tp@ndm20 (11/04/85)
/* Written 4:23 pm Oct 31, 1985 by gordon@sneaky in ndm20:net.news.notes */ /* ---------- "mod.computers.* vs. notes" ---------- */ It is true that news/notes software that limits names to 14 characters is obsolete. It is NOT true that software that wants names to be UNIQUE IN THE FIRST 14 CHARACTERS is obsolete. Unless something radical has been done to notes since it was posted to net.sources (and my current version is a little newer than that), the NEWEST version notes still insists that notesfile names be unique in the first 14 characters (unless you're running 4.2bsd, or its successors or clones). This insistence can be satisified by suitable use of the aliasing facility, but it requires cooperation of lots of sites to do it, and it's never been done before. (net.religion.christian is NOT a counterexample. It is unique in 14 characters from net.religion.jewish, etc. It wasn't unique in 14 characters from net.religion.ctl, but that wasn't a real newsgroup.) Tacking the chopped off end of the full name back on has been done before, but this is different. It requires cooperation on both sides of the link, and invention of a new naming convention for use only by the shortnames notes sites, one much different than "take the long name and chop it at 14 characters". The recent renaming of fa.* groups to mod.* groups causes a problem that notes can properly handle, if the notes sites will work together. Notes has aliasing facilities that can be used to resolve the naming problem. The new version of notes has this, and even moderately old versions do. Maybe even the really old versions do. In order for this to work, someone needs to post what all the new names are, preferably along with what the old name it is replacing was! Definitions: longnames site: one running (reasonably recent) news or one running 4.2bsd (or later) and notes, and thus can handle long names. shortnames site: a site running notes and v7, sysIII, sysV, 4.1bsd, or something else that can't handle long names. If you gate news into notes, and your os can't handle long names, you are a shortnames site, and you talk to a longnames site (news, even if it's just news on your own system). obsolete site: one running a version of news that won't handle long names, or running notes without an aliasing facility. I propose the following naming scheme be set up for shortnames notes sites only, to avoid putting several groups in one big notesfile: mod.computers -> mod.comp (does this exist?) mod.computers.* -> mod.comp.* mod.protocols -> mod.proto (does this exist?) mod.protocols.* -> mod.proto.* (Design considerations of this proposal: don't change anything that isn't ambiguous within the first 14 characters, even if the name isn't particularly clear because the last component gets chopped to one character. Rename the main group to keep it the main group of the renamed subgroups. mod.comp was suggested by a couple of people on the net.) I do not have a complete list of the new groups as created, so these examples aren't going to be complete. Does someone have a complete list? If you are an obsolete site, UPGRADE! If you are a longnames site, and talk only to other longnames sites, do nothing. (This includes all you news sites, remember, so don't flame me yet). If you are a shortnames site, and talk only to other shortnames sites, do nothing, but be prepared for receiving new notesfiles with the new names if anyone pays any attention to this proposal. If you are a longnames site, and talk to shortname sites, insert in your /usr/spool/notes/.utilities/net.aliases/<site> file (where site is each shortnames notes site): mod.computers:mod.comp mod.computers.vax:mod.comp.vax mod.computers.sun:mod.comp.sun mod.computers.laser-printers:mod.comp.laser mod.protocols:mod.proto mod.protocols.tcp-ip:mod.proto.tcp-ip mod.protocols.kermit:mod.proto.kermit ... etc ... (If you put something that goes over 14 characters on the right side, the shortnames site will chop it, so you don't have to bother chopping it yourself.) If you are a shortnames site, and you talk to longnames sites, insert in your /usr/spool/notes/.utilities/net.aliases/<site> file (where site is each longnames notes site) mod.comp:mod.computers mod.comp.vax:mod.computers.vax mod.comp.sun:mod.computers.sun mod.comp.laser:mod.computers.laser-printers mod.proto:mod.protocols mod.proto.tcp-:mod.protocols.tcp-ip mod.proto.kerm:mod.protocols.kermit ... etc ... You should already have lines in there for groups whose true names go over 14 characters, like net.announce.n:net.announce.newusers net.unix-wizar:net.unix-wizards net.religion.c:net.religion.christian net.religion.j:net.religion.jewish ... etc ... so that local submissions to those groups are sent back to the group they came from on the longnames site. Note that even some of my proposed new names run over 14 characters, but they are all unique in the first 14. Shortnames sites need to use the chopped name for entries corresponding to the local notesfile name of the group. Also, if you are a shortnames site and gate notes to news or news to notes, insert the same lines in your /usr/spool/notes/.utilities/newsgroups file. Gordon Burditt ...!convex!ctvax!trsvax!sneaky!gordon ...!microsoft!trsvax!sneaky!gordon /* End of text from ndm20:net.news.notes */
tp@ndm20 (11/04/85)
/* Written 7:27 am Nov 4, 1985 by tp@ndm20 in ndm20:net.news.notes */
Are you sure that a shortname site must use the alias feature on any
name that is longer than 14 characters? I don't use the alias
feature at all. I am a shortname site connected to a longname site.
