rmura@world.std.com (Ron Mura) (12/12/90)
yIn article <1990Dec10.190648.13702@cbnewsj.att.com> donnelly@cbnewsj.att.com (jeffrey.m.donnelly) writes: > > We want a bird who will know and show affection for us and seek the same > from us. From our research, cockatiels seem to fit this general description. > > 1. Is a cockatiel a good match for inexperienced bird owners. Are they > hard to care for? Not really, but in general people underestimate the amount of care that a pet will require. If it gets ill, for example, you may have to force-feed medicine into its beak twice a day for weeks, even months. (This is true of most birds, not just cockatiels.) > 2. The bird would be alone during the day M-F. Is this bad for the bird > I.e would it be cruel to leave it alone 9 hours a day? Probably not cruel, but not ideal either. They are social creatures and like company. If you have to leave it alone, consider leaving a radio on. > 3. Do cockatiels like a cage or would it rather live an a larger enclosed > area? Friends from way back owned a large parrot. They had a natural > like setting in the corner in their living room with rope netting as > a boundary. Would a bird love this? Yes, it would like an open area or very large cage. Watch out for windows and mirrors, which inexperienced or frightened birds may fly into. Also, some birds gnaw wood or even electrical cords. > 4. Do they need consistent daytime/nighttime hours? Would the bird rather > be with us in the living room at night while we watch tv or read or would > it rather sleep in the dark in the evening? A matter of discussion. I think they do need consistent hours from day to day, but that 12 hours of darkness are not required. I've read that young birds need more sleep, so they shouldn't be allowed to stay up late with you; don't know if that is true or not. > 5. What age bird should we look to get? I'm looking for a lower and upper > bound. Any specific things to look out for? (like never get one with > glossy eyes cause its sick) If you want it to bond with you, a young bird is probably easier, unless the bird is already tame of course. I would watch out for a bird with any discharge around the cere/nose. Loose droppings are often a bad sign. Tail bobbing is a sign a respiratory distress in parakeets; I'm not sure if that is also true of cockatiels. > 6. Lastly, where's the best place to get a bird? Mall, breeder...? > If you live in south New Jersey (monmouth/ocean) what bird stores are good? > Have you heard about "Bird Jungle"? I would avoid pet stores, especially the chain stores (even if you get a healthy bird from them, many use inhumane practices). I would try a breeder. If there is an avian vet in your area, you could ask for recommendations. Actually, my first choice (since I wouldn't mind an older bird) would be an animal shelter. They don't get as many birds as other pets, but they let you handle them, etc., to see if there is "a fit" and you help a creature that few people want. One other thing: always give your bird vegetables--fresh ones every day. -- - Ron Mura, Boston, Mass. rmura@world.std.com
ellen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Ellen Osinski) (12/15/90)
Subject: Re: INDOOR - Novice questions about pet birds
> One other thing: always give your bird vegetables--fresh ones every day.
Our bird REFUSES to eat veggies, fruit, rice,... And we have given up trying
to force her. We tried the route of 'forcing' her by removing her other
food for a few days. She would rather starve then eat soft, mushy, strange-
looking stuff. She is 5 years old and very healthy and strong because she is
free to fly around. She gets bird vitamins in her water every day.
I have read that because wild cockatiels are so secretive in their
behavior in the wild that not much is known about their diet. It is not
known whether they are strict seed eaters or not.
