tjo@spitfire.siemens.edu (Tom Ostrand) (11/30/90)
I drive to work down Rt. 1 from Edison, NJ to Princeton. On the way
I go past the Rutgers U. ag school (Cook College). This morning,
just opposite the Rutgers farm, I noticed a large bird chasing a
smaller one. The smaller was a pigeon, and the larger looked to me
(from a distance) like a crow or gull; it was basically dark all
over, and there are always hundreds of gulls and plenty of crows
around this area.
The chase was taking place directly over the road, with the chased bird
flying back and forth across the highway, quite low. When I got
closer it became obvious that the chaser was not a gull or crow, but
some type of hawk. My first thought was Northern harrier, but what
would it be doing chasing a pigeon? As I drove right underneath the
chase, I got a reasonable look at the back of the large chaser; it
seemed to be solid gray, no white rump patch, the wings were slim
and pointed. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the bird's face.
Given the noticeable size difference between the pigeon and the
chaser, a peregrine seems to be the only possibility. Anyone know
if they are known to be in this central NJ area?
--
Tom Ostrand | tjo@cadillac.siemens.com
Siemens Corporate Research | 609-734-6569
755 College Road East |
Princeton, NJ 08540 |mm@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Mike Mahler) (11/30/90)
Are peregrines bigger than a pigeon? -- Taking action is a choice. Taking NO action is a choice as well.
e343gv@tamuts.tamu.edu (Gary Varner) (11/30/90)
I don't have my bird books here in the office, but during my experience working at the Raptor Rehabilitation and Propagation Project in Eureka Missouri for about a year I was struck by the fact that peregrines are smaller than several things they commonly kill, including ducks most certainly, but also, i think, including pigeons. The heftier female peregrines only weigh about 3 lbs., and while I don't have a reference handy as to the weight of a pigeon, I can't help thinking that many or most male peregrines are not noticeably bigger than pigeons. So although I don't know what to make of the color and wing shape described in the original posting, I don't think the size of the raptor was diagnostic. A humble birder - Gary Varner, Texas A&M Dept. of Philosophy
e343gv@tamuts.tamu.edu (Gary Varner) (11/30/90)
Oh yes, and also, peregrines' hunting styles do not fit the description very well. Peregrines either "stoop" meaning dive down on their prey from on high, or exhaust their prey by "ringing up" (as I think it's called) meaning forcing their prey to try to stay above them (so as to avoid being nailed in a stoop) thus exhausting them eventually. Another remarkable fact about peregrines is that although they have been clocked as achieving the highest velocities of any living creature, in straight and level flight a peregrine's top speed is about the same as a pigeon (e.g. carrier pigeon), about 65 MPH. In a famous incident, a WWI or WWII aviator was diving at a flock of pigeons for something like target practice (presumably he wasn't going to _hit_ them -- that would likely have damaged his airplane -- but he was using them as a moving target) and he was passed by a peregrine in a stoop. Subsequently, areodynamic studies have shown that the maximum achieveable velocity of a peregrine in a stoop would be about 250 MPH, and actual clockings (I guess with radar guns?) have verified flight speeds of around 180 or 200. So the fact that the raptor was chasing the pigeon back and forth just doesn't sound right for a peregrine, or at least not characteristic. Finally, there are lots of things bigger than a peregrine, although I can't (without a bird guide) think of what is bigger _and_ more like an accipiter or falcon than a hawk as far as its flight profile goes. Your humble birder -- Gary Varner, Texas A&M, Dept. of Philosophy
tjo@spitfire.siemens.edu (Tom Ostrand) (11/30/90)