As long as I pass all the notes utilities the long name, all works
well. I think that your proposal is correct except that there is no
reason to avoid mod.proto.kermit:mod.protocols.kermit in the
shortname site's alias file, and no need whatsoever to put in an
alias for things like net.religion.christian.
Your proposal is good, but such hassles should not be neccessary.
Since all non-4.2 notes sites have this problem, ALL GROUP NAMES
SHOULD BE UNIQUE IN THE FIRST 14 CHARACTERS. There is no reason for
not doing this. Mr. Fair has unilateraly decided to do it, despite
response before and after in net.news.group that the names should be
shortened. His only response so far is upgrade or tough luck. He
has decided that it is acceptable (to him) to force all non-4.2 notes
administrators to go through the hassles of maintaining alias files,
a hassle that they have never had to worry about before. This is an
ongoing concern. It is a safe bet that future names invented by him
will have a similar lack of concern for the rest of the net.
The proper solution is to RENAME THE DAMNED GROUPS. That is the only
solution that makes sense. Besides, if a shortname site with a
redundant feed refuses to hassle with the alias files, the groups
will cross-pollenate, so to speak.
Terry Poot
Nathan D. Maier Consulting Engineers
(214)739-4741
Usenet: ...!{allegra|ihnp4}!convex!smu!ndm20!tp
CSNET: ndm20!tp@smu
ARPA: ndm20!tp%smu@csnet-relay.ARPA
/* End of text from ndm20:net.news.notes */bees@infoswx.UUCP (11/06/85)
I agree with those who propose keeping groups unique within the first 14 characters, for now. Let's keep the net running smoothly. Let's pretend that most of the sites on this net were running 4.2 and notes. A group of us want to create newsgroups like: net.howmuchwoodcouldawoodchuckchuckifawoodchuckcouldchuckwood.games Well, this works just fine for most of us. 4.2 has no problem with that as a filename. Now all you netnews or 4.1 or V7 or System [35] sites say, "Wait a minute! We can't handle that!". Now how would you feel if we said, "You people have had over a year to fix your versions of notes/netnews/UNIX to be compatible with the rest of the net, so too bad. Suffer." Sure, you could kludge up a <4.2 system to use massive aliases or store the above as: net/howmuchwoodcou/ldawoodchuckch/uckifawoodchuc/kcouldchuckwoo/d/games but this wouldn't be real nice, would it. As a future plan, I suggest that notes be modified to store it's notesfiles in a hierarchy instead of all on one level. Instead of a directory ~notes/net.micro.amiga, notes could store networked notesfiles in ~notes/net/micro/amiga. This is exactly how netnews does it, and would allow better compatibility between the two. Of course, 4.2 still allows those directory names to be >14 characters, so there would have to be a built in constraint, at least with networked notesfiles. Then after everyone is up to snuff we can take the 14 character constraint off, and have names as long as we want. Ray Davis Teknekron Infoswitch, Richardson, TX infoswx!bees, (214)644-0570