but the "pain" growl is different and more intense). My vet has also told me that she believes that birds feel pain. She always apologizes to them and covers their head with a towel before doing anything that might hurt. I think it would be far safer to assume that they DO experience pain so that we never hurt them needlessly. that goes for outdoor too. p.s. How about more falcon/hawk stories? They are facinating. Mikki Barry
richman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael Richman) (03/21/90)
In article <1990Mar20.204745.6549@intercon.com> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: > >I think it would be far safer to assume that they DO experience pain >so that we never hurt them needlessly. that goes for outdoor too. > >Mikki Barry > Now there's an intelligent thought. Rather than asking the ori- ginal question from the viewpoint of how a bird might measure up to man in terms of pain, Mikki turns the table and asks to show how they are different. This has interesting implications to the original wild birds being treated. Hats off to you, Mikki (:-). -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Mike Richman smart internet/bitnet/uucp: mrichman@uiuc.edu = = U of Illinois old bitnet: mrichman%uiuc.edu@uiucvmd = = Water Survey old uucp: uunet!uiuc.edu!mrichman =