mm@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Mike Mahler) writes: > Are peregrines bigger than a pigeon? >-- From Peterson: ROCK DOVE 13" MERLIN 10-13.5" PEREGRINE FALCON 15-20" "Known as a falcon by its pointed wings, narrow tail, and quick wingbeats, not unlike a pigeon's (Hmmm, maybe I saw a King Kong-sized pigeon chasing an ordinary pigeon :-) Size, near that of a Crow, and strong face pattern indicate this species. Adults are slaty-backed ..." -- --- Tom Ostrand Siemens Corp. Research ---
hegenberger@ecs.umass.edu (11/30/90)
> > The chase was taking place directly over the road, with the chased bird > flying back and forth across the highway, quite low. When I got > closer it became obvious that the chaser was not a gull or crow, but > some type of hawk. My first thought was Northern harrier, but what > would it be doing chasing a pigeon? As I drove right underneath the > chase, I got a reasonable look at the back of the large chaser; it > seemed to be solid gray, no white rump patch, the wings were slim > and pointed. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the bird's face. > Peregrines that i've seen have always been swift about killing their prey. coming from above and swooping down. They are supposed to hunt for fun as well as for food but this does not sound like what i have seen. What about a coopers hawk? Peregrines are bigger than a pigeon (about crow sized) I've seen them in new jersy but only on the coast. Seeing a perigrine hunt is an amazing sight. I still remember sailing off the coast of atlantic city early one fall morning thinking i was watching a jager harrassing a gull when the bird dove at the gull and killed it. We watched with amazment as the peregrine flew by our boat toward shore holding a herring gull in its claws. David Mazzarese Dept. of Chemical Engineering University of Massachusetts Amherst using a friends account (reply to this address)
grp@Unify.com (Greg Pasquariello) (11/30/90)
In article <tjo.659898158@spitfire>, tjo@spitfire.siemens.edu (Tom Ostrand) writes: > I drive to work down Rt. 1 from Edison, NJ to Princeton. On the way > I go past the Rutgers U. ag school (Cook College). This morning, > just opposite the Rutgers farm, I noticed a large bird chasing a > smaller one. The smaller was a pigeon, and the larger looked to me > (from a distance) like a crow or gull; it was basically dark all > over, and there are always hundreds of gulls and plenty of crows > around this area. > > Given the noticeable size difference between the pigeon and the > chaser, a peregrine seems to be the only possibility. Anyone know > if they are known to be in this central NJ area? > -- Yes, peregrines are regularly found in NJ. > Tom Ostrand | tjo@cadillac.siemens.com > Siemens Corporate Research | 609-734-6569 > 755 College Road East | > Princeton, NJ 08540 | -- --- Greg Pasquariello Unify Corporation grp@Unify.Com
grp@Unify.com (Greg Pasquariello) (11/30/90)
In article <3265@lectroid.sw.stratus.com>, mm@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Mike Mahler) writes: > > Are peregrines bigger than a pigeon? > -- Much larger, and in fact, pigeons make up a large part of some peregrine's diet. Peregrines range from about 15-20", while pigeons are only about 12 or 13" -- --- Greg Pasquariello Unify Corporation grp@Unify.Com
dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Conway) (12/01/90)
In article <10509@helios.TAMU.EDU> e343gv@tamuts.tamu.edu (Gary Varner) writes:
->
->So the fact that the raptor was chasing the pigeon back and forth just
->doesn't sound right for a peregrine, or at least not characteristic.
->
->Finally, there are lots of things bigger than a peregrine, although
->I can't (without a bird guide) think of what is bigger _and_ more
->like an accipiter or falcon than a hawk as far as its flight
->profile goes.
->
One thing that is bigger than a peregrine is a bald eagle...another
is a pterodactyl....8-)
Er, sorry. From the flight description (the beak-to-tail chase) and
the brief description of the bird's coloring, I would say that it
was likely a female Cooper's hawk. They can get as big as a peregrine.
--
Sam Conway * What shape do you usually have?
dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu * Mickey Mouse shape? Smarties
Chemistry Dept., Dartmouth College, NH * shape? Amphibious landing craft
Vermont Raptor Center (VINS) * shape? Poke in the eye shape?J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) (12/04/90)
In article <10509@helios.TAMU.EDU> e343gv@tamuts.tamu.edu (Gary Varner) writes: >Oh yes, and also, peregrines' hunting styles do not fit the description >very well. Peregrines either "stoop" meaning dive down on their prey >from on high, or exhaust their prey by "ringing up" (as I think it's >called) meaning forcing their prey to try to stay above them (so as >to avoid being nailed in a stoop) thus exhausting them eventually. [...] Well, that's "classic" peregrine style, but not their *only* style of hunting - not by a long way. I've seen peregrines quartering a moor in the style of a harrier. >Finally, there are lots of things bigger than a peregrine, although >I can't (without a bird guide) think of what is bigger _and_ more >like an accipiter or falcon than a hawk as far as its flight >profile goes. "...more like an accipiter of falcon tha a hawk..."? What *is* an Accipiter if it's not a hawk? Jonathan M Spencer =========================================================================== Mail : Computing Lab, University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, NE1 7RU, England Phone : +91 222 8229 ARPA : J.M.Spencer%newcastle.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk JANET : J.M.Spencer@uk.ac.newcastle UUCP : !ukc!newcastle.ac.uk!J.M.Spencer ===========================================================================
bob@delphi.uchicago.edu (Robert S. Lewis, Jr.) (12/04/90)
In article <tjo.659898158@spitfire> tjo@spitfire.siemens.edu (Tom Ostrand) writes: >Given the noticeable size difference between the pigeon and the >chaser, a peregrine seems to be the only possibility. Anyone know >if they are known to be in this central NJ area? Peregrine is certainly a possibility in central NJ. Have you ruled out all the accipiters? Their wings can occasionally look pointed and faily long.
tjo@spitfire.siemens.edu (Tom Ostrand) (12/05/90)
bob@delphi.uchicago.edu (Robert S. Lewis, Jr.) writes: >In article <tjo.659898158@spitfire> tjo@spitfire.siemens.edu (Tom Ostrand) writes: >>Given the noticeable size difference between the pigeon and the >>chaser, a peregrine seems to be the only possibility. Anyone know >>if they are known to be in this central NJ area? >Peregrine is certainly a possibility in central NJ. Have you ruled >out all the accipiters? Their wings can occasionally look pointed and >faily long. Cooper's hawk can't be absolutely ruled out, but the wing shape would certainly be atypical. Look at the drawings on page 171 of Eastern Peterson's ; my bird was practically identical to the falcon and kite profiles. I'm amazed and delighted at all the responses generated from my original posting, and I think that I have enough support from the pro-peregriners (location, shape, size, and flight pattern) to make the sighting a definite peregrine. Thanks to everyone, and I'll keep looking as I cruise down Rt 1 in the future. -- --- Tom Ostrand Siemens Corp. Research ---
psjmt@research.cc.flinders.oz (James Tizard) (12/05/90)
In article <1990Dec3.164235.14061@newcastle.ac.uk> J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) writes: > >>Finally, there are lots of things bigger than a peregrine, although >>I can't (without a bird guide) think of what is bigger _and_ more >>like an accipiter or falcon than a hawk as far as its flight >>profile goes. > >"...more like an accipiter of falcon tha a hawk..."? What *is* an >Accipiter if it's not a hawk? > >Jonathan M Spencer In England, and here in Australia too, we don't have 'hawks' as such. 'Hawk' is a lay term for smallish raptors, of which accipiters (goshawks & sparrowhawks) are one genus (family?). In the US however, things are different (suprise!). I haven't got my US field guide with me, but I do recall that there is a whole family of raptors correctly referred to as 'hawks'. One species I remeber seeing in the south was the Red Hawk (???) - a common roadside hawk of about european buzzard size. PS... Australia is a wonderful place for birds in general, & raptors in particular. For instance... The other day on the way to work, at about 8AM, I was waiting at a traffic light in inner suburban Adelaide. Suddenly, a domestic pigeon fell straight down out of the sky, landing in a puff of bloody feathers in the middle of the intersection. The pigeons' nemesis was of course a peregrine - one of a pair that nest regularly about 8 miles from the city centre. A few days later, I saw it or its' mate circling above our suburban garden. More common in the suburbs is the Australian Hobby, which I see about once a week. Other suburban raptors include Brown Goshawk, Collared Sparrowhawk, Black Shouldered Kite, Nankeen Kesterel, and a few miles into the hills, Wedge Tailed Eagle. There is an active eagle eyrie near the aptly name Eagle-on-the-Hill, about 10 miles from the city centre. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- _--_|\ James Tizard / \ Cognitive Neuroscience Laboratories \_.-*._/ Psychology Department v Flinders University of South Australia psjmt@research.cc.flinders.edu.au
