jlevy@cbnewsd.att.com (janet.levy) (11/08/90)
In article <273716A3.4683@intercon.com>, kdb@macaw.intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) writes: > In article <9003@cognos.UUCP>, stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) writes: > > I disagree strongly with that pet shop owner. Pelleted diets (the good > > ones) provide a completely balanced diet for your bird. Many birds > > (including cockatiels) don't crave variety, so pellets are great. It > > The only problem with this is the following. There have been NO long term > studies about the effects of feeding only pellets. We recently had two very > nice cockatiel breeders die due to calcified organs. The vet thinks, no > real clue here, that it was because they were on a pellet ONLY diet for all > of their life. We feed a variety of foods, seed, pellets, and fresh fruit > and veggies. Do the same for you bird, there just has not been enough study > done yet to know for sure that there are no long term problems with pellets. > -- I have been following this discussion about feeding with great interest. I have about 25 English budgies which I have bred. I keep complete records on my birds, and find that after about four years of age I tend to lose them. They sometimes get a digestive disorder which is not bacterial (vet cannot culture it). Many of the females seem overly fat and though the vet says English budgies tend to this, I am coming to believe that this is contributing to their early deaths. Some appear to have tumors (called fatty tumors by the vet), but they may also get internal tumors for all I know. These birds are bred very seldom (2-3 pairs a year for only two clutches each). Anyway, about a year and a half ago I started changing my feeding habits. Before I was feeding seed mixed with Petamine, supplemented with greens and carrots. Now I feed 1/2 seed mixed with a portion I thaw daily which consists of corn, shredded lima beans, brown rice and Roudybush crumbles (I used to use dogfood in place of the pellets). I supplement with Nekton, fresh vegetables, and a calcium source. The birds do well on this diet, but some are still obese and the deaths continue. My new theory is that they lack exercise. Most of my cages are tall and narrow which I have recently learned is not the best design. I am thinking of building large flight cages to encourage the birds to fly around more (it is too difficult and dangerous to let them out in the house, although I have a few special pets who get out daily and these birds seem to be in good shape). I am also going to try cutting back even more on the seed portion of their diet. Does anyone have any opinions on these ideas? I would welcome any helpful advice. Thanks, Janet Levy jsl@ihlpm.ATT.COM
rmura@world.std.com (Ron Mura) (11/09/90)
In article <1990Nov7.193411.22165@cbnewsd.att.com> jlevy@cbnewsd.att.com (janet.levy) writes: > > I have been following this discussion about feeding with great > interest. I have about 25 English budgies which I have bred. > I keep complete records on my birds, and find that after about > four years of age I tend to lose them. They sometimes get a > digestive disorder which is not bacterial (vet cannot culture > it). Many of the females seem overly fat and though the vet > says English budgies tend to this, I am coming to believe that > this is contributing to their early deaths. Some appear to > have tumors (called fatty tumors by the vet), but they may also > get internal tumors for all I know. These birds are bred very > seldom (2-3 pairs a year for only two clutches each). > I can't comment on every type of food you are giving them, but it definitely sounds like you are in the right direction. Our two budgies got very fat when they were about 3 or 4, with tumor-like deposits (not actually tumors). We had given them occasional vegetables, but they were getting mixed, commercial-type seed. The avian vet we took them to said they should be on 100% white millet, get vegetable(s) every day, and get regular exercise. The changes definitely have helped them, although the male has retained a fatty deposit. Another thing we did a year ago that seems to have helped was to introduce into their cage a budgie that was a few months old. She has kept the older two quite active! I wouldn't try this without careful observation--the older ones could mercilessly pick on the young one if it is too young, and I suppose the young one could in theory drive the older ones to exhaustion. It would also complicate things if you are trying to breed them. It has worked very well in our case, though. -- - Ron Mura, Boston, Mass. rmura@world.std.com
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (11/10/90)