Ellen
and
Jasmine (Ruler of the roost)rmura@world.std.com (Ron Mura) (12/16/90)
In article <2730005@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com> ellen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Ellen Osinski) writes: > >> One other thing: always give your bird vegetables--fresh ones every day. > > Our bird REFUSES to eat veggies, fruit, rice,... And we have given up trying > to force her. We tried the route of 'forcing' her by removing her other > food for a few days. She would rather starve then eat soft, mushy, strange- > looking stuff. She is 5 years old and very healthy and strong because she is > free to fly around. She gets bird vitamins in her water every day. In the wild birds learn from observing other birds, so it sometimes hard to get a bird to eat new things if there aren't others around setting an example. I agree that I wouldn't try to "force" the bird, but I would keep trying. Sometimes birds will "bathe" in wet greens, then learn to have fun tearing vegetables apart, and then finally to eat a little bit in the process. Still, maybe some birds will never catch on... Sounds like your bird is doing pretty well with exercise and vitamins. -- - Ron Mura, Boston, Mass. rmura@world.std.com
bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) (12/16/90)
In article <2730005@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com> ellen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Ellen Osinski) writes: >Subject: Re: INDOOR - Novice questions about pet birds > >> One other thing: always give your bird vegetables--fresh ones every day. > >Our bird REFUSES to eat veggies, fruit, rice,... And we have given up trying >to force her. We tried the route of 'forcing' her by removing her other >food for a few days. She would rather starve then eat soft, mushy, strange- Well, you came pretty close to the death alternative. You should *never* deny food to a bird. Their digestive systems cannot take fasting. Bob Church bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu
hubler@tomcat.lerc.nasa.gov (Dale Hubler) (12/17/90)
In article <2730005@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com> ellen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Ellen Osinski) writes: >> One other thing: always give your bird vegetables--fresh ones every day. > >Our bird REFUSES to eat veggies, fruit, rice,... And we have given up trying Try mixing the seeds with the vegetables, rice, etc. If the bird must pick through the healthy stuff to get the seeds, it may learn that it likes soft food. Try mixing vegetables, cheese, beans or greens in Jiffy corn bread batter and baking per directions on box. The bird may like that. Perseverance and creativity are very important in modifying a birds diet and a few attempts (or even 50) may not be enough. Keep trying for the birds sake, they are not always particularly willing. -- Dale A. Hubler *** hubler@galaxy.lerc.nasa.gov *** (216) 433-5649
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (12/17/90)
In article <2707@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU> bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) writes: >Well, you came pretty close to the death alternative. You should *never* deny >food to a bird. Their digestive systems cannot take fasting. Very true! I don't know how many stories I've heard of people inadvertently starving their birds to death trying to get them to switch their food. I'm really glad that this didn't happen here because the owner was smart enough to see that it wasn't doing the bird any good to try to force it. However, I have a few suggestions. First, if you are converting a bird from seed to pellets, do it gradually, over a 4 week period or more. Start either with offering pellets only during the morning, then after an hour or two, remove the pellets and offer a 50/50 mix of seed to pellets. Gradually cut down on the amount of seed and increase the amount of pellets. But be sure to do this over a long period of time, and watch the bird's droppings. If the droppings are predominantly green, the bird is NOT eating the pellets and you should make sure that there are enough seeds to sustain him. Birds can be really finicky. If you are happy with feeding seeds, there are a few ways to add more nutrition to the diet. One is by feeding nekton-s in the water (or on the food) and adding vionate minerals. Another way is to give peanut butter sandwiches (cut really small for cockatiels), corn bread with nekton and vionate baked in, pasta (many birds are just wild over pasta), kale (I've never seen a cockatiel refuse kale...I'm sure there's one somewhere in the world :-)), spinach, or offer the bird a bite of an apple or banana that YOU are eating. If the bird sees you eating it, he knows that it's food. Oftentimes, birds won't eat pellets or new foods because they don't identify it as food. If YOU eat it, then a tame bird will get the idea. Especially if you often give treats from your plate. Mikki Barry mommy to 35 cockatiels (and counting)
ellen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Ellen Osinski) (12/17/90)
>>> One other thing: always give your bird vegetables--fresh ones every day. >> >>Our bird REFUSES to eat veggies, fruit, rice,... And we have given up trying >>to force her. We tried the route of 'forcing' her by removing her other >>food for a few days. She would rather starve then eat soft, mushy, strange- > >Well, you came pretty close to the death alternative. You should *never* deny >food to a bird. Their digestive systems cannot take fasting. Not at all. I gave in well before she did. BTW this method was the 'method of choice' recommended by a local well-known bird breeder! Ellen and Jasmine (Ruler of the roost)
hubler@tomcat.lerc.nasa.gov (Dale Hubler) (12/19/90)
In article <276CE3AE.3CB6@intercon.com> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: > > corn bread with >nekton and vionate baked in, pasta (many birds are just wild over pasta), That is a subject I have always wondered about. When I bake corn bread for my birds I add various foods that I have at hand. I also add powdered kelp, which I believe is high in minerals. If I add some vitamins such as vionate or nekton, does the heat in the oven destroy the vitamin content? Has anybody studied this or even have an intuitive feel? Thanks in advance for any info! Dale Hubler -- Dale A. Hubler *** hubler@galaxy.lerc.nasa.gov *** (216) 977-7014
freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) (12/19/90)
in article <2707@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU>, bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) says: > >>Our bird REFUSES to eat veggies, fruit, rice,... And we have given up trying >>to force her. We tried the route of 'forcing' her by removing her other >>food for a few days. She would rather starve then eat soft, mushy, strange- One of our cockatoos is the also very finicky. Seed, corn, and papaya. Offer her anything else and she responds by running away with a disgusted look. > > Well, you came pretty close to the death alternative. You should *never* deny > food to a bird. Their digestive systems cannot take fasting. > This may be overreacting. We tried taking all her favorites away in order to force her to eat other things. After 36 hours of not eating anything, WE gave in 'cause we couldn't stand seeing her go hungry. Our vet ( a VERY good avian vet) tells us they can go three days without any problem. > Bob Church > bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu -- Fred Sieg | freds@ast.com -or- ...!uunet!legs!freds AST Research Inc. | Fax: (714) 727-9358 Tel: (714) 727-8465 If any opinions were expressed, they are my own and not those of my employer (who would NEVER express an opinion).