grp@Unify.com (Greg Pasquariello) (12/07/90)
In article <532@research.cc.flinders.oz>, psjmt@research.cc.flinders.oz (James Tizard) writes: > From: psjmt@research.cc.flinders.oz (James Tizard) > Subject: Re: Peregrine over Route 1 in New Brunswick, NJ??? > Date: 4 Dec 90 23:27:56 GMT > Organization: Computing Services, Flinders University, S.A., Australia > > In article <1990Dec3.164235.14061@newcastle.ac.uk> J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) writes: > > > >"...more like an accipiter of falcon tha a hawk..."? What *is* an > >Accipiter if it's not a hawk? > > > >Jonathan M Spencer > > In England, and here in Australia too, we don't have 'hawks' as such. > 'Hawk' is a lay term for smallish raptors, of which accipiters > (goshawks & sparrowhawks) are one genus (family?). In the US however, things > are different (suprise!). I haven't got my US field guide with me, but > I do recall that there is a whole family of raptors correctly referred > to as 'hawks'. One species I remeber seeing in the south was the Red Hawk > (???) - a common roadside hawk of about european buzzard size. > In America it goes something like this... All raptors (American Vultures and eagles excluded) are loosely termed hawks. Buteos, which in Europe are called Buzzards, are here called Hawks (i.e. Red tailed Hawk). A Buzzard in America, generally refers to a New World Vulture, and usually to the Turkey Vulture. Accipiters are also called hawks, as they are in Europe. Falcons are falcons, unless they are Duck Hawks (Peregrine), Sparrow Hawks (Kestrel) or Pigeon Hawks (Merlin). Note that our Sparrow Hawk is a falcon and the European Sparrow Hawk is an Accipiter! Kites are always kites. Praise be. The Osprey is also called a Fish Hawk, or Fish Eagle. The Marsh Hawk is not a hawk, but a harrier, and is not a Marsh Harrier, but is a Northern Harrier. Yikes! Lord only knows _what_ a Caracara is. Now let's talk Robins... > _--_|\ James Tizard > psjmt@research.cc.flinders.edu.au -- --- Greg Pasquariello Unify Corporation grp@Unify.Com
J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) (12/07/90)
In article <532@research.cc.flinders.oz> psjmt@research.cc.flinders.oz (James Tizard) writes: >In article <1990Dec3.164235.14061@newcastle.ac.uk> J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) writes: >> >>>Finally, there are lots of things bigger than a peregrine, although >>>I can't (without a bird guide) think of what is bigger _and_ more >>>like an accipiter or falcon than a hawk as far as its flight >>>profile goes. >> >>"...more like an accipiter of falcon tha a hawk..."? What *is* an >>Accipiter if it's not a hawk? >> >>Jonathan M Spencer > >In England, and here in Australia too, we don't have 'hawks' as such. >'Hawk' is a lay term for smallish raptors, of which accipiters >(goshawks & sparrowhawks) are one genus (family?). In the US however, things >are different (suprise!). I haven't got my US field guide with me, but >I do recall that there is a whole family of raptors correctly referred >to as 'hawks'. One species I remeber seeing in the south was the Red Hawk >(???) - a common roadside hawk of about european buzzard size. I'm sorry, but you've rather missed the point. While the layman might refer to any raptor as a hawk, and falconers might define a hawk as "any diurnal bird of prey used for falconry", the more strict definitions classify *just* Accipiters to be the true hawks, Falco are the falcons, and Buteo the buzzards. Hence, the American common name for the redtailed hawk is incorrect since the redtail is _Buteo jamaicensis_ - it is a buzzard, not a hawk. Thus my question "what is an Accipiter if it's not a hawk" is correct.
andrewt@cs.su.oz (Andrew Taylor) (12/08/90)
In article <1990Dec7.092805.6604@newcastle.ac.uk> J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) writes: > the more strict definitions classify *just* Accipiters to be the true hawks Such definitions are well out of date. By my count there are ~10 genera containing species with --- Hawk as their recommended English name. Andrew