Oh no, more diet questions :-). After doing lots of research and listening to lots of vets, nutritionists, breeders, etc. etc., I have come to the following conclusions. Note, they work for me. I'm not saying this is the ONLY way, or even that it will work for you. But here's what the consensus is: 1) NO pelleted diet is "complete" regardless of what the ads say. 2) Protein levels should be kept at about 16-18% in adult birds, REGARDLESS of whether they are breeding. Higher protein can cause a phenomenon that looks like calcification, tumors, etc. etc. This rules out dog food, most breeder formulations of pellets, etc. 3) Birds can get bored with their food. So, if you feed the same thing day in and day out, the bird may get bored and take it out on his feathers, etc. Variety is a MUST. Whether it be by different types of seeds, nuts, fruits, veggies, different size pellets, juices, etc. etc. 4) Birds NEED vitamin supplements. My personal bird diet for cockatiels consists of 1/2 ziegler pellets, 1/2 kellogs pellets, with 2 or three heaping tablespoons of a mixture consisting of petamine, vionate, and nekton S (they don't NEED E, they breed enough as it is :-)). They also receive fresh kale, millet and different types of fruits and veggies on a daily basis. Diet for parrots is 1/2 kellogs pellets, 1/2 kellogs FRESH seeds (no sunflower mix) topped with the above mixture, and fresh fruits and veggies daily. They also get a heaping dose of E. The pet diets are similar, except they get lots of table foods (with an eye towards fat content, cholesterol, etc. etc.)and no E. The lorrikeet gets nekton lorry and fresh fruit and veggies. I don't put vitamins in the water anymore. I use water bottles that only need cleaning every week. Vitamins in water would become useless after 1/2 a day or so. The bottles eliminate the problems with parrots putting their food in the water and making a sludge. They also stop the cockatiels from using their water as a sewer. Mikki Barry
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (11/13/90)
Mikki, I'm not out to give you a hard time, but I'd like to understand the basis for your comments. In article <273AFB50.15E1@intercon.com> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >Oh no, more diet questions :-). After doing lots of research and listening >to lots of vets, nutritionists, breeders, etc. etc., I have come to >the following conclusions. I'd interested in your research. The good pellets (and they are hard to distinguish from the others) have quite a bit of research put into their composition done by people with doctorates in animal nutrition. Have you gone to that level of detail? >1) NO pelleted diet is "complete" regardless of what the ads say. What's missing? >2) Protein levels should be kept at about 16-18% in adult birds, REGARDLESS > of whether they are breeding. Higher protein can cause a phenomenon > that looks like calcification, tumors, etc. etc. This rules out > dog food, most breeder formulations of pellets, etc. This flies in the face of common sense. Eggs are almost pure protein. Surely a hen's protein requirements are elevated during that time period. Likewise for moulting. Secondly, Roudybush did a study and concluded that the optimal protein level for a breeding cockatiel is 20%. What study are you basing your information on? >3) Birds can get bored with their food. So, if you feed the same thing day > in and day out, the bird may get bored and take it out on his > feathers, etc. Variety is a MUST. Whether it be by different > types of seeds, nuts, fruits, veggies, different size pellets, > juices, etc. etc. Most birds are suspicious of new foods. Many birds, if anything, would prefer to eat the same thing, day-in day-out. I've seen lots and lots of birds that will eat only one thing. Birds that need variety can be given it as a supplement/treat. I'm far from convinced it's a must. It's certainly lower on my priority list compared to serving a nutritious diet. >4) Birds NEED vitamin supplements. I assume because some vitamins in the pellets lose their potency? Which one's specifically. Overdosing of vitamins causes problems just as bad as underfeeding. >I don't put vitamins in the water anymore. I use water bottles that >only need cleaning every week. Vitamins in water would become useless >after 1/2 a day or so. Agreed ... unfortunately many birds are adept at eating around vitamins sprinkled on food (even damp veggies). >The bottles eliminate the problems with parrots >putting their food in the water and making a sludge. They also stop >the cockatiels from using their water as a sewer. Yes, but I find that most of our birds will bathe daily if given a place to do so, and also most of our cockatiels (and some others) really like fresh water (out of the tap). Put two dishes in (both clean) and one is straight from the tap, and they will choose that one every time. My investment in pellets is not financial ... just that I think I'm doing what's best for my birds. I am really interested in hearing of any counter-pellet evidence I should be considering. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario The bird of the day is .... Peach Fronted Conure CANADA K1G 3Z4
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (11/15/90)