helen@argosy.UUCP (Helen Kastner) (12/20/90)
>>> One other thing: always give your bird vegetables--fresh ones every day. >> >>Our bird REFUSES to eat veggies, fruit, rice,... And we have given up trying > > Try mixing the seeds with the vegetables, rice, etc. If the bird must The best way to get my cockatoo to try new foods is to eat them in front of him. Unfortunately, he likes junk just as much as the rest of us--pepperoni pizza, chili verde burritos (especially the meat)--but he will still eat just about anything I have, including veggies. He likes mashed stuff--potatoes (white and yellow), mushed peas and carrots, etc. But you'd be amazed at how far he can fling food he doesn't like--brussel sprouts flew across the room. hk
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (12/25/90)
In article <3175@legs.UUCP> freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) writes: >This may be overreacting. We tried taking all her favorites away in >order to force her to eat other things. After 36 hours of not eating >anything, WE gave in 'cause we couldn't stand seeing her go hungry. >Our vet ( a VERY good avian vet) tells us they can go three days without >any problem. Um, I don't want to start a "my vet is better than your vet" fight, but keeping food away from a bird for three days is really stupid. A bird's metabolism is so much faster than a humans, that it would be like keeping food away from a human for a week. Without any problem? WRONG! Sorry for the pissy tone, but I have seen too many "very good" avian vets kill birds. Telling owners that their bird can go without food for three days sends up a clear signal to me that this person is a quack. Remember, all it takes to say you are an avian vet is a membership in the Association of Avian Veterinarians. They do NOT check credentials. Mikki Barry
hubler@tomcat.lerc.nasa.gov (Dale Hubler) (12/26/90)
In article <27766494.2CA@intercon.com> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >In article <3175@legs.UUCP> freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) writes: > >>This may be overreacting. We tried taking all her favorites away in >>order to force her to eat other things. After 36 hours of not eating >>anything, WE gave in 'cause we couldn't stand seeing her go hungry. >>Our vet ( a VERY good avian vet) tells us they can go three days without ?????????^^^^??????????? >>any problem. > B Would you deny food to your dog for 3 days in an attempt to change its diet? Would you deny food to the cat for 3 days? How about 3 days for yourself What vet would recommend 3 days for any animal? If you must try the hunger/starvation route for diet modification, then deny the favored food during the daytime. In the evening you should relent and return the favored food to the cage, whether the bird has tried the new food or not. They really do need to eat every day. -- Dale A. Hubler *** hubler@galaxy.lerc.nasa.gov *** (216) 977-7014
freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) (12/29/90)
in article <1990Dec26.143531.15098@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov>, hubler@tomcat.lerc.nasa.gov (Dale Hubler) says: > > In article <27766494.2CA@intercon.com> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >>In article <3175@legs.UUCP> freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) writes: >> >>>This may be overreacting. We tried taking all her favorites away in >>>order to force her to eat other things. After 36 hours of not eating >>>anything, WE gave in 'cause we couldn't stand seeing her go hungry. >>>Our vet ( a VERY good avian vet) tells us they can go three days without > ?????????^^^^??????????? >>>any problem. >> > Would you deny food to your dog for 3 days in an attempt to change its diet? > Would you deny food to the cat for 3 days? > > How about 3 days for yourself We did not deny food. We took away her standard fare and offered a multitude of other foods. In fact, she had more food available during this time than usual. She chose not to eat it. The vet said that she might and could have gone for three days without harm. > What vet would recommend 3 days for any animal? The same vet that takes care of the birds at Universal Studios and runs a raptor rehab center. He has taken care of our two healthy, happy cockatoos through illness and accident. I would take his advice and more importantly, in this context, pass his opinion to other net folks any day. Addressing a dietary problem under the care of a physician is not stupid. A vet with these credentials is not a quack. I am not a vet and don't presume to know better. I did find a VERY good avian vet to entrust the care of our "children" to and heed his advice. Fred -- Fred Sieg | freds@ast.com -or- ...!uunet!legs!freds AST Research Inc. | Fax: (714) 727-9358 Tel: (714) 727-8465 If any opinions were expressed, they are my own and not those of my employer (who would NEVER express an opinion).
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (01/01/91)
In article <3182@legs.UUCP>, freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) writes: > We did not deny food. We took away her standard fare and offered a > multitude of other foods. In fact, she had more food available during > this time than usual. She chose not to eat it. The vet said that she > might and could have gone for three days without harm. That's a pretty bold statement for any vet to make. And I don't see any difference between witholding food, and witholding food the bird will eat. After one day, one of my Moluccans lost approximately 15% of his body weight. The bird was tubed to maintain his health. > The same vet that takes care of the birds at Universal Studios and runs > a raptor rehab center. He has taken care of our two healthy, happy > cockatoos through illness and accident. I would take his advice and more > importantly, in this context, pass his opinion to other net folks any > day. > > Addressing a dietary problem under the care of a physician is not > stupid. A vet with these credentials is not a quack. > I am not a vet and don't presume to know better. I did find a VERY good > avian vet to entrust the care of our "children" to and heed his advice. Unfortunately, credentials or no, many vets ARE quacks. Take, for example, a vet that bills himself as an "expert" with multiple letters after his name in this area. 54% of all the birds he ever put under anesthesia died. Your vet may be wonderful, full of knowledge, and the one of the greatest people in the world. However, I still maintain that advising a client that 3 days without food is ok, is reckless. Mikki Barry --
rjacobs@gara.une.oz.au ( ABRI) (01/02/91)
The discussion about fasting a bird for 3 days is an interesting one, because it invokes a knowledge of avian physiology and behaviour which is lacking in many of us. I know very little about cockatoos, but the vet who advised food to be with held from the cockatoo may have been right or wrong. He is a vet with experience with raptors and it is common to remove food from medium size to large size birds of prey for several days in order to get them to come to the fist. My first Harris Hawk refused to eat for 7 days before she would eat off my fist. Although, this is quite worrying for a beginner, raptors will rarely starve themselves to death. In the case of the cockatoo (as in the case of raptors) I guess the length of period that it is safe to fast depends on the birds condition, weight, metabolism, room temperature, health etc. In general smaller birds need to eat more regularly than larger ones and therefore, smaller birds can't be fasted as long as larger birds. Since the cockatoo had food available, I guess it never got hungry enough to try the newer food. I didn't see the original posting, so I don't know what was done to introduce the new food. But it may have been better to introduce the new food slowly by adding with the old food and/or letting the bird eat in close proximity to a bird who did eat the new food. So I can't still can't pass an opinion whether the vet was right or wrong. A 15% loss in body weight by the cockatoo that was ill would be worrying, but since the bird was ill the loss in weight was much higher than you'd expect in a healthy sedentry cockatoo.