In article <9035@cognos.UUCP>, stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) writes: > I'd interested in your research. The good pellets (and they are hard > to distinguish from the others) have quite a bit of research put into > their composition done by people with doctorates in animal nutrition. > Have you gone to that level of detail? Of course I haven't. But one thing you must realize is that 1) most of the research that has been done has been done with chickens, not psitacines and 2) most of the people who have done research have done this in order to sell product. > >1) NO pelleted diet is "complete" regardless of what the ads say. > What's missing? Nobody KNOWS what's missing. That's part of the problem. > >2) Protein levels should be kept at about 16-18% in adult birds, REGARDLESS > > of whether they are breeding. Higher protein can cause a phenomenon > > that looks like calcification, tumors, etc. etc. This rules out > > dog food, most breeder formulations of pellets, etc. > This flies in the face of common sense. Eggs are almost pure protein. > Surely a hen's protein requirements are elevated during that time period. > Likewise for moulting. > Secondly, Roudybush did a study and concluded that the optimal protein > level for a breeding cockatiel is 20%. What study are you basing your > information on? Tom Roudybush's studies are often cited as gospel truth. However, one study is NOT a basket to put all of your eggs in :-). I had a pair of beautiful cockatiels die as a result of too high protein levels for too long a time. See Parrot World, I think May of this year for a contrary article dealing with elevated levels of uric acid in the kidneys of birds on 20% protein. Although a hen's protein requirements are elevated during moulting and breeding, it seems more common sensical to me to feed a lower protein level year round. Also, even if Roudybush was correct as to cockatiels, as we all know, what is good for one species is not necessarily good for all. Also, you will find that most studies that have been done have been done on a short term basis. NOTHING has been done over the lifetime of a psitacine, or even the lifetime of a cockatiel. There just are not the funds available to study cockatiels for a 15 year period. Sure, high protein makes the birds LOOK wonderful. My birds never looked better than when they were on dog food. But it is obvious that they were missing something, else they would have bred. > Most birds are suspicious of new foods. Many birds, if anything, would > prefer to eat the same thing, day-in day-out. I've seen lots and lots > of birds that will eat only one thing. Birds that need variety can > be given it as a supplement/treat. I'm far from convinced it's a must. > It's certainly lower on my priority list compared to serving a nutritious > diet. My birds are very different from your birds in that case. Yes, many birds are suspicious of new foods. Yes, many birds will only eat one thing. But also, given their druthers, many human children will also eat just one thing. That doesn't necessarily mean that one thing is good for them. And with birds, we just do not know enough about what is a nutritious diet and what is not. See the proceedings of the AAV for 1990. > >4) Birds NEED vitamin supplements. > I assume because some vitamins in the pellets lose their potency? > Which one's specifically. Overdosing of vitamins causes problems > just as bad as underfeeding. According to the Nekton people (and yes, I am aware they are out to make money with their vitamins, but so is Tom Roudybush), it is virtually impossible to overdose a bird on vitamins. Like humans, most vitamins are flushed through the system when they are not used. No pellets contain all the vitamins and minerals that birds need. > >The bottles eliminate the problems with parrots > >putting their food in the water and making a sludge. They also stop > >the cockatiels from using their water as a sewer. > > Yes, but I find that most of our birds will bathe daily if given > a place to do so, and also most of our cockatiels (and some others) > really like fresh water (out of the tap). Put two dishes in (both clean) > and one is straight from the tap, and they will choose that one every > time. Very true. If you can keep the bowls clean, and don't mind the extra work, good luck to you. I don't have time to do this with 70 birds. However, I always spray the birds down with a light mist every day which they enjoy and from which they get their bath. > My investment in pellets is not financial ... just that I think I'm > doing what's best for my birds. I am really interested in hearing > of any counter-pellet evidence I should be considering. We're all trying to do what is best for our birds. Learning from each other's failures and successes is a great way to do this. I do not believe that enough research has been done to dub pellets, or any other one food for that matter, to be nutritionally complete for psitacines. Therefore, I try to duplicate, as nearly as possible, the kind of diet they would get in the wild. Granted, not enough research has been done on what they eat in the wild, either. So I try to use a combination of common sense and what other breeders and vets have told me. That's how I came up with my food mixes. I can't tell you how my birds will be in 10 years, but I think that the fresh fruits and veggies, seeds and pellets, and vitamin and mineral supplements will give them everything they need. Mikki Barry --