hubler@tomcat.lerc.nasa.gov (Dale Hubler) (01/02/91)
In article <3182@legs.UUCP> freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) writes: >>> > >We did not deny food. We took away her standard fare and offered a >multitude of other foods. In fact, she had more food available during >this time than usual. She chose not to eat it. The vet said that she >might and could have gone for three days without harm. > >The same vet that takes care of the birds at Universal Studios and runs >a raptor rehab center. He has taken care of our two healthy, happy >cockatoos through illness and accident. I would take his advice and more >importantly, in this context, pass his opinion to other net folks any >day. > >Addressing a dietary problem under the care of a physician is not >stupid. A vet with these credentials is not a quack. >I am not a vet and don't presume to know better. I did find a VERY good >avian vet to entrust the care of our "children" to and heed his advice. I apologize for trying to make my point in a sarcastic manner. I was really trying to point out that 3 days of starvation seems rather drastic for any type of animal, let alone a bird with a higher metabolism than us. I still believe that 3 days is very severe on a bird. How would you feel after three days? I am sure it would not kill you, but it does seem to be a rather harsh way to force you to eat new foods. If the bird does not recognize the new items as food, then they are not food. It is not that she does not choose to eat the food, she genuinely does not know it is food. Being a vet at a raptor rehab center does not necessarily mean that he knows all about pet birds. I believe raptors and tropical birds have very different diets and needs. My vet has made mistakes, I have made mistakes, and I am sure most others have also, including your vet. I would go so far as to suggest that you discuss this with your vet and let him further consider this opinion. I believe the best way to modify a birds diet is to rely on our superior creativity and intelligence to "trick" them into trying new foods. Sometimes this can be done by letting the bird go hungry for a short time. Three days does seem a bit too much. Dale Hubler -- Dale A. Hubler *** hubler@galaxy.lerc.nasa.gov *** (216) 977-7014
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (01/04/91)
In article <5120@gara.une.oz.au>, rjacobs@gara.une.oz.au ( ABRI) writes: > So I can't still can't pass an opinion whether the vet was right or wrong. > A 15% loss in body weight by the cockatoo that was ill would be worrying, > but since the bird was ill the loss in weight was much higher than you'd > expect in a healthy sedentry cockatoo. That doesn't really follow. Illness shouldn't have anything to do with the amount of weight lost. Food intake is the only reason a bird would lose weight unless he has a condition that robs the bird of nutrition. The cockatoo had a bacterial infection that had no relation to the amount of weight lost. Mikki Barry --
rjacobs@gara.une.oz.au ( ABRI) (01/04/91)
In article <2783609A.4D73@intercon.com>, ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: > In article <5120@gara.une.oz.au>, rjacobs@gara.une.oz.au ( ABRI) writes: > > So I can't still can't pass an opinion whether the vet was right or wrong. > > A 15% loss in body weight by the cockatoo that was ill would be worrying, > > but since the bird was ill the loss in weight was much higher than you'd > > expect in a healthy sedentry cockatoo. > > That doesn't really follow. Illness shouldn't have anything to do with the > amount of weight lost. Food intake is the only reason a bird would lose > weight unless he has a condition that robs the bird of nutrition. The cockatoo > had a bacterial infection that had no relation to the amount of weight lost. > > Mikki Barry > -- A bacterial infection will increase metabolic rate as the bird attempts to put its immune response into high gear. The increase in metabolic rate will lead to an increase in the consumption of metabolic substrates such as carbohydrates, fats and proteins. If the bird has stopped eating, then these substrates are supplied by the stores within the birds body rather than its daily food. In this case, the bird will lose weight faster than if it did not suffer an infection. A similar effect is seen in birds during cold weather. They increase their metabolic rate to maintain body temperature and therefore need more food to provide the metabolic substrates. If food is limiting they lose body weight. A bird that is fasted and lives in a cold climate will lose weight faster than if it lived in a warm climate. I hope this clears up the matter of the cockatoo. Ross Jacobs
dkletter@adobe.COM (SUGAR in their vitamins?) (01/05/91)
i'm not sure i understand why the original poster just left the food with the bird. i mean, birds like cockatoos and other parots don't just eat anything you hand them just like that. they're like kids. i usually eat the stuff i want to feed my yellow-naped amazon first so that she can see that i enjoy it too. not only does this pique her interest, but it shows her that she can trust me because i am >sharing< my good food, not forcing weird greens on her. it's the old monkey-see monkey-do trick. in fact, my cockatiel has taught the amazon to like certain foods and vice versa simply by watching the other eat it and wanting to be "in" on this great game. -- Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
ron@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ron Miller) (01/18/91)
Re: Finicky eaters Our finicky eater learned to eat frozen veggies by finding them in his "treat dish" and was reinforced by watching another bird eat the scary stuff. Now he eats most everthing! Ron